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I assume it's technically possible that a mutation could cause a Chapters geneseed to product nulls or pariahs. But would the Inquisition consider this a tolerable mutation, or would the Chapter be hunted down and wiped out?

The benefit would be that they would be particularly good at fighting psykers and Denizens of the Warp, and the Inquisition already uses Pariahs and nulls.

But just because a SM mutation may appear useful (Flame Falcons), doesn't mean the ol' Inquisition won't deem brand you Excommunicate Traitoris.

Mutations are accepted to a point...
If the mutation caused Null (highly unlikely to the point of impossibility) then the Inq. would bring the chapter in for testing and try to find the secret to it.
If a Null was recruited to an SM chapter and made it to full marine-hood he may be seconded to Inq. duties.
The Inquisition won't just destroy an entire chapter because of a few mutations...
They will do it if they suspect the mutations are caused by witchcraft etc

I assume you mean an Untouchable?

Untouchables are actually very hard to find, and exceedingly rare, in comparison to the rarity of Psykers in general. An SM candidate who was an Untouchable would find himself absolutely shunned by his fellows, his teachers, and his family. There's something about the Untouchable that makes it nigh-impossible for them to form any sort of human bond. They also have a dampening effect on Psykers in their vicinity, so the Chapter Librarian would have a hell of a time doing his Librarian-thing in the presence of Blank-Marine.

So, technically possible, yes. Probability of the Marine surviving long enough for the Inquisition to get involved? Exceedingly slim.

Would the presence of a blank condemn the Chapter to Terminatus? No. Untouchables aren't the same "moral threat" that unsanctioned Psykers are, as an Untouchable cannot (under most circumstances) be possessed by a Daemon, or even affected by Daemonic powers. Certain ones may even be powerful enough anti-psykers to cause daemons to suffer instability.

Untouchable/null/blanks/ it's more or less the same term but they differ in strength/anti-psyker-ness.

Psienesis wrote:I assume you mean an Untouchable?

Why do you assume?

A Pariah (or psychic null or soulless) has no warp presence and can even kill psykers by mear presence, they are found in the Culexus Temple assassins, the Sisters of Silence and in Necron forces. An untouchable or blank has a lesser effect on psykers and maybe related to pariahs, but is not a pariah.

Back to the point, a geneseed mutation like this would make no sence at all, as why would the taint of the chaos gods protect the marines from them? A marine would have to be a blank or pariah before his tranformation to be one after, but due to the nature of the worlds that chapters recruit from a pariah would not last long due to the unnatural aura around him so it is unlikely he would ever be recruited.

BluntmanDC wrote:

Psienesis wrote:I assume you mean an Untouchable?

Why do you assume?

A Pariah (or psychic null or soulless) has no warp presence and can even kill psykers by mear presence, they are found in the Culexus Temple assassins, the Sisters of Silence and in Necron forces. An untouchable or blank has a lesser effect on psykers and maybe related to pariahs, but is not a pariah.

Back to the point, a geneseed mutation like this would make no sence at all, as why would the taint of the chaos gods protect the marines from them? A marine would have to be a blank or pariah before his tranformation to be one after, but due to the nature of the worlds that chapters recruit from a pariah would not last long due to the unnatural aura around him so it is unlikely he would ever be recruited.

Because Dark Heresy only has "Untouchables" of various grades, and the Pariah is a Necron, not a variant Psyker or Space Marine, which is all I really deal with as far as 40K games go, so my previous post was written under the assumption that this was what the OP was talking about, given the very real possibility that other 40K products make use of the terms but apply them to different characters, people, or whatever. In Dark Heresy, an Untouchable can be completely, well, untouchable by direct psychic or daemonic means, and is thereby immune to most corrupting effects. Also, Null/Blank/Untouchable are synonymous terms in DH, not a reflection of relative strength or anything like that.

That said... unless Malal is involved, it is highly unlikely that Chaos will mutate a geneseed to make it... more resistant to Chaos.

Pariahs are caused by the Pariah gene that the C'tan sowed into the human race many millennium ago as a way to fight off their hated enemies in the warp, which they cannot comprehend. Pariah cause a negative zone in the warp, if it is thought of in a number system, and can harm psykers in a nearby vicinity; they can also be made into the Necron Pariah by a currently unknown means.

This makes them abit different from nulls or blanks who just have no warp presence as opposed to an anti-warp presence

BluntmanDC wrote:
Back to the point, a geneseed mutation like this would make no sence at all, as why would the taint of the chaos gods protect the marines from them? A marine would have to be a blank or pariah before his tranformation to be one after, but due to the nature of the worlds that chapters recruit from a pariah would not last long due to the unnatural aura around him so it is unlikely he would ever be recruited.

Can you rephrase that, I don't think I understand what you're saying? Are you saying any mutation of the geneseed is considered chaos corruption?

My understanding of geneseed mutation (which I admit is limited) is based off what I've read on the Lexicanum on Progenoid and the 21st Founding. My reasoning was that there are lots of SM Chapter with varying levels of mutations, such as the Salamanders; so it's theoretically (in the fictional science fantasy universe of 40k) that Chapter could develop this mutation.

The original information I was looking for (which I should have expressed better) are:
1. Could a Space Marine be a Blank/Pariah?
- I get it, not normally; cause they wouldn't survive long enough to be recruited or wouldn't be recruited.

2. Since geneseeds can mutate, could a Chapters geneseed mutate to cause them to become blanks/untouchables?
- I realize this is unlikely mutation, but I just want to know if it's theoretically possible or is there anything in the fluff that would prevent it.

3. Would the Inquisition consider this Chapter-wide mutation enough to destroy the Chapter?
- I didn't think so, and everyone whose posted seem to agree.

Psienesis wrote:
They also have a dampening effect on Psykers in their vicinity, so the Chapter Librarian would have a hell of a time doing his Librarian-thing in the presence of Blank-Marine.

Agree. If there was a Chapter full of blanks, they probably wouldn't have any Librarians.

Could be an interesting custom codex to play, certainly.

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the exorcists chapter, who are all psychic blanks. Part of their induction is that they are possessed by a daemon, and then have it removed, resulting in a fabricated psychic blank. However i'd believe that space marine genetic screenings or the implanted pariah genes would weed out any potential space marine as they would likely cause a mutation during induction.

warhawkstriker wrote:I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the exorcists chapter, who are all psychic blanks. Part of their induction is that they are possessed by a daemon, and then have it removed, resulting in a fabricated psychic blank. However i'd believe that space marine genetic screenings or the implanted pariah genes would weed out any potential space marine as they would likely cause a mutation during induction.

Wow and the inquisition hasn't noticed this yet?

I believe they're the sort of Freemasons behind the Inquisition. A lot of high-ranking =I= are members, and they operate in near complete secrecy, pursuing their own agenda for the good of the IoM.

a Chapter's geneseed doesn't cause psychic ability(or lack of)


a Chapter could recruit a Blank as a marine. I am not sure what the reaction would be to it though.



and FYI: Culexus assassins aren't simply nulls. they are Super Pariahs. having a Negative presense in the Warp. they can cause massive damage to psykers and non-psykers by harnessing Negative Warp Energy. they arn't Soulless so much as having a negative soul that absorbes warp energy.


Blanks are individuals with a lesser pariah gene that simply causes a dead zone in the warp. the are truely soulless.

I thought I read somewhere that the 'Pariah gene' was introduced to the human population by the Necrons. Was this just speculation? If this were so, why would the Imperium tolerate such a thing. Expediency?

Then again, maybe the 'rumors' of a Necron Space Marine 'alliance' are true...

The Inquisition created the Exorcists. They aren't blanks as such they simply have an strong resistance to psykers and an almost complete immunity to possession.
Since the Necrons were supposedly the ones who created the blank/untouchable/pariah/etc gene it would be unlikely that the gene-seed could make someone a blank etc

Uhlan wrote:I thought I read somewhere that the 'Pariah gene' was introduced to the human population by the Necrons. Was this just speculation? If this were so, why would the Imperium tolerate such a thing. Expediency?

Then again, maybe the 'rumors' of a Necron Space Marine 'alliance' are true...

the Necrons did indeed introduce the gene.


When exactly they introduced it is a mystery, but it was certaintly before the Imperium. sometime during the Dark Age of Technology.

or possably even before humanity left Terra to tread the stars.


our "Grim Reaper" is supposedly an afterimage of the Nightbringer who left his mark upon all sentient races who fear death.

Grey Templar wrote:

Uhlan wrote:I thought I read somewhere that the 'Pariah gene' was introduced to the human population by the Necrons. Was this just speculation? If this were so, why would the Imperium tolerate such a thing. Expediency?

Then again, maybe the 'rumors' of a Necron Space Marine 'alliance' are true...

the Necrons did indeed introduce the gene.


When exactly they introduced it is a mystery, but it was certaintly before the Imperium. sometime during the Dark Age of Technology.

or possably even before humanity left Terra to tread the stars.


our "Grim Reaper" is supposedly an afterimage of the Nightbringer who left his mark upon all sentient races who fear death.

Wow, I hadn't read anything about the pre-imperial introduction of the gene. Do you have any sources for this by any chance?

well, seeing as how the necrons weren't active during the first 2/3rds of the Imperiums existance and that Blanks arn't anything new.

the Sister's of Silence(the Inquisitions arm that collects psykers) are Pariahs and they have existed since the dawn of the Great Crusade.

I conclude that the C'tan seeded humanity with the Pariah gene.

Grey Templar wrote:well, seeing as how the necrons weren't active during the first 2/3rds of the Imperiums existance and that Blanks arn't anything new.

the Sister's of Silence(the Inquisitions arm that collects psykers) are Pariahs and they have existed since the dawn of the Great Crusade.

I conclude that the C'tan seeded humanity with the Pariah gene.

Crap, and you had whetted my appetite for fluff...

Grey Templar wrote:
a Chapter's geneseed doesn't cause psychic ability(or lack of)

The reason I thought it might be possible, is because of these sentences from Lexicanum:

"The Pariah gene is passed on as is any other gene, or occurs through random mutation, just as those genes that cause susceptibility to the Psyker mutation."

"Over time the Chapter's gene-seed may also change through genetic mutations, so that specific implants become corrupted, producing new effects in Marines, or becoming useless altogether."

Is the information on Lexicanum out of date or wrong?

My reasoning was that is geneseeds can mutate, and the Pariah gene can be caused by random mutation, why couldn't a Chapters geneseed mutate over time and they'd become Pariahs? I realized the likelihood of this happening are 'highly unlikely to the point of impossibility)', but 'highly unlikely to the point of impossibility' events happen in the 40K universe, so why not.

Any inherited genetic susceptibilty to the Pariah gene wouldn't change the 1 in a billion ration that they appear at.

Grass4hopper wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
a Chapter's geneseed doesn't cause psychic ability(or lack of)

The reason I thought it might be possible, is because of these sentences from Lexicanum:

"The Pariah gene is passed on as is any other gene, or occurs through random mutation, just as those genes that cause susceptibility to the Psyker mutation."

"Over time the Chapter's gene-seed may also change through genetic mutations, so that specific implants become corrupted, producing new effects in Marines, or becoming useless altogether."

Is the information on Lexicanum out of date or wrong?

My reasoning was that is geneseeds can mutate, and the Pariah gene can be caused by random mutation, why couldn't a Chapters geneseed mutate over time and they'd become Pariahs? I realized the likelihood of this happening are 'highly unlikely to the point of impossibility)', but 'highly unlikely to the point of impossibility' events happen in the 40K universe, so why not.

I hadn't really read the lexicanum info and the fact that the pariah gene is a random mutation is news to me. What that means exactly depends on the context with which we might take the word random I guess. Considering that the gene is thought to be a Necron invention, perhaps they mean it 'pops' up every once in a while, staying dormant until awoken after certain criteria (genetic and otherwise) are met. In other words, you might be a carrier of the gene, but that doesn't mean it's expressed.

So, in the context of your question can a Marine be a null, I'd say yes and no. Unless that particular expression is desired, any initiate or Marine exhibiting this trait after transformation would be eliminated or left to the inquisition.

Generally Marines don't want Pariah's in their ranks. The would notice and deal with them in some way. A Blank Marine's exostence would have to be a conscience decision by the Chapter Master.

Grass4hopper wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
a Chapter's geneseed doesn't cause psychic ability(or lack of)

The reason I thought it might be possible, is because of these sentences from Lexicanum:

"The Pariah gene is passed on as is any other gene, or occurs through random mutation, just as those genes that cause susceptibility to the Psyker mutation."

"Over time the Chapter's gene-seed may also change through genetic mutations, so that specific implants become corrupted, producing new effects in Marines, or becoming useless altogether."

Is the information on Lexicanum out of date or wrong?

My reasoning was that is geneseeds can mutate, and the Pariah gene can be caused by random mutation, why couldn't a Chapters geneseed mutate over time and they'd become Pariahs? I realized the likelihood of this happening are 'highly unlikely to the point of impossibility)', but 'highly unlikely to the point of impossibility' events happen in the 40K universe, so why not.

weather a marine applicant is a psyker or not has already been determined at birth.

the Geneseed might enhance his psychic ability, but it wouldn't change a non-psyker into a psyker.


the same can be said of a Pariah.

now a marine chapter could be said to draw from a population that has a higher chance of Pariahs, but such a planet would be of extreme interest to the inquisition. the chapter would have difficulty keeping it a secret.

not to mention the troubles having Blanks as marines might cause. Blanks are disturbing to non-blanks, doubly so to psykers. his Brothers would find it hard to work with him and the Librarians would find it impossable.

Though you must admit a chapter of Blanks would be a lot more useful for fighting Demons than a chapter of psychers.

Anvildude wrote:Though you must admit a chapter of Blanks would be a lot more useful for fighting Demons than a chapter of psychers.

It would.
Apart from the fact they would be impossible to transport anywhere...
The navigator wouldn't be able to navigate with that many blanks on board.
OT: It is possible since the gene-seed mutates slowly however getting the right combination of genes without outside interference would be next to impossible and making a chapter such as this in the fluff wuold reek of mary sue.

warhawkstriker wrote:I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the exorcists chapter, who are all psychic blanks. Part of their induction is that they are possessed by a daemon, and then have it removed, resulting in a fabricated psychic blank. However i'd believe that space marine genetic screenings or the implanted pariah genes would weed out any potential space marine as they would likely cause a mutation during induction.

The Exorcists have never in fluff been refered to as blanks, Exorcist fluff ''that their souls are incorruptible and pure'', a blank or pariah has no soul, that is the whole point. An Exorcist is not a blank they have just developed a stronger defence on their soul.

Grass4hopper wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:
Back to the point, a geneseed mutation like this would make no sence at all, as why would the taint of the chaos gods protect the marines from them? A marine would have to be a blank or pariah before his tranformation to be one after, but due to the nature of the worlds that chapters recruit from a pariah would not last long due to the unnatural aura around him so it is unlikely he would ever be recruited.

Can you rephrase that, I don't think I understand what you're saying? Are you saying any mutation of the geneseed is considered chaos corruption?

Their is a difference between what can be considered 'natural' mutations, like constantly growing canines or boney crests and what can be considered 'unnatural' like bursting into fire but still being fine or completely losing a person's soul.

Psienesis wrote:
Because Dark Heresy only has "Untouchables" of various grades, and the Pariah is a Necron, not a variant Psyker or Space Marine. That said... unless Malal is involved, it is highly unlikely that Chaos will mutate a geneseed to make it... more resistant to Chaos.

This is what happens when you use only one source of information, a Necron Pariah is a consrtuct of Necron parts and a human Pariah, the c'tan seeded humanity with this mutation to try and destroy the warp.

purplefood wrote:Apart from the fact they would be impossible to transport anywhere...
The navigator wouldn't be able to navigate with that many blanks on board.

But fluff has already pointed out that it is possible to transport blanks/pariahs as Culexus assassins go from Terra to all over the IoM all the time and the sisters of silence get about in space to, being present in many battles during the horus heresy.

The Black Ships travelled all over the galaxy for years with small armies of blanks with no problem.

Culexus Assassins wear the Animus Speculum which shields those around them from their Blankness.


and a "Small Army" of assassins is no more then a few dozen and then they are taking massive precautions to shield the Astropath.

Space Marines wouldn't find this practical.

Talking about Sisters of Silence.