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This is a poll specifically for those for whom playing the game (of warhammer, 40k, WM, Hordes, FoW, etc) is the prime focus of their hobby and painting and modeling is not at all a priority for them. Anyone is welcome to discuss, but if you like painting and modeling please don't vote. The Question is:

For those of you who are first, foremost and (nearly) only gamers what is the absolute minimum visual/tactile representation you would be willing to game (a tabletop miniatures wargame ruleset) with?*

I'm purposely leaving out mention of online 40k methods as they are not usually played face to face on a gaming table. Also, I appologize that my list is ordered in my opinion of most, to least representative. I recognize that some folks will not agree with the progression.

*This poll assumes you'd be able to find an opponent to game the same way.

Unpainted, non WYSIWYG armies

Because that's how I started. If I had not been allowed to join in games like that then I would not have started playing. Hence I have no problem with others fielding minis the same.

Although 12 months on I like to have my minis painted even if not 100% complete (detailed, decorated bases) - lots of Orks and so little time. And I do mostly model correct weapons now too

This is an odd poll... I am not sure what you are trying to figure out.

I would have added an option for 'this poll does not apply to me because I love painting' because I suspect most people will vote before even reading the disclaimer not to vote.

Eilif wrote:This is a poll specifically for those for whom playing the game of warhammer or 40k is the prime focus of their hobby and painting and modeling is not at all a priority for them. Anyone is welcome to discuss, but if you like painting and modeling please don't vote.

Are you certain this is 40k-related?

The part in bold sounds more like WarmaHordes players.

So because I like painting and modelling as well as playing you don't want me to vote?

nkelsch wrote:This is an odd poll... I am not sure what you are trying to figure out.

I'm curious about those who are primarily interested in just the gaming aspect, specifically, how essential miniatures are to their gaming experience. I'm interested in the opinions of folks who view the game differently than myself (I'm in it for the painted toys).

AvatarForm wrote:
Are you certain this is 40k-related? The part in bold sounds more like WarmaHordes players.

Good point, this could relate to any wargame. I'll edit the first post accordingly.

brettz123 wrote:So because I like painting and modelling as well as playing you don't want me to vote?

Precisely. I didn't vote either.

There are already plenty of polls about proxies, counts as, WYSIWYG, etc that seem to be aimed at those who place a high value on the miniatures aspect of this hobby. This poll is different.

Unpainted WYSIWYG. If there's one thing I HATE doing in a game is constantly, over and over again asking what each squad is/does and what wargear it does or doesn't have. I know what proper wargear looks like, which smooths the game out considerably. The exception to this is some slight 'counts as' so long as its army wide, like "All my chainswords are powerswords" for power blobs or something similar.

Ok, the scale is a bit off for me I find paper models acceptable under certain circumstances and some professionally designed cardstock terrain is far better than most of what I make myself.
There is no way i would ever play against toy army men, they dont have even remotely close to the right size base, not even the right shape. Base size matters a whole lot in warmachine and while i can let the close sizes of 40k bases slide for people who are just trying out the game 1 inch long peanut shapes will not work.
I would let new players proxy models or let anyone proxy newly released models to try before they bought them, whether that be other models, cardboard cutouts, or just paper circles with pictures and names printed on them. If someone had a good reason they couldnt save up and slowly build an army then paper would be acceptable on a long term basis as long as they fit the requirements of the game (base size, proper height, easily distinguished, etc.). I draw the line at people having some other army but claim they can't get the new one they want to proxy though, especially if they are buying other gaming or entertainment items.

This poll is unclear. Specifically, the title: "That's the minimum visual representation you'd play with?"

Does this mean "that i'd field" or does this mean "that i'd play with", i.e. be OK with my opponent fielding?

(Please don't vote if you like painting/modeling)

What does this even mean???

Ouze wrote:

(Please don't vote if you like painting/modeling)

What does this even mean???

I hadnt noticed this before...

This is completely for Warmahordes players now...

Afterall, if you only wanted to play games, you wouldnt even base your minis... and Im certain the vast majority of 40k/wfb players game alongside the hobby aspect. It's not like the system is suppoted on quality rules alone

What's the point in polling people on how much painting they want on figures being played with and then specifically trying to exclude the people that put the most emphasis on painting in the hobby?

If you ask a group of people to whom "painting and modeling is not at all a priority" don't be surprised if the result is a large number of people saying they are happy to play with unpainted figures. Stands to reason, what does it prove other than you can manipulate the result of a poll by selecting those most likely to answer a certain way?

AvatarForm wrote:

Ouze wrote:

(Please don't vote if you like painting/modeling)

What does this even mean???

I hadnt noticed this before...

This is completely for Warmahordes players now...
:

What are you talking about? I see more support to painting and releases of hobby articles at PP than GW... I find your fixation on labeling warmahordes fans as non caring for the hobby quite stange.

OP- Dont understand your pool mate, its like asking a drunk group if they like drinking.

NAVARRO wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:

Ouze wrote:

(Please don't vote if you like painting/modeling)

What does this even mean???

I hadnt noticed this before...

This is completely for Warmahordes players now...
:

What are you talking about? I see more support to painting and releases of hobby articles at PP than GW... I find your fixation on labeling warmahordes fans as non caring for the hobby quite stange.

What are you talking about? We are discussing the players, not PP or GW... you are confusiong consumer for business in your ever-eagerness to disagree with me...

Ever been to a Warmahordes tournament? Ever competed in the nationals?

It is a sea of bare metal... last year there were 3 forces that had paint on them, but not even tabletop standard.

If it's WYSIWYG then I don't care how painted it is. Though obviously, it's much nicer when both armies are painted and WYSIWYG, because that's the way the game is intended to be played.

AvatarForm wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:

Ouze wrote:

(Please don't vote if you like painting/modeling)

What does this even mean???

I hadnt noticed this before...

This is completely for Warmahordes players now...
:

What are you talking about? I see more support to painting and releases of hobby articles at PP than GW... I find your fixation on labeling warmahordes fans as non caring for the hobby quite stange.

What are you talking about? We are discussing the players, not PP or GW... you are confusiong consumer for business in your ever-eagerness to disagree with me...

Ever been to a Warmahordes tournament? Ever competed in the nationals?

It is a sea of bare metal... last year there were 3 forces that had paint on them, but not even tabletop standard.

If you dont see a direct relation of a company policy towards promoting the painting/ modelling and the kind of people it attracts is not my problem.
Also you refer to the "players" of that game has you actually know them all. Diferent countries, diferent people, diferent clubs, diferent associations diferent ratio of painted armies... seems silly to label every single warmahordes folk as non painter just because your very limited prespective tells you so.

Personally I am fine with playing games with counters (board wargames), games with unpainted tokens (Doom, Twilight Imperium III, games of 40K with non-GW models as long as they are painted, and other tabletop wargames using 2D print out units.



So there are three options in the poll that apply to me, but I am not allowed to respond, and if I could, I could only select one option.

NAVARRO wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:

Ouze wrote:

(Please don't vote if you like painting/modeling)

What does this even mean???

I hadnt noticed this before...

This is completely for Warmahordes players now...
:

What are you talking about? I see more support to painting and releases of hobby articles at PP than GW... I find your fixation on labeling warmahordes fans as non caring for the hobby quite stange.

What are you talking about? We are discussing the players, not PP or GW... you are confusiong consumer for business in your ever-eagerness to disagree with me...

Ever been to a Warmahordes tournament? Ever competed in the nationals?

It is a sea of bare metal... last year there were 3 forces that had paint on them, but not even tabletop standard.

If you dont see a direct relation of a company policy towards promoting the painting/ modelling and the kind of people it attracts is not my problem.
Also you refer to the "players" of that game has you actually know them all. Diferent countries, diferent people, diferent clubs, diferent associations diferent ratio of painted armies... seems silly to label every single warmahordes folk as non painter just because your very limited prespective tells you so.

Umm... lived and travelled around the globe. Most of the time playing W40k, WFB, Malifaux and Warmahordes... my earlier statement sums up the majority of Warmahordes players I encountered.

PP has very little influence over gamers hobby preference.

Perhaps you would like to try again? Or have you finished trolling for this evening?

AvatarForm wrote:
Perhaps you would like to try again? Or have you finished trolling for this evening?

Sad to see your level of behaviour and this kind of "content" you regulary post on dakka... glad your the minority

Learn some manners and to articulate a couple posts witout calling another user a troll and maybe you still have a chance

Ouze wrote:This poll is unclear. Specifically, the title: "That's the minimum visual representation you'd play with?"

Does this mean "that i'd field" or does this mean "that i'd play with", i.e. be OK with my opponent fielding?

Good point, original post edited.

Ouze wrote:

(Please don't vote if you like painting/modeling)

What does this even mean???

Please refer to my comment in the 5th post.

This is completely for Warmahordes players now...

Please don't turn this thread into a WM bashing. I'd rather not have it locked early. Their are players of many different tabletop miniatures games that play with masses of unpainted miniatures.

Howard A Treesong wrote:If you ask a group of people to whom "painting and modeling is not at all a priority" don't be surprised if the result is a large number of people saying they are happy to play with unpainted figures. Stands to reason, what does it prove other than you can manipulate the result of a poll by selecting those most likely to answer a certain way?

It's not a poll manipulation, it's narrowing your dataset to find more specific info about a specific pool of subjects.

I already know that most of those people will be fine with unpainted figures, but I want to see if it goes even further. I want to see if painted miniatures are not necessary, then if paper, or chits would be fine.

man, this thread was confusing to read until I realized navarro was responding to someone on my ignore list.
Anyway, to clarify my earlier post I'll play against anything that dosent give me a headache. My own armies get played as the actual models unless i'm trying something new i'm unsure of or that costs a ton of money. I am a slow painter so I don't put priority on playing painted only but I do try to slowly tackle what I have.

I've played other "board/miniatures" games with 2d card stand-ups or boxes representing models - AND models at the same time and still have no problem with it.

I've played games with unpainted counters (Doom/Spacehulk) - they may look like miniatures, but they are essentially just counters as the game is itself 2d and they may as well be card flats.

I've played 40k with nowt but flat counters.

I prefer to play with painted and WYSIWYG models, but the bare minimum (which would HAVE to apply to both sides, otherwise it just looks like you are playing tiddlywinks on a chessboard) is printed flat 2d counters.

Most of the PP tourneys I've heard of (Australia and the US), EXCEPT FOR CERTAIN LEVEL EVENTS ("Hardcore" and Adepticon were the main two referenced) do not require a painted army for their games, so a large number of the players do not paint them (for one reason or other*) unless it is required.

This is not to say that ALL PP players refuse to paint their models. It's like the 'bare grey plastic brigade' for 40k. If painting is not a requirement, and it gains you no benefit, they don't necessarily see it as important.





*I.E. Not just being considered "lazy". Time/family issues come into it.

If you only care about the game, then there's no difference between playing with fully painted armies and detailed 2D cardboard cutouts.

While I'd rather play a game against a fully painted army (unfortunately more common in Warmachine than in 40k, at least in my experience) and full terrain, I would be fine with someone proxying or using 2D printouts.

Also, Chainmail used to have some really nice 2D terrain pieces. It was a good system, because I could put my models on a "hill" without them falling over half the time.

This topic has gone beyond boring, now.

Awhile back I played a 1,000 point WHFB game against a friend of mine; both of us started WHFB with 8th. He had next to nothing put together, so it was mostly the front rank and a bunch of empty bases after that. He didn't have any of his MI models, so he used my Rat Ogres (I wasn't fielding em anyway). Our terrain was a mix of stuff I'd made, stuff from GW, and a huge CPU cooling fan for a building.

My army wasn't much better. Most of my clan rats still don't have their weapon arms (they're from IoB, so they already have the shields even!), I had to sub ratling guns for Doomflayers (there wasn't a Doomflayer model at the time), and nothing has even a lick of paint on it.


Basically, it was the sort of game that would make some of the hard line modeling people on these boards vomit in disgust. It was also one of the most fun and hilarious games of WHFB I'd ever played. From a Tizz sorcerer (and general!) Dimensionally Cascading himself into oblivion in the very first magic phase (all to kill 3 clan rats!), to my Globadiers spending most of the game high as kites from a mushroom forest, it was just a hilarious and all together enjoyable game, and it was something I would have missed if I'd been unwilling to play because his/my models weren't ready.

WHFB, 40k and what have you are hobby-games, true, but they're still games. Games should be played, and are meant to be fun. Sometimes I feel like people lose sight of that.

I played a game of WOTR against a Druzhag creatures list represented entirely by ELC rubber insects.

R.

I would happily play against anyone.

I prefer WYSIWYG and painted armies, but I am not that bothered if that army is made from another companies miniatures. Variation is always a good thing and a game can be very enjoyable against an unusual represented army.

That said I have played a game of 40k were my opponent wanted to try IG before purchase, and he used green army men, good game all the same

I won't field anything that's not finished to the best standard I can do. I could care less what my opponent uses, I'm just happy to... find a game, really. I didn't vote, though.

Unpainted WSYISWYG is the min I do, and then only if I REALLY want to play with a new army and/ or I run out of time getting stuff painted.

I play un-painted, but always try to get WYSIWYG to make it easier for opponent. I have on occasion proxied stuff (using other 40k models) but not very often at all, and would rather not.

In an ideal world, my armies would all be painted, but unfortunately i just don't really enjoy painting, so don't bother.

Unpainted WYSIWYG is preferable. I don't like painting at all, so next to nothing of my stuff is painted, but i'm too proud to get someone else to paint it, as then it only feels like the army is half mine and the other half belongs to the guy who painted it.

When I game, I do like to be able to tell what each model has, but couldn't care less what colour it was.

If you're proxying for another army that you're thinking of buying, or testing out a unit, then i'll be fine with anything up to paperclips of varying sizes, but if you've settled on an army and a list then I expect you to actually have those things. Facing paperclip army A is fine if you're in the process of buying the models, but if after several weeks of finalising your army you're still shuffling around stationary, I will refuse to play you.

TL;DR: Using random crap for playtesting purchases beforehand is fine; using them after you've finalised your list in lieu of the actual models is not; and i'd prefer it if any models you did have were WYSIWYG.