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Ok so this rules question came up today.

GK GM has the rule Grand Strategy which (I'm paraphrasing here because my Codex is in my car) says, "Roll a D3, that many Infantry, Jump Infantry, and Walker Units, but not special characters etc etc gets one of the following roles for the remainder of the game. They all must take the same role.

Now one of the roles says (again paraphrasing), "The unit is treated exactly like a scoring unit and my hold objectives."

Now by this logic and RaW you could make a Dreadnaught a scoring unit. One of the guys at my FLGS argued with me that the Rulebook says that a vehicle can never be a scoring unit, but another guy at my FLGS says that specific trumps general and the Codex rules is a specific rule so the Dreadnaught would become scoring.

Help me out Dakka!

The rulebook only mentions the conditions under which a troops choice cannot be scoring (one of those conditions being if it's a vehicle).

It does not say that a vehicle can never be scoring.

The problem is, the GK codex says they may claim objectives "as if they were Troops." And vehicles that are troops cannot claim objectives, so...

RAW, I don't think your GK Dreadnought can't score with Grand Strategy.

My guess is that they intended them to be able to score...but it's just another in the long line of ambiguous Grey Knight nonsense. If they'd just said "These nominated units count as scoring" it would have been so much simpler. *sigh*

A Walker that scores as if it is troops does not score because it is a walker.

Troops walkers cannot score.

Grand Strategy makes your normally Heavy/Elite dreads score as if they were troops. Sadly even being troops isn't enough to make a vehicle score.

Locally we have ruled that they can, because we think that is what the intention is, but that is, of course a house rule.
It's is one of the (many) things in the C:GK that needs an FAQ

Sanguinis wrote:Now one of the roles says (again paraphrasing), "The unit is treated exactly like a scoring unit and my hold objectives."

Why not quote properly instead of paraphrasing (since your version is considerably biased)?
"The nominated units can claim objectives as if they were troops".

Vehicles that are troops cannot claim objectives. If it had said that they were scoring units then it would have worked on dreadnaughts.

Compare this to the ravenwing entry in C: DA which does make vehicles scoring: "they always operate as completely independent scoring units of one model".

Simple answer:

Dreadknight is not a vehicle. It is neither a Walker.

It is a monstrous creature.

Grand Strategy cannot effect vehicles and Walkers either way.

/Thread.

Apart from the inconvenient point that the rules for Grand Strategy specifically include Walkers...

Jaon wrote:Simple answer:
Dreadknight is not a vehicle. It is neither a Walker.
It is a monstrous creature.
Grand Strategy cannot effect vehicles and Walkers either way.
/Thread.

OP asked about Dreadnaughts not dreadknights.
And Grand Strategy does affect Walkers although it doesn't affect other vehicles.

Though it seems that a dreadknight with personal teleporter can benefit from grand strategy while one without can not.

I bet dreadknights were infantry and at some point during development changed to monsterous creature without anyone checking for rule conflicts...

Jidmah wrote:Though it seems that a dreadknight with personal teleporter can benefit from grand strategy while one without can not.

I bet dreadknights were infantry and at some point during development changed to monsterous creature without anyone checking for rule conflicts...

Where are you getting this from? Grand Strategy covers Monstrous Creatures.

Corrode wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Though it seems that a dreadknight with personal teleporter can benefit from grand strategy while one without can not.

I bet dreadknights were infantry and at some point during development changed to monsterous creature without anyone checking for rule conflicts...

Where are you getting this from? Grand Strategy covers Monstrous Creatures.

"Infantry, Jump Infantry, Monstrous Creature or Walker"

There seems to be a lot of misinformation floating around here, so I'll just throw this up:

GK Codex pg.22

Grand Strategy: At the start of the game, before forces are deployed, the Grand Master can assign special battlefield roles to units under his command. Roll a D3 and choose that many infantry, jump infantry, monstrous creature or walker units in your army (but not models with the Independent Character special rule, Inquisitorial Henchmen Warbands or Grand Master Mordrak's unit of Ghost Knights).

This happens every time I actually belive someone quoting rules, instead of checking myself. Should teach me.

bushido wrote:There seems to be a lot of misinformation floating around here, so I'll just throw this up:

GK Codex pg.22

Grand Strategy: At the start of the game, before forces are deployed, the Grand Master can assign special battlefield roles to units under his command. Roll a D3 and choose that many infantry, jump infantry, monstrous creature or walker units in your army (but not models with the Independent Character special rule, Inquisitorial Henchmen Warbands or Grand Master Mordrak's unit of Ghost Knights).

The REAL

/thread

Why? It doesn't answer the OP's question.

You know, posting "/thread" is now more important than posting content...

That said, you already posted the correct answer to the OPs question ten posts ago

I had this discussion the other day. The main point is this: the rule says "as if they were troops". The conditional phrase means that the dreadnought is STILL NOT A TROOP. Therefore it is not a vehicle that is a troop (which is the only type of vehicle specifically disallowed by the BRB), so it can score.

If: Walkers under Grand Strategy can claim objectives as if they were troops.

And: Troops that are vehicles cannot claim objectives.

Then: A walker under Grand Strategy cannot claim objectives.

I'd expect it to be clarified that they can (and would never prevent my GK opponent from doing so in an actual game) but it's easy to argue that GK dreads can't score.

Yes RaW the Ddreanought can't score, and feel free to play that house rule. However the rule is pretty clear and we all know how it would go at FaQ, but I don't for a second believe GW would waste the ink on FaQing this answer.

Has anyone bothered to wonder why indeed it would specifically call out walkers if walkers didn't count?

What would the purpose be of saying "walkers" in that paragraph? There is no other benefit to that particular rule aside from making things scoring. They specifically call out walkers.

Why would they waste the ink?

Because they expect you to give Walkers a different role? All of the others work fine for Walkers.

Making units scoring isn't the only effect of Grand Strategy. Walkers are mentioned before they even explain the special rules you can give the nominated units. Not exactly a waste of ink.

FlingitNow wrote:Yes RaW the Ddreanought can't score, and feel free to play that house rule. However the rule is pretty clear and we all know how it would go at FaQ, but I don't for a second believe GW would waste the ink on FaQing this answer.

Wouldn't a "pretty clear" rule follow the RaW?

I asked this question last monght and the discussion didn't last long, partly because I posted the correct wording for the rule in the OP, and used the rule wording itself to present my side of it, rather than unsupported opinion. I'm a little surprised by the resistance here.

I apologize for not quoting it right I guess next time I'm gonna have to remember to have my Codex on me. I was not attempting to change the wording to support the answer I wanted. I was trying to get an answer and changing the wording to give the answer I want would be pointless and then I wouldn't have had to ask the question in the first place.

Now, about the question. I understand it says, "they may score as if they are troops", and I understand that the rulebook says that, "troops that are vehicles can not score", however this is not turning the dreadnaught into a troop it is merely making the Dreadnaught score as if it were a troop. That is the key phrasing, I understand what the rulebook says but I also understand that it does not turn the Dreadnaught into a troop it says may score as if it were a troop. I think the intention was to use the "as if it were a troop" as an example. If they intended for Dreadnaughts not to score they could have said something along the lines of "The unit becomes a troop choice this game." If they had used that wording then the Dreadnaught could not score because it would be in violation of the rulebook.

Believe me when I say I do not intend to ever use this rule on my Dreadnaught. If anything outflanking Dreadnaughts is more fun. I am merely wondering for my own purposes and for the purposes of those who use 3 Psyrifleman Dreadnaughts that could potentially, on the roll of a 5-6 for Grand Strategy, have 3 scoring Dreadnaughts (which would scare me). I am unbiased as to the answer I just want a concrete answer.

FlingitNow wrote:


Yes RaW the Ddreanought can't score, and feel free to play that house rule. However the rule is pretty clear and we all know how it would go at FaQ, but I don't for a second believe GW would waste the ink on FaQing this answer.

I don't believe FaQing this answer would be a waste of ink at all! I think if anything it would be a good thing to FaQ, along with the other 600 questions that arose from this very poorly written and completely garbled mess of a Codex.

Edited twice for spelling.

Kyvik wrote:Has anyone bothered to wonder why indeed it would specifically call out walkers if walkers didn't count?
What would the purpose be of saying "walkers" in that paragraph? There is no other benefit to that particular rule aside from making things scoring. They specifically call out walkers.

There are four effects to choose from. Just because walkers are in the included list does not mean that every one of those effects works for them. Have you even read the rule?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

somerandomdude wrote:I asked this question last monght and the discussion didn't last long, partly because I posted the correct wording for the rule in the OP, and used the rule wording itself to present my side of it, rather than unsupported opinion. I'm a little surprised by the resistance here.

I'm not. There are plenty of people posting that have clearly not read the actual rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FlingitNow wrote:Yes RaW the Ddreanought can't score, and feel free to play that house rule. However the rule is pretty clear and we all know how it would go at FaQ, but I don't for a second believe GW would waste the ink on FaQing this answer.

Yes, the rule is perfectly clear. It claims objectives like a troop and troop vehicles don't.

If they hadn't specifically wanted to exclude walkers from using GM to become scoring (whilst letting them use the other options) they could have just put "becomes scoring". As usual, you are letting your belief in what you think the rules ought to say override what they actually do say.

"Scoring as if they are troops"

is the same as

"this dread is scoring the same way as an identical dread bought in a troops slot"

A dread bought in a troops slot can not claim objectives. The rule does not use "slots" as those are only relevant when actually making the list, and can't be changed once you start rolling for grand strategy.

Conundrum! The dreadnought is afaik the only 'walker' this applies to (DKnight being an MC). The rule goes out of the way to mention that walkers can also be made to hold objectives etc. However, the rules also say that troops-vehicles can't claim objectives. So - if they 'can't claim', why are they mentioned in the rule in the first place? P:

Its written fine. The nominated units can claim objectives as if they were troops.

The key word is as its not saying that it makes them troops choices its saying they can capture OBJ like troops can.

They can claim objectives. It says that in the RAW.

InquisitorVaron wrote:Its written fine. The nominated units can claim objectives as if they were troops.

The key word is as its not saying that it makes them troops choices its saying they can capture OBJ like troops can.

They are still vehicles, and troop vehicles can not claim objectives.

They can claim objectives. It says that in the RAW.

The rule does not say this, this is blatant misquoting and false. It says(exact quote):
"The nominated units may claim objectives as if they were Troops."(pg. 22, GK codex)
"There are a few exceptions, however, when a unit of Troops does not count as scoring: If it is a vehicle. [...]"(pg. 90, BRB)

If a (venerable) dreadnought were Troops, it would still not count as scoring, because it is a vehicle. So it is not scoring either when chosen for Unyielding Anvil.

Restating your opinion without any rules backup does not make you more right.

1. Rules in an army-specific Codex may override rules in the main rulebook.

References: Main Rulebook pages 62, 74, 97

2. Grand Strategy special rule, page 22 of Grey Knight rulebook

"...chose that many infantry, jump infantry, monstrous creature, or walker units in your army..."

3. Unyielding Anvil sub-rule, page 22 of Grey Knight rulebook

"The nominated units can claim objectives as if they were troops"

4. Dreadnoughts & Venerable Dreadnoughts, page 35 of Grey Knight rulebook

Unit type: Vehicle, Walker

5. Common Sense

The -only- Walker unit type in the ENTIRE codex are the Dreadnought and the Venerable Dreadnought. Don't you think it would be stupid to include that line in the special rules of the Grand Master only to have it go to waste and be of no use?

The Dreadknight is a Monstrous Creature, the only one in the codex.