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WARNING: There is some contention as to whether or not dreadnoughts can score. Be sure to talk to your opponent or a TO beforehand to make a decision concerning your game.

Before I go anywhere with this I would like to say some thanks. The person who really inspired me to make this thread is jy2. His understanding of the GK codex is simply better than mine and I have found his batreps and advice extremely valuable. Anyone who wants to learn to play GK more competitively should check out his batreps for some sneaky tips as well as some solid lists. I would also like to say that this thread is of course my own opinion and is based upon my own experiences. I play in a competitive setting so the following tactics and strategies are designed with that in mind. Please also bear in mind that I'm not saying venerable dreadnoughts should always be taken over regular dreadnoughts, but I hate to see the regular dismissal without so much as a second thought.

I have seen a lot of fast denial of the venerable dreadnought as an effective weapons platform due to its cost. People see the extra 60pt price tag and think "What else could I get for 60pts". When sizing up a potential unit in my lists I look at it this way "What do I get for those extra points?"

So lets start off with the additional pros you get when you make that purchase:

1. Crackshot (+1 BS)
Now for me this is icing on the cake. A 3+ to hit with re-rolls is reliable, but a 2+ with a re-rolls is better. Stastically 3 venerable dreads will miss once every 3 turns. Looking at the regualr psyfleman dreads you are looking at 4 misses every 3 turns. Make those shots count!!!

2. Why won't you die (Venerable)
This is where things get interesting. Combining this with fortitude you get an extremely resilient model. Glances just bounce right off as 88.8% of the time you end up with a result you can effectively ignore. Pens are a bit more complicated but I will use some statistics to help prove my point that the 60 points is well worth the investment.

A BS 4 Missile launcher (long fangs, dev squads, etc)
Chance to hit: 66.6%
Chance to pen: 22.2%
Chance of wrecking or exploding: 7.4%
With a re-roll: 2.46%

A BS 3 lascannon with re-roll to hit (IG squad with successful orders)
Chance to hit: 75%
Chance to pen: 37.5%
Chance of wrecking or exploding:12.5%
With a re-roll: 4.16%

As you can see the odds are highly in the ven dreads favour of surviving (and please remember this is without cover saves). Essentially the venerable dreads have 3x the survivability of a regular dreadnought.

AP1 weapons are a different matter entirely. In fact they are without a doubt the most dangerous thing out there when it comes to damaging your survivability. As it stands pens aren't that worrying, its getting bonuses on the damage chart. This is something I will come to a bit later when I go into basic list builds and deployment options to deny those melta shots. For now let's just take a look at the chances of wrecking a dreadnought with a BS4 meltagun within extra D6 range:

Chance to hit: 66.6%
Chance to pen: 55.5%
Chance of wrecking or exploding:27.7%
With a re-roll: 13.9%

The odds are quite a bit higher than either of the other examples so later on I will look at ways of denying these dangerous attacks.

3. Reinforced Aegis
Now this comes with regular dreadnoughts as well but I think it deserves a mention as due to the venerable rule you can rely on this much more. Again, I will be describing this more when I get to the deployment section that allows you to make the most of this.


Sample list
So now we have completed the pro's let's take a look at how to make the most of them. There are a few combinations that really do make a world of difference if the list you are running is balanced. Let's take a look at a sample 2k list:

GK GM
Rad, blind and psychotroke grenades
3x servo skulls

Coteaz

2x venerable psyfleman dreadnoughts

5x purifers
warding stave
halberd
daemon hammer
2x psycannnons
razorback
psybolt ammo

2x 5 man GK strike squads
psycannon
razorback
psybolt ammo

2x 5 man henchmen unit
3x melta
chimera

3 man henchmen unit
3x melta
chimera

5 man interceptor squad
daemon hammer
psycannon
3x halberds

2x psyfleman dreadnoughts

This list has the basics. There's a reasonable amount of S8 and S6 on the table, there are meltas to deal with the majority of heavy armour and there is mobility to get to objectives. Coteaz also brings a nice little buff in the form of "Spy Network"...just mentioning to your opponent that you have approximately a 30% chance to steal often alters their deployment method if they have taken first turn. However for me the real glue that holds the list together is the Grandmasters Grand Strategy since it can do one of can do several things.

1. In objective games the venerable dreads (or at least 1) can score. Combined with their high survivability they are just a pain to deal with and nearly impossible to remove from an objective once they are on it. The best your opponent can hope to do is contest.

2. In KP games the ven dreads don't really get any buff from the Grand Strategy but there are other things in the list that will benefit. Giving the interceptors and/or purifiers scout gives them a great means to get close to the enemy and/or get rear armour shots on vehicles.

Deployment options
Once you have paid the points for venerable status you really want to make sure you protect your investment. Keeping them in cover is the most obvious way but there are a few other things you can do to make your life easier. So lets examine the threats and see what we can do about them.

Deepstriking melta/multimelta
Now these can generally be a pain in the ass. However GK's have a the best defense against these kind of units...warp quake. For a truly balanced list 2 units of strike squads is a must have. They can give you a potential 48" no deepstike zone. Us it to protect your dreads (and everything else) from melta guns coming in and turning your AV into molten slag.

Outflanking units
Now a friend of mine likes to use sentinels as his outflankers. He chucks HK missiles on them and throws out a lot of S6 and S8 trying to find rear armour. When I play I use my regular dreads as side/rear armour saves if there is no terrain handy to protect the venerables. Don't forget to stay away from table edges when you know your opponent is bringing fast moving assault units from the side. The last place you want a shooty dread is in cc.

If you don't get first turn be sure to box in around your dreads to ensure no meltagun will be in 2D6 pen range. It can be more difficult if it's a dreadnought coming in, but the very least you can do is get a cover save.

Psychic shutdown
Things like a Librarian can really hurt if they can get their psychic hoods in range to stop fortitude going off. That said how the hell are they getting in range! You have a 48" range gun, use it. If they are slogging it they aren't gonna get near you. If they are in a transport that should be priority 1. A Farseer is a bit more of a problem since their range isn't limited but mech eldar firepower is limited. Damage output mainly comes from a couple of falcons and fire dragons so you shouldn't be so worried about your dreads getting hurt.

I guess the Reinforced Aegis also comes under this section. Multiple coverage of the Aegis is necessary to protect yourself from opposing psychic powers. If one dread gets destroyed at least you have backup. Although the Grey Knights are a highly psychic army I don't like to rely on them consistantly. "To many eggs in one basket" syndrome. They are there as backup to what is primarily a shooting force. By keeping your own psychic powers as a buff instead of a mainstay you are keeping opposing librarians in check automatically. By combining the buff with Reinforced Aegis you are giving yourself a headstart in the HQ department as well...a librarian of your own is less necessary thus facilitating more options in the HQ department.



So this is really just a very basic tactica to get the most out of your dreads once you are brave enough to take the plunge. They most definitely CAN be worth it in the right kind of list and in the words of my opponent yesterday "the venerables did all the heavy lifting and there was nothing I could do to stop them".


Added by jy2

4. Mobility
What do dreads have that make them stand out? What are their advantages over units like long fangs, devastators and other non-relentless heavy weapon units? Also, why are they better than non-fast vehicles like predators and even land raiders in terms of AT? The simple answer is mobility.

Devastator-type units are largely static units (with a very few exceptions). That means they sit down and will probably never move again, at least not if they want to shoot. Why is it good to be able to move and shoot? You can attempt to get better LOS to a target that your static shooters may not have. You can also move to fire at vehicle side arcs (classic example would be to better penetrate the AV 11/12 side armor of battle wagons/predators/vindicators/leman russes/etc.) as opposed to having to shoot at the front arcs of these AV14/13 tanks. What if you're in the threat range of an assaulting unit? Devastators cannot get out of the way if they want to continue firing. Dreads can. They can also charge those units as well if they needed to.

And most vehicles (the non-fast types) may only fire 1 anti-tank gun if they move 6" (with land raiders and leman russes able to fire 2). The dreadnought can move 6" and fire all of its guns.


5. Fortitude
While all grey knight vehicles have this, why is it particularly more important on grey knight psyfleman dreadnoughts? Because now you've just made one of the best gun platforms in all of 40k even better. That's right. Without any psychic defense, the only way you're going to stop these dreads from shooting is if you destroy their guns or destroy them. Period. Gone are the days when all you need to do is shake them to prevent them from shooting so that your transports can get close.


6. Protection
Not only are dreads arguably the best gun platform available currently, but they're great as a counter-assault, tarpitting unit. Grey knights are quite fragile, just like any other marines. While they can hold their own against most average units in assault, they need to be protected from more dedicated assault units. Enter the bodyguards, or grey knight dreadnoughts. Not only are dreadnoughts great at tarpitting assault units (i.e. bloodcrushers, ork mobs, many daemon units, tyranid genestealers, tyranid warriors, MEQ's with power weapons, howling banshees, incubi, wyches, other grey knights, etc.) but just by being there, they will make these assault armies think twice about assaulting. You want to assault my grey knights or inquisitorial henchmen with your uber-assault unit? First you're going to have to go through my dreads. What, you've got thunderhammer assault terminators? Let's see how long it takes them to get through 2 venerable dreads (hint: it'll take quite a while).

It is this role where venerable dreads excel over regular dreads. They last much longer against power fists and similar weapons than regular dreads do.



Advanced tips on getting the most out of your dreads


1. Flexibility. Dreads give you the flexibility that traditional devastators or vehicles don't have. You can mobilise your dreads when you have to. They are not stationary gun platforms like devastators. Don't just leave them hiding in cover in the back. Move them with your army. As a support unit, dreads need something to support. If they stay far away, then 1) you lose your Reinforced Aegis and 2) you lose your counter-assault protection. They work best when they are advancing and moving with the rest of your army. Also, by keeping your dread close to your army, you are forcing your opponent to have to make difficult choices. Should they fire their melta on your transports or on your dread behind the transport but with cover? Should they assault your transport/grey knights with your dreadnought so close by? One of the keys to an effective army is to constantly put your opponent in difficult positions. Then they are more likely to make mistakes.


2. Remember, your dreadnought is essentially a support unit. While it is good to protect them, ultimately, the most valuable units in your army in non-annihiliation games are your troops. If you need to sacrifice your dreads to ensure that your troops survive in objectives-based games, then it is a worthy sacrifice if those troops survive. Don't be afraid to use your dreads aggressively or even to use as "bait" to draw fire. Do what it takes to keep your troops alive in such missions.

For example, in a game against mech-guards, I deliberately moved my 2 venerable dreads out in the open without cover to draw fire from his vendettas, manticores and everything else. This is so that he wouldn't target my more vulnerable rhinos with troops in cover. I wouldn't have been able to do this with regular dreads because they just wouldn't survive guard shooting, but I had no fears with my vendreads.

Then against a shooty ork army in a deployment zone with little terrain, I placed my vendreads in front to give my more vulnerable rhinos cover from loota fire. Both were objective-based missions. With regular dreads, I wouldn't have been able to attempt such a tactic as they surely would not have survived, but with venerables, I had full confidence in using them as shields.

Then in annihilation games, protect the unit that does the most damage. If you're playing against mech-spam, then protect your dreads as they will do more damage than your grey knights. Against foot-lists, protect your transports/grey knights using your dreads as a shield if necessary.


3. While many view psyfleman dreads as a liability against non-mech armies, that is not necessarily true. Why are dreads still useful against non-mech armies?

- Insta-death shots. Psyfleman dreads are good at insta-killing nobs/nob bikers, meganobs, deffcoptas, crisis suits, paladins, tyranid warriors, raveners, zoanthropes, obliterators, swarms and other such multi-wound units. It may take a lot of shots in the case of 2+ saves, but they should have the volume of fire to take down about 2 per turn for every 3 dreads you have.

- FNP denial. Psyfleman dreads will deny FNP on a lot of units. They will also deny WBB for T4 necrons out of range of a resurrection orb.

- Protection and Improved Aegis. These will not change against a foot-list.



Hopefully this has helped to change a few minds and to let others consider taking them in the future.

Nice review, brah.

I'm concerned that one of your foundation ideas...a scoring venerable dreadnought, is in violation of the rules.

The GK GM can make D3 units do a variety of things, including making units "scoring as if they were troops" which certainly helps many of your units suddenly count as scoring...but there is nothing in the GK Codex that removes the restriction on vehicles scoring. Scoring as if they were troops...pretty much makes your dreadnought a "counts as troops" dreadnought, which doesn't give it permission to score. That's the same reason Ork troop dreadnoughts still can't hold objectives, even though they are troops, and can score as troops - a vehicular restriction on doing so.

I write this so that people who read your thread for tactical advice don't pick up bad habits and end up surprised when they get shut down when they try using it against an opponent.

It actually says "can claim objectives as if they were troops". Nowhere does it say that they are troops. And what would be the point of the rule to allow walkers to claim objectives...but unable to claim objectives?

Now if we agree being able to claim objectives essentially is the same as scoring then we are in business. Troops that are vehicles don't score, but if you make them scoring without being troops that would be perfectly acceptable.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Haven't been on dakka for a while...is there a thread (not the INAT GK FAQ one) that discusses this topic?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If it turns out I am wrong I will gladly change the contents of the thread.

There is a thread in YMDC. I come down on the side that reads "as if" as meaning they do not actually become troops. There has been a lot of mud going in each direction, though.

I would suggest that you Could take a Librarian as your second HQ instead of a HQ.


the Grandmaster has to ride with one of your small Henchman units, making all of his fancy grenades less good. They are best when they are buffing a squad.

I also agree that you can not make Dreads scoring. Grand Strategy does not override the fact the Vehicles can not score, even if they are troops. (FAQ may be crazy and counteract this, but wait and see I guess)



The librarian gives your vehicles stealth for 3+ save, or gives them a 5+ save in the open. This makes your already durable Ven Dread even more so.
Aegis only stops offensive Psy powers, but does not stop stuff like Fortune. The hood helps to stop buff type powers.


Just offering another option. I think that either could work.

Lukus83 wrote:It actually says "can claim objectives as if they were troops"

Yes...and while troops may claim objectives, vehicles cannot - even troop vehicles. If the codex meant to let dreadnoughts capture objectives...it would have said so by leaving out the "as if they were troops."

Well as I said, if the FAQ goes against how I read it then I will alter the original post. Could be a while though.

And I appreciate the fact you posted your warning. Of course each wargamer should consult a TO or talk to their gaming group to see how it will be played at each ocassion/event.

Nice Review. Venerable dreadnoughts are great.

However, the big cost of the venerable dreadnought is not taking purifiers unless you take Crowe.

Looking at the list.

Purifiers really want a rhino so they can fire their 2 psycannons out the fire points.

Small henchmen units don't live very long once their chimera explodes or they have to get out.

Where does the Grandmaster go? He has offensive grenades but there is no offensive assault unit to put him with. He has terminator armor so can only go in chimeras or land raiders.

The psyfleman venerable dread is a unit that really contradicts it'self.

The value of a Venerable psyfleman hanging out in the backfield behind cover is highly dependent on the eventual GK FAQ that could go either way. A TO could make the call in either direction, which means for the purpose of a single tournament the FAQ may or may not be in the GK player's favor. If GW's FAQ (or a TO's for the purpose of a single tournament) goes in favor of the venerable dread being able to score having one in the backfield to claim an objective is a valid plan, but going into a tournament with the assumption that the TO will FAQ in your favor is risky at best.

BS5 on a TL weapon improves accuracy from 89% to 97%. It's only a 10% increase in firepower. The increase in firepower from BS4 to BS5 is far more impressive on a MM than it is on a TL AC. The increase in CC power is far more impressive going from WS5 to WS4 than BS going from 4 to 5 as the dread can now hit MEQ on a 3+ with DCCW, but the psyfleman has no DCCW. The optimal armament to maximize the benefit of both WS5 and BS5 on a venerable dread is MM + CCW, but that dread fills an entirely different battlefield role than a venerable dread.

The defensive properties of having long ranged weapons is contradictory to Reinforced Aegis. The venerable dread can't be in 2 places at once, so it can't be hiding in the back field plinking away with it's AC and be simultaneously advancing along side with the troops it's supposed to protect. If a venerable dread filling the role of protecting troops with reinforced aegis bay advancing towards the enemy alongside the troops it's probably better off being equipped with the traditional MM/DCCW load out.

There are 2 distinct rolls GK venerable dreads can fill. Back field objective grabber (Provided the FAQ comes down in favor of the GK codex), and forward advancing reinforced aegis platform. Psyfleman is obviously the best load out for the backfield objective grabber, but MM/DCCW is the best load out if the venerable dread is going to be advancing towards the enemy where it will be fighting at close range and is likely to end up in assaults.

Well, backfield Dreads are usually not first-priority targets. So making them venerable is a waste of points.
However, Dreads that advance with the bulk of the army are more in danger to get into melta range. For those, Dreads I'd be inclined to make them venerable.

A lot of armies have either outflanking, infiltrating, or ultra-scout abilities to get to your back table edge without having to cross the board.

From a competitive standpoint, the big three tournament lists (Mech IG, Mech BA, Mech SW) all have the ability to do so and commonly take those units. Deep-striking melta stormtroopers, melta vets in a vendetta, melta wolf scouts that come in from the back table edge on a 3+, often with an attached powerfist, outflanking Baal predators with assault cannons or deep-striking infantry with melta or infernus pistols...

Other armies work to make up the ability not to access the backfield quickly with either long range firepower or fast units, or both. Dark Eldar have both. Chaos have outflanking chosen with meltas. Orks....well, lets just say that even if you're on your back table edge in a pitched battle game, Ghazghkull Thraka can still assault that dread on turn two.

So...you have a dreadnought sitting on an objective that is in most (or all) cases getting ruled against in major events (haven't seen any GT organizers rule in favor of yet), with no particular advantage against the armies it is most likely going to come up against.

Your write up is good but seemingly unnecessary. Is there any real skill to using Psyfleman? Point and click? Take three? Marvel at how undercosted Fortitude is?

Dashofpepper wrote:A lot of armies have either outflanking, infiltrating, or ultra-scout abilities to get to your back table edge without having to cross the board.

From a competitive standpoint, the big three tournament lists (Mech IG, Mech BA, Mech SW) all have the ability to do so and commonly take those units. Deep-striking melta stormtroopers, melta vets in a vendetta, melta wolf scouts that come in from the back table edge on a 3+, often with an attached powerfist, outflanking Baal predators with assault cannons or deep-striking infantry with melta or infernus pistols...

Other armies work to make up the ability not to access the backfield quickly with either long range firepower or fast units, or both. Dark Eldar have both. Chaos have outflanking chosen with meltas. Orks....well, lets just say that even if you're on your back table edge in a pitched battle game, Ghazghkull Thraka can still assault that dread on turn two.

So...you have a dreadnought sitting on an objective that is in most (or all) cases getting ruled against in major events (haven't seen any GT organizers rule in favor of yet), with no particular advantage against the armies it is most likely going to come up against.

This I don't understand.

It clearly states in the book that Grand Strategy and all of its lovely little abilities apply to walkers, same as anything else. The BRB says vehicles can't score, the Grey Knights codex says that they can in specific instances. Specific > General.

I enjoyed reading your write up.

Here is my line of thought:

If rifleman dreadnought is AWSOME, and the venerable is AWSOME++ why do you not go bonkers and grab 4 or 5 of them in the same list? It seems good vs mech witch I se everywhere.

Since you might not need that many S8 autocannons you could give the venerable an autocannon and an assault cannon, or autocannons or plasma cannons.

Autocannon and doomfist withf lamer? (Nothing like having S10 and instant kill vs MC's.)

gpfunk wrote: It clearly states in the book that Grand Strategy and all of its lovely little abilities apply to walkers, same as anything else. The BRB says vehicles can't score, the Grey Knights codex says that they can in specific instances. Specific > General.

While I would love to comment on this LET US NOT discuss this in this thread, PLEASE.

gpfunk wrote:

It clearly states in the book that Grand Strategy and all of its lovely little abilities apply to walkers, same as anything else. The BRB says vehicles can't score, the Grey Knights codex says that they can in specific instances. Specific > General.

I enjoyed reading your write up.

The GK codex does not say that walkers may score. It says that the listed units may score as if they were troops. That phrase is inclusive to dreadnoughts, who may also score as if they were troops. Troop dreadnoughts still don't score. The end.

Can we please take the rules discussion to the appropriate thread...Whether or not the Ven dread can score or not will be edited in soon as a warning to talk to the appropriate people (TO, stranger or friend).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And thanks to those who appreciated the advice of this thread.

Personally I think psyfleman dreds are highly overrated.

Can you explain why? Would like to get more views on why people like and don't like them.

For me they provide reliable long range anti-transport, something that is severely lacking in the codex elsewhere. They also help with AV12 spam if taking the Coteaz route. In my opinion it makes for a highly effective army throwing out a lot of damage at range with reasonable accuracy and hard to get damage results that stick back.

Lukus83 wrote:Can you explain why?

I could in a long post, but I will sum it up.

What are the dreads good at killing? For the most part light to medium vehicles, and that is about it (a few other odd things like C'Tan and Nob Bikers).

What don't they kill? Just about everything else.

Hordes will not be to bothered by them, and neither are a lot of other things. They lack the AP punch to kill anything in decent armor and heavy vehicles like Battle wagons, Land Raiders, monoliths, and leman russes will laugh at you. And what about TMCs? On average 4 dreads will not even kill one TMC (And if it is a tyrannofex you will kill it never).

To demonstrate, look at who would win in a firefight with long fangs backed up by thunderwolf cavalry.

I think that it is best to have a couple of dreads in your army to neutralize their intended prey, but other than that to think that spamming them will be game changers I have to disagree.

A bit of a warning though: My Grey Knight army is balanced and well rounded so take my advice with a grain of salt.

Thanks for the answer. I guess it comes down to personal preference. I think as you say 2 are pretty much standard, but after that it depends what else you want to fit into your list. I like throwing around purgation squads and chimeras as my anti horde. In my mind they are better than purifiers due to the fact they don't need a psychic test to work.

Dashofpepper wrote:The GK codex does not say that walkers may score. It says that the listed units may score as if they were troops. That phrase is inclusive to dreadnoughts, who may also score as if they were troops. Troop dreadnoughts still don't score. The end.

It's ambiguous because it specifically mentions walkers as being a target of Grand Strategy without excluding them from the Unyielding Anvil rule. Might just be a case of codex trumping BRB, depending on what the FAQ says, let alone whether it addresses it at all.

It's at least more ambiguous than the falchions debate.

Codexes do not trump BRB.

Specific > General, and people generally confuse this to mean Codex > BRB.

Walkers may be a target of Grand Strategy, and Grand Strategy lets you do *several* things to the listed walkers. One of them is to count as troops for scoring.

General rule: The following list of units may count as troops for scoring purposes: XX,YY,ZZ
Specific Rule: Walkers may not hold objectives.

Supplement that with an additional rule that tells you that even though vehicles may be troop choices, they may not score.

GK are not the first to get troop choice dreadnoughts, or in your case..."counts as troops" dreadnoughts. Guess what: They still don't score. Neither yours, nor anyone elses'.

The ONLY way this would work would be if the GK codex explicitly said "Walkers may hold objectives." Then there would be an even more specific rule to the "Vehicles, including walkers, may not score." But the GK codex does not say that. Instead, it says that they may be counted as troops for scoring purposes. That doesn't tell you that walkers score, it tells you to count them as troops - wherin troops may score. Unless they are a vehicle. Like a dreadnought.

JY2, who does some great battle reports, swears by Venerable Psyfleman dreadnoughts. I'm withholding my opinion, but I'd consider JY2 to be a worthy source of advice and he has the games under his belt to (hopefully know what works).

As for the scoring, I'd summarise it like this: Can Ravenwing Landspeeders score?

Ven Dreds always seemed to do just fine for me in anti Armour. even when shooting at russ's and all other av 14 targets. someone mentioned that av 14 is a problem that it cant solve. but str 8 with rending is kinda all you need to penetrate. 8 + 6 = 14. rending means if you roll a 6 it auto pens anything (possible exception to monolith, never used one or fought one, so i dont know if rending works on them) my current army is 6 psy rifle dreds (3 ven, 3 not) and is very effective. servo skulls on the 2 libbys i use for hq stop deep striking and infiltrate shenanigans. with shrouding and sanctuary they are very hard to kill. i have yet to loose them all at my FLGS. i have never played at a tournament. so maybe i am to noob to notice how flimsy they are. or perhaps i am misusing some rule some where. but they seem awesome to me.

redhairdave wrote:Ven Dreds always seemed to do just fine for me in anti Armour. even when shooting at russ's and all other av 14 targets. someone mentioned that av 14 is a problem that it cant solve. but str 8 with rending is kinda all you need to penetrate. 8 + 6 = 14. rending means if you roll a 6 it auto pens anything (possible exception to monolith, never used one or fought one, so i dont know if rending works on them) my current army is 6 psy rifle dreds (3 ven, 3 not) and is very effective. servo skulls on the 2 libbys i use for hq stop deep striking and infiltrate shenanigans. with shrouding and sanctuary they are very hard to kill. i have yet to loose them all at my FLGS. i have never played at a tournament. so maybe i am to noob to notice how flimsy they are. or perhaps i am misusing some rule some where. but they seem awesome to me.

They don't have rending. Only psycannons have that, and they are capped at S7. The auto cannons don't get that, all the ammo does is increase the strength by one.

ya, i just noticed that. when i wrote my first list i took the rending from the weapon above and the str and ap of the the auto cannon... kinda surprised no one i played cough that. even with that the assault cannon would also work if you could get close enough. str 7 (with psy ammo) and rending would be adequate for anti armor. will need play testing, and lots of it. as for survivability i did that right i think. they last. with shrouding and sanctuary. even in the open make a wedge and use smoke on the lead dead and the rest 50% behind him in a flying v (go mighty ducks!) that's a 3+ cover save for all. things to think about. i do accept that i am noob and likely wrong. thanks for mentioning that i had the weapon wrong.

I somewhat agree with Blackmoor, in that Psy Rifleman aren't as hot as I'd like them to be. In my mind, I compare them to Hydras (since I play IG as well). With the normal Dread, for 60 more (almost double) points, you gain 1 Str, 1BS, mobility, and some ability to tarpit. You lose 36", a Heavy Bolter, and the tracking rule. The Ven Dread is even worse. There may be a place for one or two, but it's not something I'd want to take six of.

I lean toward using Ven Dreads with Assault Cannons and Psy Ammo. They don't have twin-link, but BS 5 helps that a bunch. They have six shots at 24" against hordes, still have their Nemesis DCCW, and can still lay down hurt on vehicles. Ultimately, what draws me to them is that the entire army seems to be centered around 24", so a Psycannon (Assault Cannon + Psy Ammo = Psycannon) Dread seems a more natural fit, plus gets to keep the GK balance of firepower and CC ability.

Ven Dreads, I've found, should be used in two types of lists:

-Super-elite lists (Paladin spam) where that extra survivability allows it to withstand being some of the few (if any) vehicles in the list.

-You already have maxed out on your Heavy Support slots and have points to burn.

The first makes more sense in an aforementioned Paladin list where you can run 2-3 and that reroll keeps them alive longer. The second list works in Purifier lists where you can purchase three Psyflemen Dreads, 3 units of Purifiers and still have room for two or three Venerables, depending on how the Purifier setup.

Very good tactica so far, Lukus.

As someone who have been using dreads a lot, I would like to contribute to this tactica. Lukus, feel free to add this to your original tactica if you deem it worthy.


4. Mobility
What do dreads have that make them stand out? What are their advantages over units like long fangs, devastators and other non-relentless heavy weapon units? Also, why are they better than non-fast vehicles like predators and even land raiders in terms of AT? The simple answer is mobility.

Devastator-type units are largely static units (with a very few exceptions). That means they sit down and will probably never move again, at least not if they want to shoot. Why is it good to be able to move and shoot? You can attempt to get better LOS to a target that your static shooters may not have. You can also move to fire at vehicle side arcs (classic example would be to better penetrate the AV 11/12 side armor of battle wagons/predators/vindicators/leman russes/etc.) as opposed to having to shoot at the front arcs of these AV14/13 tanks. What if you're in the threat range of an assaulting unit? Devastators cannot get out of the way if they want to continue firing. Dreads can. They can also charge those units as well if they needed to.

And most vehicles (the non-fast types) may only fire 1 anti-tank gun if they move 6" (with land raiders and leman russes able to fire 2). The dreadnought can move 6" and fire all of its guns.


5. Fortitude
While all grey knight vehicles have this, why is it particularly more important on grey knight psyfleman dreadnoughts? Because now you've just made one of the best gun platforms in all of 40k even better. That's right. Without any psychic defense, the only way you're going to stop these dreads from shooting is if you destroy their guns or destroy them. Period. Gone are the days when all you need to do is shake them to prevent them from shooting so that your transports can get close.


6. Protection
Not only are dreads arguably the best gun platform available currently, but they're great as a counter-assault, tarpitting unit. Grey knights are quite fragile, just like any other marines. While they can hold their own against most average units in assault, they need to be protected from more dedicated assault units. Enter the bodyguards, or grey knight dreadnoughts. Not only are dreadnoughts great at tarpitting assault units (i.e. bloodcrushers, ork mobs, many daemon units, tyranid genestealers, tyranid warriors, MEQ's with power weapons, howling banshees, incubi, wyches, other grey knights, etc.) but just by being there, they will make these assault armies think twice about assaulting. You want to assault my grey knights or inquisitorial henchmen with your uber-assault unit? First you're going to have to go through my dreads. What, you've got thunderhammer assault terminators? Let's see how long it takes them to get through 2 venerable dreads (hint: it'll take quite a while).

It is this role where venerable dreads excel over regular dreads. They last much longer against power fists and similar weapons than regular dreads do.



Advanced tips on getting the most out of your dreads


1. Flexibility. Dreads give you the flexibility that traditional devastators or vehicles don't have. You can mobilise your dreads when you have to. They are not stationary gun platforms like devastators. Don't just leave them hiding in cover in the back. Move them with your army. As a support unit, dreads need something to support. If they stay far away, then 1) you lose your Reinforced Aegis and 2) you lose your counter-assault protection. They work best when they are advancing and moving with the rest of your army. Also, by keeping your dread close to your army, you are forcing your opponent to have to make difficult choices. Should they fire their melta on your transports or on your dread behind the transport but with cover? Should they assault your transport/grey knights with your dreadnought so close by? One of the keys to an effective army is to constantly put your opponent in difficult positions. Then they are more likely to make mistakes.


2. Remember, your dreadnought is essentially a support unit. While it is good to protect them, ultimately, the most valuable units in your army in non-annihiliation games are your troops. If you need to sacrifice your dreads to ensure that your troops survive in objectives-based games, then it is a worthy sacrifice if those troops survive. Don't be afraid to use your dreads aggressively or even to use as "bait" to draw fire. Do what it takes to keep your troops alive in such missions.

For example, in a game against mech-guards, I deliberately moved my 2 venerable dreads out in the open without cover to draw fire from his vendettas, manticores and everything else. This is so that he wouldn't target my more vulnerable rhinos with troops in cover. I wouldn't have been able to do this with regular dreads because they just wouldn't survive guard shooting, but I had no fears with my vendreads.

Then against a shooty ork army in a deployment zone with little terrain, I placed my vendreads in front to give my more vulnerable rhinos cover from loota fire. Both were objective-based missions. With regular dreads, I wouldn't have been able to attempt such a tactic as they surely would not have survived, but with venerables, I had full confidence in using them as shields.

Then in annihilation games, protect the unit that does the most damage. If you're playing against mech-spam, then protect your dreads as they will do more damage than your grey knights. Against foot-lists, protect your transports/grey knights using your dreads as a shield if necessary.


3. While many view psyfleman dreads as a liability against non-mech armies, that is not necessarily true. Why are dreads still useful against non-mech armies?

- Insta-death shots. Psyfleman dreads are good at insta-killing nobs/nob bikers, meganobs, deffcoptas, crisis suits, paladins, tyranid warriors, raveners, zoanthropes, obliterators, swarms and other such multi-wound units. It may take a lot of shots in the case of 2+ saves, but they should have the volume of fire to take down about 2 per turn for every 3 dreads you have.

- FNP denial. Psyfleman dreads will deny FNP on a lot of units. They will also deny WBB for T4 necrons out of range of a resurrection orb.

- Protection and Improved Aegis. These will not change against a foot-list.