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Hey guys this is a friendly game between my buddy Ben and I. Hope you enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjErYdVM1DE

So I thought Jaws didn't work on jump infantry, is this not the case?

very good battle report man... keep it up!

Choboking wrote:So I thought Jaws didn't work on jump infantry, is this not the case?

It doesn't.

Good battle rep though! Look forward to these.

Bad_Sheep, good report.

You might pass along to your tau buddy to go all Reserve against DP armies. It forces the SM player circle the wagons and gives tau a slightly better chance ... not much better, considering tau are so generally screwed by 5e.

Your reports are well delivered; concise. Time to get some of your buddies to get paint on their armies, you know, themed possibly.

TAU!

Great battle. Do you live in Pensacola by any chance? That store looks a lot like the one I sometimes go to there.

tanuvein wrote:Great battle. Do you live in Pensacola by any chance? That store looks a lot like the one I sometimes go to there.

Many stores look similar.

Except my FLGS :(

Only one table, it's tiny.

But that's what you get for being in a huge mall (Scarboro Town Centre)

Hey thanks for checking out the report and leaving feedback.

@Tanuvein: No I actually live in PA and have never heard of Pensacola.

@Brothererekose: That was my buddies first Tau game in about 6 months. He was playing Nids for the most part so he was a bit rusty. We talked about some tactics after words and the main thing he said he would have done differently was reserve everything. Glad you enjoyed the report!

GAHHH!!! My suits could have lived! Curse my ignorance!

Brothererekose, you are definitely right, all reserves against drop pod wolves seems to be the way to go. I need to play Tau more often, too, I'm getting spoiled with the more forgiving nature of Tyranids, hahaha.

Mhmm, vitamin water.

Yea Firemind sorry about that man. Didn't realize jump infantry and infantry didn't fall under "infantry"

We will have a grudge match soon enough =)

Choboking wrote:So I thought Jaws didn't work on jump infantry, is this not the case?

Jaws of the World Wolf works on jump infantry because its a subunit of infantry, and the FAQ states that it works on jetbikes because they are a sub unit of bikes

Tactical Nuclear Panda wrote:

Choboking wrote:So I thought Jaws didn't work on jump infantry, is this not the case?

Jaws of the World Wolf works on jump infantry because its a subunit of infantry, and the FAQ states that it works on jetbikes because they are a sub unit of bikes

Jump Infantry are a sub unit of Infantry? In the BRB they are described under units types at the same level as bikes, cavalry, and MCs. They even have their own subunit, jet packs. What makes you think jump infantry are a subunit of infantry, other than they both have the word infantry in their name?

Tactical Nuclear Panda wrote:
Jaws of the World Wolf works on jump infantry because its a subunit of infantry, and the FAQ states that it works on jetbikes because they are a sub unit of bikes

Incorrect, whilst Jetbikes are subunit of 'bikes', Jump infantry is an unit type in its own right, not subtype of 'infantry'. Thus, the Jaws works on Jetbikes, but not Jump infantry.

I would argue that Jaws does effect jump infantry. Jump infantry are infantry in that they fight on the ground, and only use their jump packs while moving longer than 6 inches. And using their jump packs to move the extended distance is done in their movement phase. All other times they are on the ground, shooting phase, assault phase and especially the opponent's shooting phase. BRB pg 5 states, "Jump infantry can move like normal infantry or activate their jump device to make a high-speed move, leaping over intervening terrain and models." Pg 52 further details how jump infantry are infantry but with the added benefit of the jump pack, "Jump infantry can use their jump packs (or equivalent) and move up to 12" in the Movement phase. This is optional and they can choose to move as normal infantry if they wish." Jump infantry do not circle the battlefield from the air, but are infantry that use their jump packs to quickly move toward their enemy, and that is it.

Also, the Space Wolves Codex Pg 37 description of Jaws of the World Wolf states, "Monstrous creatures, beasts, cavalry, bikes and infantry models that are touched by this line must take an initiative test." With the exception of the argued unit type Jump Infantry, all other types of units are listed except artillery and vehicles in the Jaws of the World Wolf. Now this takes us back to the BRB. Artillery is listed as its own unit type and is not listed under vehicles, not a sub category. However it is treated as a vehicle when it is shot at. It does not get a armour save or an invulnerable save as it has an armor rating of 10. Pg 55, "The gun models are treated as vehicles with an Armour Rating of 10." All this tells us that the Jaws of the World Wolf psychic power is meant to be used against all unit types with the exception of units with an armour save.

To further help people understand this psychic power everyone needs to watch this video. http://www.beastsofwar.com/warhammer-40k/ask-bow-jaws-of-the-world-wolf-warhammer-40k/

I see the point you are trying to make, but if you follow the RAW I think you are incorrect. Jump Infantry just aren't infantry. They shoot and assault like infantry, but that does not make them Infantry. In fact, because the BRB has to explicitly state that in those situations they behave like infantry, it is assumed that they are not infantry, otherwise why would the BRB have to make the clarification?

Also, just to clarify, Jump packs are not ONLY used when moving longer than 6 inches. You can choose to only move 4 inches and still invoke jumping rules, the model is simply given a choice to walk as normal if desired.

The simple fact is that Jump Infantry are a unique unit type, not boxed as a sub-category of Infantry. The jaws rules takes care to list the unit types it effects, and leaves Jump Infantry off of that list.

I would beg to differ, merlin96. Regardless of whether they fight on the ground or in the air, they still have the ability to fly. Nothing with that ability is going to get sucked into a giant chasm in the earth. Even if Jump Infantry with jet packs move normally in their 1st 6" move, they still use their jet packs on the 2nd 6" move. So they might fall in, but they can just fly out. Also, what about Gargoyles? They don't have legs at all, just wings. I don't think a chasm of any size is going to affect them in any way.

merlin96 wrote:With the exception of the argued unit type Jump Infantry, all other types of units are listed except artillery and vehicles in the Jaws of the World Wolf. Now this takes us back to the BRB. Artillery is listed as its own unit type and is not listed under vehicles, not a sub category.

Jump Infantry is its own unit type also, not a sub-unit of infantry. I would guess it's not listed because it isn't affected by JotWW.

merlin96 wrote:All this tells us that the Jaws of the World Wolf psychic power is meant to be used against all unit types with the exception of units with an armour save.

I disagree entirely. The rules for JotWW specifically list the unit types it affects. If it was worded the way quoted above, then I would say you are correct and that JotWW DOES affect jump infantry. However, being that it lists the unit types it affects, and Jump Infantry not being one of those unit types, I think JotWW has no effect on Jump Infantry.

A jet bike does not even touch the ground if you refer to the fluff, yet is affected by Jaws. This is another example of what people call GW poor writing. The fact is the rule itself has misinformation in it, beasts & cavalry are one and the same when it comes to unit types, yet the Jaws rules list beast and cavalry separately (beast, cavalry). It was written to express that the power affects all models that are not vehicles. Rule lawyers are nitpicking errors to elicit the result that they want.

merlin96 wrote:I would argue that Jaws does effect jump infantry. Jump infantry are infantry in that they fight on the ground, and only use their jump packs while moving longer than 6 inches. And using their jump packs to move the extended distance is done in their movement phase. All other times they are on the ground, shooting phase, assault phase and especially the opponent's shooting phase. BRB pg 5 states, "Jump infantry can move like normal infantry or activate their jump device to make a high-speed move, leaping over intervening terrain and models." Pg 52 further details how jump infantry are infantry but with the added benefit of the jump pack, "Jump infantry can use their jump packs (or equivalent) and move up to 12" in the Movement phase. This is optional and they can choose to move as normal infantry if they wish." Jump infantry do not circle the battlefield from the air, but are infantry that use their jump packs to quickly move toward their enemy, and that is it.

Also, the Space Wolves Codex Pg 37 description of Jaws of the World Wolf states, "Monstrous creatures, beasts, cavalry, bikes and infantry models that are touched by this line must take an initiative test." With the exception of the argued unit type Jump Infantry, all other types of units are listed except artillery and vehicles in the Jaws of the World Wolf. Now this takes us back to the BRB. Artillery is listed as its own unit type and is not listed under vehicles, not a sub category. However it is treated as a vehicle when it is shot at. It does not get a armour save or an invulnerable save as it has an armor rating of 10. Pg 55, "The gun models are treated as vehicles with an Armour Rating of 10." All this tells us that the Jaws of the World Wolf psychic power is meant to be used against all unit types with the exception of units with an armour save.

To further help people understand this psychic power everyone needs to watch this video. http://www.beastsofwar.com/warhammer-40k/ask-bow-jaws-of-the-world-wolf-warhammer-40k/

This discussion has already happened before and concluded Jump Infantry are not Infantry nor are they listed as a subcategory of Infantry.

Here's the thread concluding Jaws doesn't affect Jump Infantry: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/335506.page

EDIT: Btw, I only play Space Wolves. I would love it if Jaws did affect Jump Infantry but as Jump Infantry are NOT listed, until GW says that Jump Infantry are affected by Jaws then they are not.

@ merlin96

Actually I would argue that you are the one rule lawyering. The RAW states Jump Infantry are not an effected unit type, no lawyering needed.

Also, Beasts and Cavalry are not the same, they just share a rule set. BRB pg 54:

"These unit types are referred to as 'beasts' when they have no rider, or as 'cavalry' if they do. They both, however, follow the rules given in this section."

Lastly, you are speculating on the intent of the rule. If GW wanted the power to effect all non vehicle models, why wouldn't they just said that?

merlin96 wrote:Artillery is listed as its own unit type and is not listed under vehicles, not a sub category. However it is treated as a vehicle when it is shot at. It does not get a armour save or an invulnerable save as it has an armor rating of 10. Pg 55, "The gun models are treated as vehicles with an Armour Rating of 10." All this tells us that the Jaws of the World Wolf psychic power is meant to be used against all unit types with the exception of units with an armour save.

No... it means that Jaws is meant to be used against (among those listed) infantry.

"Unit" type is the wrong word here. The key word is models.

Artillary is composed of Vehicle and "Infantry" models. Page 55. The Unit. "Artillery units consist of a number of crewman models and the gun models themselves. These units are quite complex as they include some vehicle models and some infantry models."

Look at the Jaws description, "Monstrous creatures, beasts, cavalry, bikes or infantry models touched by this line must pass an Initiative test or be removed from play."

Even without the FAQ I would have concluded that the Infantry models in an Artillery unit are affected according to RAW but I can see why GW listed it in the FAQ to point out that there are, in fact, "Infantry" models in an Artillery unit and only those "Infantry" models are affected.

I play Space Wolves exclusively and 80% of my games are versus Tau so I would love to twist and interpret the rules in my favor to Jaws low initiative crisis suits but until GW either says that Jaws affects "Jump Infantry" or says that "Jump Infantry" are a subcategory of "Infantry" I'm going to play it as written.

Oh well, just check with the officials of the tournament that you are playing in or agree amongst your friends how this power will be played out. Hopefully in due time GW will update the FAQ to put this issue to rest.

OR you can all play Tau instead...XV8s are pretty cool...

Man, I would love to play Tau. I love the suits, reminds me of my Robotech and Rifts role-playing gamedays. Good times. Still filling out my SW army, plus it would be cool if they came out with an updated Tau Codex.

im2randomghgh wrote:OR you can all play Tau instead...XV8s are pretty cool...

I play the space commies all the time. Oh... you meant play (with) didn't you?

With Space Wolves I can play a different way each time (Balanced rhino rush, Drop pod army, Logan Wing, biker army, MSU, Landraider termies, TWC deathstar, LF lazorback cheese spam, wolf army) with a good deal of variation.

I play against Tau each week and every time it's the same thing with one or two variations but still same CORE units... same strategy... nothing particularly different. There's always a few broadsides, about twice as many crisis suits, and one or two firewarriors with devilfish. Maybe there's kroot or pathfinders or a hammerhead... maybe there isn't... maybe those 3-4 stealth suits have anti-infantry burst cannons or a melta, maybe they're packing marker lights. That's all just slight flavoring that doesn't really change too much how the Tau player plays.

I like the asthetics of Tau crisis suits (reminds me of Armored Core) but I can't see myself playing with Tau until they are updated such that there is more than one decent way to play with Tau. I like variety.

Sev wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:OR you can all play Tau instead...XV8s are pretty cool...

I play the space commies all the time. Oh... you meant play (with) didn't you?

With Space Wolves I can play a different way each time (Balanced rhino rush, Drop pod army, Logan Wing, biker army, MSU, Landraider termies, TWC deathstar, LF lazorback cheese spam, wolf army) with a good deal of variation.

I play against Tau each week and every time it's the same thing with one or two variations but still same CORE units... same strategy... nothing particularly different. There's always a few broadsides, about twice as many crisis suits, and one or two firewarriors with devilfish. Maybe there's kroot or pathfinders or a hammerhead... maybe there isn't... maybe those 3-4 stealth suits have anti-infantry burst cannons or a melta, maybe they're packing marker lights. That's all just slight flavoring that doesn't really change too much how the Tau player plays.

I like the asthetics of Tau crisis suits (reminds me of Armored Core) but I can't see myself playing with Tau until they are updated such that there is more than one decent way to play with Tau. I like variety.

I'm the exact opposite, I'm the only person in the area that really plays Teh Spess Commehs, so it's a good change of pace when I go to the LGS or have friends over for a friendly skirmish.

Yes, most Tau armies play the same and have the same army lists, but hopefully there will be a little more variety/flexibility with the new 'dex (when ever it comes out)

A LOT of proxying. At my GW I would get thrown out. I hate my lack of a FLGS in my area.

Sev wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:OR you can all play Tau instead...XV8s are pretty cool...

I play the space commies all the time. Oh... you meant play (with) didn't you?

With Space Wolves I can play a different way each time (Balanced rhino rush, Drop pod army, Logan Wing, biker army, MSU, Landraider termies, TWC deathstar, LF lazorback cheese spam, wolf army) with a good deal of variation.

I play against Tau each week and every time it's the same thing with one or two variations but still same CORE units... same strategy... nothing particularly different. There's always a few broadsides, about twice as many crisis suits, and one or two firewarriors with devilfish. Maybe there's kroot or pathfinders or a hammerhead... maybe there isn't... maybe those 3-4 stealth suits have anti-infantry burst cannons or a melta, maybe they're packing marker lights. That's all just slight flavoring that doesn't really change too much how the Tau player plays.

I like the asthetics of Tau crisis suits (reminds me of Armored Core) but I can't see myself playing with Tau until they are updated such that there is more than one decent way to play with Tau. I like variety.

The Tau have a variety of ways to play, it is simply the fact that they have a 4ed rule book in 5ed that makes only a certain type of list competitive against 5ed armies. The new cover saves system means that Tau have to be mobile. Mobility is useless without some firepower too, and mobility+firepower=XV8. So there is only one thing TO do.