Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

No, you guys are misreading it.

You are saying that the dreadnought cannot score because it is a vehicle. This is true. Then the GK codex states that the four unit types may indeed score, as if they were troops. Obviously, this is saying that the four unit types may score as if they were "scoring troops," because no matter how badly you think Matt Ward writes, no one would think he would state that the four unit types could score as if they were non-scoring troops. That just doesn't make sense, but that;s exactly what you are arguing. You are claiming that the rules say that a walker scores like a non-scoring troop. What would the point in that be.
It seems like most of us agree that this is exactly how the rule is intended, but because of the wording some of you are claiming that it is not how the RAW is. However, I think that RAW will allow the walker to become a scoring unit, because you guys are using reverse logic, or unsequential logic, to justify your claim.
First, we are given four unit types which cannot score.
Next, we are allowed to designate D3 of those units as scoring. Note: it doesn't change the unit type to troop! It only allows them to score. So your argument that vehicle troops do not score is invalid, because the walker is not a vehicle TROOP...it is a vehicle elite or vehicle heavy. It simply scores as a SCORING troop, because it would make no sense to say it scores as a non-scoring troop.
So the invalidness of your argument seems to be in that you are saying that vehicle troops cannot score. The walker never becomes a troop. It simply gains the ability to score. Show me where the unit becomes a troop choice, and we can argue some more. But since the walker never becomes a troop, you cannot argue that vehicle troops do not score. The four units gain the ability to score...they do not become troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Anvildude wrote:In other words, it doesn't allow non-Troops units to become Scoring, it allows non-Troops units to act like they were Troops. In most cases that means, yes, they do become scoring. But Drednaughts, being vehicles, cannot score, whether or not they are or are acting like Troops.

No, it allows non troop units to act like they were SCORING troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There's no need to refer back to what the unit type is after unyielding anvil has been activated. It's weird how you guys are doing that. Unyielding anvil allows the four unit types to behave differently than they normally do, and then you guys state that how the units were before unyielding anvil activated affects the way it operates.The word scoring is what we should be focused on...not troop.

Analogy time.

In ohio, nobody with a felony conviction can buy a handgun.

In addition, to buy a handgun, you must be 21 years old.

If the state passed a law that said that college graduates can buy handguns, as if they were 21 years old, would a 20 year old felon with a degree be able to buy a guy?

No, because there is still a rule prohibiting it.

But in Ohio, anyone can get a gun if they look around lol

I want to know what 20-year-old with a felony has a college degree AND needs a handgun?

if the special rule was "counts as a scoring unit" (ex sternguard with cantor) a dread would count as a scoring unit as it has been given the special exemption.

as the rules is "counts as troops" there is an exemption in troops that vehicles can not score. so unless an exmeption to this rule is present dreads cant score.

its not counts as troops...it's scores as troops...and seeing how vehicle troops don't score, it makes no sense to say it scores as vehicle troops, because that's saying it doesn't score at all. Everyone saying that it scores as a vehicle troop is adding something that is not there. It scores as a scoring troop, just like the MC's, the heavies and elites. Just because there is a rule prohibiting troop vehicles from scoring doesn't mean that a walker given the ability to score is now a troop vehicle...it's still a heavy or elite...just with the ability to score now.

Shenra wrote:its not counts as troops...it's scores as troops...and seeing how vehicle troops don't score, it makes no sense to say it scores as vehicle troops, because that's saying it doesn't score at all. Everyone saying that it scores as a vehicle troop is adding something that is not there. It scores as a scoring troop, just like the MC's, the heavies and elites. Just because there is a rule prohibiting troop vehicles from scoring doesn't mean that a walker given the ability to score is now a troop vehicle...it's still a heavy or elite...just with the ability to score now.

Exactly, it's Matt's Ward's way of saying that dreadnoughts don't get to score under Unyielding Anvil.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Shenra wrote:its not counts as troops...it's scores as troops...and seeing how vehicle troops don't score, it makes no sense to say it scores as vehicle troops, because that's saying it doesn't score at all. Everyone saying that it scores as a vehicle troop is adding something that is not there. It scores as a scoring troop, just like the MC's, the heavies and elites. Just because there is a rule prohibiting troop vehicles from scoring doesn't mean that a walker given the ability to score is now a troop vehicle...it's still a heavy or elite...just with the ability to score now.

Exactly, it's Matt's Ward's way of saying that dreadnoughts don't get to score under Unyielding Anvil.

No, if he wanted to say that, he would just say that they now count as troops. In that case, it would be a vehicle troop, and not score, while the other three (heavies, MC's and elites) would score. But he said they SCORE as troops, which means the emphasis is on the ability to score, and not the "count as troops".

Shenra wrote:its not counts as troops...it's scores as troops...and seeing how vehicle troops don't score, it makes no sense to say it scores as vehicle troops, because that's saying it doesn't score at all. Everyone saying that it scores as a vehicle troop is adding something that is not there. It scores as a scoring troop, just like the MC's, the heavies and elites. Just because there is a rule prohibiting troop vehicles from scoring doesn't mean that a walker given the ability to score is now a troop vehicle...it's still a heavy or elite...just with the ability to score now.

Actually, it's not "scores as troops," it's "can hold objectives like troops".

A unit that holds objectives may not necessarily be scoring.

Shenra, you can't actually believe yourself can you? =p

Well, just got back from my FLGS, and a very interesting interpretation of the rule. According to (apparently) everyone at my FLGS, any Walker Troop choice (including Death Company Drednaughts and Big Mek Deffdreds) is scoring- because they're 'Walkers', not 'Vehicles', and apparently "Nowhere in the rulebook does it say that Walkers are Vehicles".

This is blatantly wrong, of course, but I though it was interesting.

People at your FLGS need to read a rulebook.

Or share their drugs.

-------

Shenra, Unyielding Anvil says nothing about scoring. This has been pointed out several times.

somerandomdude wrote:

Also, Lukus, no where does it state that only Troops can ever score. As I stated (much) earlier in the thread, Matt Ward wrote the Space Marine codex, which gives an Elite choice the ability to score, and it doesn't throw in the extra clause of "as if it were a Troop".

I already quoted the rulebook, page 90. But anyways, I am now finished in this thread. Good luck to everyone else.

Mannahnin wrote:People at your FLGS need to read a rulebook.

Or share their drugs.

-------

Shenra, Unyielding Anvil says nothing about scoring. This has been pointed out several times.

Hey, I'm gonna try and sway them, but if they aren't to be swayed, good for me! My army gets scoring Deffdredds!

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DaNewBoy wrote:The rulebook also says that Codex rules trump the BRB rules correct?

If the only problem is what is being written in the Codex is contradicting the BRB then the BRB yields to the Codex.

Even if they score "as if" a troops, the passive voice is on the "troop", and the subject (dreadnaught) becomes scoring. The RAW makes the dreadnaught a scoring unit, this rule contradicts the BRB, the BRB always concedes to Codex rules.

Way to not read the thread. First of all, it's specific>general, not Codex>BRB. Secondly, this only works if there's a conflict of rules, which there isn't. Thirdly, scoring like a troop does not mean it's scoring by default. The rule says that the Dreadnought (in this case) claims objectives as troops. Troop Dreadnoughts still do not score. The rule doesn't contradict the BRB at all, you make the Dreadnought score as if it was a troop choice. Vehicles never score, unless there's a special rule outright stating that it does.

Sorry I didn't take the time to read 4 pages of bickering.

If it "holds an objective", how is that not scoring? Holding an objective at the end of the game means that you get the "score" for that objective, correct? Otherwise the language is wasted here because if it "Holds" an objective but doesn't actually "score" then how it is any different then it was before? What I mean is, what would the rule actually be changing?

First of all, your "Secondly" is completely dependent on your "Thirdly". Aside from this being a bass akwords way of presenting your argument, you are also assuming quite a bit. I think that "as a troop" is not in the relation of "as a troop choice". If it were then the rule in question would not need to mention "scoring" because of the shared knowledge of what troops are and are not scoring. Thus the distinction being made that it make "score as a troop". It does what? "Score". How? "As a troop". If it were simply made a troops choice, then the rules would say (as many do) "may be taken as a troops choice".

It would be even poorer writing to say "Is a troop" that it would be to say "scores as a troop."

Can I take 2 dreadnoughts, then, since I can make them the troops for my army? What if I roll a one?

It is much simpler to say "These units score as if they were troops," very clearly (unlike SOME GK rules) that the Dreadnoughts do not score and are not troops.

I still don't understand how if it "does not score" then how it "Holds" an objective "as a troop". Is there some special way a "troop holds" an objective in contrast to the rest of the fielded army. Cause the only way that comes to mind is that a troop scores. I know this is not ALWAYS true, however it is true that ONLY troops can score, again highlighting the difference and the need for the need to say "holds objective as a troop."

There are already rules to make Dreadnaughts 'Troops choice," in this language they are troops but not scoring. This rule highlights specifically that these "hold objective" like "troops." Which the troops choice wording ignores.

DaNewBoy wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DaNewBoy wrote:The rulebook also says that Codex rules trump the BRB rules correct?

If the only problem is what is being written in the Codex is contradicting the BRB then the BRB yields to the Codex.

Even if they score "as if" a troops, the passive voice is on the "troop", and the subject (dreadnaught) becomes scoring. The RAW makes the dreadnaught a scoring unit, this rule contradicts the BRB, the BRB always concedes to Codex rules.

Way to not read the thread. First of all, it's specific>general, not Codex>BRB. Secondly, this only works if there's a conflict of rules, which there isn't. Thirdly, scoring like a troop does not mean it's scoring by default. The rule says that the Dreadnought (in this case) claims objectives as troops. Troop Dreadnoughts still do not score. The rule doesn't contradict the BRB at all, you make the Dreadnought score as if it was a troop choice. Vehicles never score, unless there's a special rule outright stating that it does.

Sorry I didn't take the time to read 4 pages of bickering.

If it "holds an objective", how is that not scoring? Holding an objective at the end of the game means that you get the "score" for that objective, correct? Otherwise the language is wasted here because if it "Holds" an objective but doesn't actually "score" then how it is any different then it was before? What I mean is, what would the rule actually be changing?

First of all, your "Secondly" is completely dependent on your "Thirdly". Aside from this being a bass akwords way of presenting your argument, you are also assuming quite a bit. I think that "as a troop" is not in the relation of "as a troop choice". If it were then the rule in question would not need to mention "scoring" because of the shared knowledge of what troops are and are not scoring. Thus the distinction being made that it make "score as a troop". It does what? "Score". How? "As a troop". If it were simply made a troops choice, then the rules would say (as many do) "may be taken as a troops choice".

My second point doesn't depend on my third at all. It refers to my first point, that it's specific>general and clarifies that this only works when there's an actual conflict. Besides, having a swing at someone for not being at the same skill level in a language as a native speaker is gereally frowned upon.

That said, you're still missing the point. The Dreadnought scores as a troop. How do troop Dreadnoughts score? Not at all, that's how. It doesn't matter if it's made a troops choice or not. It scores as troops, i.e. it follows all the rules for troops in regards to scoring. How can "as a troop" mean anything else than "as a troops choice"?

DaNewBoy wrote: I think that "as a troop" is not in the relation of "as a troop choice". If it were then the rule in question would not need to mention "scoring" because of the shared knowledge of what troops are and are not scoring. Thus the distinction being made that it make "score as a troop". It does what? "Score". How? "As a troop". If it were simply made a troops choice, then the rules would say (as many do) "may be taken as a troops choice".

Now I see how you read it. The problem with that interpretation is that you're not following all the rules for troops scoring. Vehicles and swarms that happen to be troops don't. Thus, if you're a vehicle that "claims objectives as troops", you effectively count as troops for the purpouse of holding objectives.

Again can someone explain how "holding" an objective works? From my understanding "holding" an objective at the end of the match counts as "scoring" the objective.

If it means only that the objective is "contested" and neither team can claim the score as no troops capable of scoring are close enough, then this rule doesn't actually "do" anything because nothing is changing.

If it means the former and to me the intuitive conclusion, then the dreadnaught for all intents and purposes is scoring.

It doesn't say that you "Hold an objective." It has a modifier on it, that you "Hold and objective as a troop." That modifier changes the meaning of the first part, to include in the rule the rules for how all troops hold objectives. And holding objectives like a troop doesn't always mean that you successfully hold that objective, namely if you're a vehicle (or swarm), which the Drednaught is.

The thing is, you need to look at a bigger picture. This rule can be used on any of the Grey Knights units, and so must be able to be applied properly to any of them- proper in this case apparently meaning that Drednaughts cannot score, while the others can. The easiest way (though not the best, obviously) to do this is to add a modifier to Unyielding Anvil that would allow all units effected by it, except Walkers, to hold objectives, because there aren't any more specific rules preventing them from doing that.

If the rule had said "Allows units effected by this rule to score" there wouldn't be any argument, and Walkers could score. "Allows units effected by this rule, except for Walkers, Swarms, and units with special rules saying they never count as Scoring units, are allowed to score."

The first, again, brooks no argument, but arguably makes the Grey Knights OP (ha!). The second is long and unwieldy, and probably wouldn't fit into the codex that well, though it, also, is very clear. However, "as if they were Troops," instead of taking up Codex space reprinting a rule, redirects your inquiries of "does it score?" to the BRB, where there is a rule that says Vehicles and Swarms cannot score if they are troops.

AS far as i know when the main rule book and the codex contradict each other, the codex over-rules the main rule book. So normally a Troops Walker couldnt hold objectives, like a Deffdread for instance, but in the GK Codex it includes Walkers as a unit type to be included by Grand Strategy. So IMO Dreadnoughts with Grand Strategy: Unyielding Anvil are scoring.

A Tactical Squad's empty Rhino is a Troop, because the Tactical Squad is a Troop. When you put the empty Rhino on an objective, how well does that Troop hold the objective?

The Dreadnought scores and hold objectives exactly as well as the Tactical Squad's empty Rhino does.

Drake118 wrote:AS far as i know when the main rule book and the codex contradict each other, the codex over-rules the main rule book. So normally a Troops Walker couldnt hold objectives, like a Deffdread for instance, but in the GK Codex it includes Walkers as a unit type to be included by Grand Strategy. So IMO Dreadnoughts with Grand Strategy: Unyielding Anvil are scoring.

And you're not the first to post this theory in the thread, let alone this page. For the umpteenth time: It ISN'T Codex>BRB it's specific>general, and it doesn't even apply here, as there's no conflict in the first place!

This rule if it is to be interpreted the way you, it still not actually "doing" anything. Nothing is being changed.

DaNewBoy wrote:This rule if it is to be interpreted the way you, it still not actually "doing" anything. Nothing is being changed.

Try reposting that message. I'm having a hard time deciphering what you mean, other than something being wrong with my interpretation?

What i dont get is why it lists jump infantry when there are not any in the codex.

Just for the record i say dreads can score

I think it's something about the whole 'specific>general:Codex>BRB, and about that not being relevant to the discussion?

My point is, the rule should serve a purpose. If the dread doesn't count as scoring, then the rule isn't actually changing anything and is an effect waste of ink and paper.

A dread is already not a scoring unit, and therefore it does not need a rule stating that it can "hold an objective as a troop," as some kind of cleverly confusing way of saying it doesn't actually hold objectives (which was the case before the rule as well).

It would be like making rule called "Dread swarm" and the rule states "All dreads fielded count as a scoring unit, unless they are a vehicle type unit."

Except, as has been repeated over and over, Grand Strategy has FOUR effects, only one of which does not benefit walkers.

The "as a Troop" part is totally meaningless and a useless waste of text UNLESS it is intended to exclude the dreadnoughts.

If they wanted the Dreadnoughts to score, Unyielding Anvil could have more easily just said that the selected units become scoring units.