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I am looking at starting a new 40K army and love the idea of Ravenwing. I have done Deathwing before and basically had my butt handed to me in every game played. I am wondering if Ravenwing is a competitive army. Sometime these armies that focus on one type of unit, like Deathwing, have trouble against well rounded armies. So is Ravenwing a viable, competitive army. I don't do any big competitions, only play for fun. I don't have to win every game, I want some difficulty, but I want the army to have a chance. I formerly played eldar so the speed of Ravenwing appeals to me.

If you're talking about like a Shrike army, I've played one with lots of assault marines.

I don't think that version is viable right now since the release of GKs. An army that depends on Str4 close combat attacks and power armor doesn't have a prayer against an army equipped entirely with power weapons.

Some version of a Shrike army using massed terminators might still be viable.

I am talking about the Dark Angels with a full Ravenwing army. Pure bikes and speeders.

Whooops, Duh. Sorry, early morning brain fart.

So to answer the actual question, I hear mostly that vanilla space marine bike armies are more competitive than Ravenwing. The options are better (especially on land speeders if you include them), costs are more efficient, and the bigger combat squads make a difference.

So maybe a better idea would be a bike heavy Dark Angels army?

Or use your ravenwing models, but use the Vanilla Marine rules. I am currently building a Khan biker list and I have seen similar lists do extremely well in competitive environments.

I've moved to the Vanilla Marines codex to take advantage their lower points cost and larger numbers. My Ravenwing was such a minute force in the 1250 to 1500 range with the Dark Angels codex but now they're beefier, can still Outflank and have Ironclads in Drop Pods <3 But i can still see the appeal of the Dark Angels Ravenwing, and may even use them again, in even higher point games; Turbo-Boosting in the Scout move can be a better option than outflanking sometimes and they do come with Teleport Homers so you can Deep Strike death around them which would be nice but you would certainly be looking at over 1500 and probably closer to 2000+ to really be effective.

Peace Out!
Jonny!

I for one think Ravenwing is a prefectly viable competitive army. Your landspeeders may have less options, but they can still take typhoon missile launchers for 10 points only!

Your bikers may not be as good on options, but taking Sammael allows you a FNP command squad on bikes. Then again, I think a Dual wing army would be more competitve, especially at higher levels. But I also think that if played right, Ravenwing can be hard to beat.

I think the consensus is that dual-wing is more competitive that straight ravenwing; but ravenwing is still usable.

Am I right in thinking that if you include Sammael, you can also include cheaper LS typhoons (than vanilla) as troops? Are they scoring?

I initially thought sammael was a bit of a sink but his Speeder mounted Plasma cannon has turned me around.

mal wrote:Am I right in thinking that if you include Sammael, you can also include cheaper LS typhoons (than vanilla) as troops? Are they scoring?

No. The points for typhoon missile launchers are the same with or without Sammael. They're still extremely cheap though, only 10 points.

Sammael makes Ravenwing Attack Squads (bike squads) troop units, and thus they can hold objectives. You could argue that the landspeeder attached to that squad (assault cannon + heavy bolter) also counts as a troops unit, but I don't know the deal on vehicles holding objectives.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

You could argue that the landspeeder attached to that squad (assault cannon + heavy bolter) also counts as a troops unit, but I don't know the deal on vehicles holding objectives.

It's because of a specific rule in the DA codex that says in passing that Ravenwing speeders bought as part of the bike unit are "scoring units." It's a leftover in an older codex from when non-troop units could still score, and IIRC the rule was meant to clarify that the speeder is still scoring even when the unit deploys separately (as was possible back in 4th edition).

Vanilla codex bikes in an army with a bike captain also count as scoring and can take a FNP bike-mounted command squad--or two with two captains. So what used to be a big advantage for Ravenwing, the scoring bikes, is now cheaper and more flexible in the vanilla codex as well.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:... taking Sammael allows you a FNP command squad on bikes.

Command Squads cannot take bikes. Sammael is not an Inependent Character; he cannot take a Command Squad.

Another reason to play Vanilla Marines instead

Peace Out!
Jonny!

Command Squads cannot take bikes. Sammael is not an Inependent Character; he cannot take a Command Squad.

Sammael does allow you to up grade a bike squad with an apothecary and a company standard thus acting as a command squad. So you will indeed get FNP in a squad of bikers with Sammael in the army.

I think you'd need to have a combination of deathwing and ravenwing. WHile both can operate separately, they work (and are made to go together) well. The threat of a scoring unit of bikes becomes even harder to deal with when you have a unit of terminators deepstrike in next to them! (and deathwing termies still remain my favourite just because of their versitility! cyclones on a TH/SS Termie? YES PLEASE! and an assault termie squad with HF for hordes of guants? DEFINITELY!)
If you're not wanting uber-competitive then play around with them a bit and see what happens. Besides, they remain the coolest chapter!
Enjoy.

I would suggest just building it off the vanilla codex, DA are looking a codex rehash in the near future so don't jump the gun too much.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

You could argue that the landspeeder attached to that squad (assault cannon + heavy bolter) also counts as a troops unit, but I don't know the deal on vehicles holding objectives.

It's because of a specific rule in the DA codex that says in passing that Ravenwing speeders bought as part of the bike unit are "scoring units." It's a leftover in an older codex from when non-troop units could still score, and IIRC the rule was meant to clarify that the speeder is still scoring even when the unit deploys separately (as was possible back in 4th edition).

This was changed in the latest FAQ, there are no more scoring speeders. Grey Knights are the only army with scoring vehicles now.

Ravenwing is mostly hard to play, like most bike armies it just not very forgiving to bad moves. Also you are limited to what your list can look like.
It will be Sammael, one squad of six with FNP, squads of 3 with 2 plasma/melta guns, scoring attack bikes with MM and 3 cheap typhoons.

Are you saying FNP because they have the Medic? I do believe Dark Angel medics work differently from the 'new' Marine Medics, and do not give FNP. Instead you simply ignore the first non-instant-kill wound received by the squad. So there's no FNP in the entire DA codex, currently.

mboehm wrote:Are you saying FNP because they have the Medic? I do believe Dark Angel medics work differently from the 'new' Marine Medics, and do not give FNP. Instead you simply ignore the first non-instant-kill wound received by the squad. So there's no FNP in the entire DA codex, currently.

FAQs are your friend.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2170007a_Dark_Angels_FAQ_Version_1_2_January_2012.pdf

Fascinating. They finally FAQed that. And the vehicle smoke grenades as well. Must be fairly recent. I just remember the last game I played with my DAs, being told, "no, actually, the Dark Angels DO feel the pain. Every day."

mbutler132000 wrote:I am looking at starting a new 40K army and love the idea of Ravenwing. I have done Deathwing before and basically had my butt handed to me in every game played. I am wondering if Ravenwing is a competitive army. Sometime these armies that focus on one type of unit, like Deathwing, have trouble against well rounded armies. So is Ravenwing a viable, competitive army. I don't do any big competitions, only play for fun. I don't have to win every game, I want some difficulty, but I want the army to have a chance. I formerly played eldar so the speed of Ravenwing appeals to me.

In a word -- no. Ravenwing is not that competitive.
If you want to run a bike army, you should look the at C:SM codex. Bike armies are fast and fun to play. They are not the army for a novice though, and you may have some problems with the learning curve.

Deathwing is also a good army. If your getting your butt handed to you every game, the solution may not be switching armies, but increasing your understanding of the 40k game. 40k is like chess, you can't expect to know everything when you first start. There are strategies and tactics to the game.
These are some steps I would reccomend for improving your game.
* After each game, as your opponent what they would have done differently if they were you.
* Watch/read battle reports. This teaches you about how specific armies work.
* Listen to 40k podcasts. The independent characters is doing a section right now -- army for n00bs that's worth listening to.
* Read 40k tactics and strategy posts. I believe at the top of this forum there is a sticky with a number of them.
To reiterate, changing armies is not how you can avoid getting your butt kicked if your using a decent army -- which Deathwing is. Studying 40k is the way to improve your game.

mboehm wrote:Fascinating. They finally FAQed that. And the vehicle smoke grenades as well. Must be fairly recent. I just remember the last game I played with my DAs, being told, "no, actually, the Dark Angels DO feel the pain. Every day."

FNP has been there for a reasonably long time. Scoring landspeeders have been vaguely allowable until this January, however.

Have to agree Deathwing rocks. In some ways it plays itself, in the sense that you have a very narrow range of tactics against any particular enemy - which is good and bad.

Simply put; no. Marines do bikers cheaper and better, with far more options and tricks. Sadly the DA dex is outclassed by other dexes doing what it does but far better. Mixedwing works ok but the bikers only really provide melta and homers, not much else

Here's hoping that with the new codex the ravenwing becomes valid again.

Zid wrote:Simply put; no. Marines do bikers cheaper and better, with far more options and tricks. Sadly the DA dex is outclassed by other dexes doing what it does but far better. Mixedwing works ok but the bikers only really provide melta and homers, not much else

Arent Dark Angels stubborn? Land Speeders can score? Assault cannons anyone? Sammael in a Land Speeder is armor 14 right?..... If I could go back in time I would trade my BA for Ravenwing anyday....

Zid wrote:Simply put; no. Marines do bikers cheaper and better, with far more options and tricks. Sadly the DA dex is outclassed by other dexes doing what it does but far better. Mixedwing works ok but the bikers only really provide melta and homers, not much else

Threadomancy alert!

What he said:

But to your point Ravenwing really isn't viable C: SM do it ever so much better.

Deathwing on the other hand is good if you paly them right deny flanks draw them in then charge with a mass of TH/SS FNP termies with +1 attack ohh yes.

if you look in the adepticon thread you will see the deathwing that made the final 16.

But Ravenwing no they make no sense as an independent army.

Also Sammael may look cool and his stats look boss but trust me he ain't worth it. Now TH/SS Belial thats another story.