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In the new Orcs and Goblins codex, these command options are really quite expensive in compersion to many previous codexes. Almost double the price of the equilent option in many previous codexes. It's really got me wondering whether it's worth running full command, thus far I am cutting on Orc boss.

Something that's been bothering me, too.

Orc bosses are at least more than +1 A, right? Gobbo bosses have no excuse.

Musicians are great. Standards are good for Fortitude. Paying 15pts to chump-challenge is really only worthwhile if you're up against something truly horrifying.

I think musicians and standards being the same amount of points for everything and everyone is not exactly the worst thing possible since they do the same thing for everyone.

Costs for the champ should be priced differently though. A Bloodletter champ should not be the same cost as a Goblin champ.

Warpsolution wrote:Orc bosses are at least more than +1 A, right? Gobbo bosses have no excuse.

Orc bosses are +1S and +1WS as well so not that bad so I'm taking them in regular boyz, but not with big'uns as they're just +1A compared to regular big'uns.

jouso wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:Orc bosses are at least more than +1 A, right? Gobbo bosses have no excuse.

Orc bosses are +1S and +1WS as well so not that bad so I'm taking them in regular boyz, but not with big'uns as they're just +1A compared to regular big'uns.

The only thing is each Orc Boss costs at least 21 points, not factoring in potencial upgrades. Thats 3 and a half boys for a 1S 1WS and +1A. Not sure about you, but it feels a bit overpriced compared to the other stragictic benfits one has access to. At the very least I would expect it to be worth a Standard, but even then it's 5 points more costly then that.

Just seems a nusence, since most other races get their command for a 1/3 of the price, though perhaps that will be changed in time and that we will see less complete command squads. Though perhaps once a larger portion of the books have been edited to make these prices more general, that a beastly 22 point orc swinging with 3 attacks a turn at strength 4/5 at first could be a serious asset. Savage Orcs easpically get the good end, since for 2 more points you get a extra attack, 4 attacks at strength 4/5 at first could be a buzzsaw.

I've stopped getting champions in my empire and lizard armies...the standard and musician are the mandatory choices these days...step up has negated the value of champions, and the advantage of the champion accepting challenges is not worth the cost of the upgrade...

freddieyu1 wrote:I've stopped getting champions in my empire and lizard armies...the standard and musician are the mandatory choices these days...step up has negated the value of champions, and the advantage of the champion accepting challenges is not worth the cost of the upgrade...

Hohoho! Glad I checked this site... Your idea is good...
Hmmm... I can get 30 more points, from my 3 Night Goblin bosses..

I haven't decided quite how I feel about this one, either. Between O&G and TK it looks like the new standard for command will be 10 points each. I'm okay-ish with it, but think it unfairly hurts the cheap units. Curious to see how it pans out for monstrous infantry and the like...

I'm ok with it being more expensive. Musicians, particularly (historically the cheapest option) are very much more effective than they once were.

However, given the rather limited penalties for refusing challenges, a champion is a pretty questionable investment in many cases.

I approve of both of these changes, because I don't like automatic options. I enjoy the versatility of diverse army builds, and anything that enhances it is ok by me.

Champions are used to crowd wizards into the 2nd rank, doing a job that is much cheaper than buying 1 more hero.
Champions do off the off chance at killing an enemy hero and wracking up bonus victory points.
Champs still have to be singled out, so putting them on the outside of a unit will force an opponent to single them out, and wounds don't carry over, which may save you a point of combat res.

So, champs aren't totally a lost cause in 8th, they picked up 2 more abilities (character blocking and VP earning), but are likely to die due to step up.

-Matt

Not to mention some champs can carry magic items.

For WoC I like champs in big cheap units where the extra attack per combat can be kind of handy for the price (like S/B marauders.) I am not so sold on smaller units where usually the champ cost is equal to another model, who would probably get to swing if I added him to a rank.

The only exception is probably warriors units, where a champion upgrade is less than another body base, and has damn near hero level stats (3 attacks, Str4 base WS5 I5? 27 points? Holy crap!) Chosen are probably the same, but I don't run them.

I also don't like them in GW marauder units, as I don't want characters challenging my champ and avoiding the pile of GW attacks I want to dump on him.

Orc and savage Orc champions (and their boarboy brothers) make sense when the unit is not Big'uns and isn't minimum size. Upgrading 1/5-1/10 of your front rank to a single extra attack bearing Big'un will almost always make up it's points. Gobbos and Big'uns are wasteful unless you are (as someone else suggested) forcing a shaman back.

Black orcs are a toss up for me. Any character worth displacing a 12 point black orc for is probably worth a 27 point chump-challenger, particularly when that "chump" has a WS equal to or higher than many lords and 2s7 or 3s5 attacks, T4, and 5+ armor. This is doubly true if you sprung for shields.

I don't really see the point in the Champ in Black Orcs, easpically when you can take a goblin with great weapon for 5 points more, or another Black Orc for one point less. 2 wounds are always better then one and the single extra ws and attack doesn't really cut the mustard with init 2. He's worth 6 more points, not the full monty like they are asking until they give him another wound.

Indiges wrote:
Black orcs are a toss up for me. Any character worth displacing a 12 point black orc for is probably worth a 27 point chump-challenger, particularly when that "chump" has a WS equal to or higher than many lords and 2s7 or 3s5 attacks, T4, and 5+ armor. This is doubly true if you sprung for shields.

???
Black Orc champ is WS5. The only lords I see that are 5 are goblins, and the only ones less than 5 are wizards.


-Matt

I like the more expensive champs - means not so many champs are around anymore and my gobbo champs make sense. I use gobbos bosses for the boost of morale and punching and take any challenge with my poor gobbo champ. That means my boss will make it to the next round of combat. And lets be honest, what would I have from 3 extra gobbos? They wont bring anything to the table were my boss brings 2 S5 attacks. But since he´s a lousy challenger I need sth to "protect" him. Ok, that means he´s somewhat expensive (champ+bosscost) but I wouldnt say useless. For other races it may be a whole other story.

For DE you are paying 6pts for another attack which is the same as an unshielded warrior or a standard bearer,
more than worth it as your horde now has 41 attacks.
(not including the hidden assassin and character which I find is mandatory in large units).
Considering that both of the champion's attacks should hit (ws4 and eternal hatred) he should get his points back in two rounds of combat.