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I can't believe that people are arguing that "as a troop" = "is a troop" which it clearly isn't. In practical terms the GM has stuck a bit of cardboard on the front of a dread saying "this is a troops choice" when in reality it's still a dread underneath and doesn't in anyway shape or form become a troops vehicle, it becomes an elite/heavy support vehicle that scores as if it were a troops choice.

It doesn't score. It holds objectives as if it were a troop.

Troop Dreadnoughts (like the Death Company Dreadnought, and Ork Deth Dread taken in an army with a Big Mekk) don't hold objectives. The GK Dread, if selected for the Unyielding Anvil portion of Grand Strategy, holds objectives in exactly the same way at those two Dreads. That is, it doesn't.

It can still benefit from the other three effects of GS just fine.

I can't believe how badly people are at reading the actual rules. The amount of time the"can score" people have misquoted the Unyielding Anvil text under Grand Strategy is mindblowing.

Just putting my thoughts here as to why I believe that when following the rules GK Dreadnoughts do not score:

Step 1. Unyielding Anvil allows you to make a Dreadnought claim objectives as if it was troops (GK codex page 22).
Step 2. As it will claim objectives as if it is a troop we will have to look to see how this works on the field.
Step 3. We read rules in the rulebook
Step 4. The rules in the rulebook specify that a unit can be scoring if it is troops, except when it is a vehicle, swarm or has a special rule that says it can never score (rulebook page 90).
Step 5. As a Dreadnought is a vehicle this means that claiming objectives as if it was a troop choice means it can not be a scoring unit.

Now there are a lot of people that are claiming Dreadnought can score. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find an argument based on the actual rules (or quotes or page numbers for that matter). Many posts either misquote Unyielding Anvil to have scoring already in it or they are misusing the specific > general idea. So to clear that up:

- Unyielding Anvil specifies Infantry, Jump infantry, Monstrous Creatures and Walkers units can claim objectives as if they were troops. This does not automatically make those selections scoring units, they still need to abide by the rules for scoring units.
- There is no contradiction between the Unyielding Anvil entry in the Grey Knight codex and the Scoring units entry in the rulebook, as such there is no general vs specific issue.

Also something that keeps bothering me is that somehow there is an argument that if dreadnoughts can not score with this rule the entire rule is useless, completely negating that this rule also can make your paladins,purifiers,interceptors,purgators and dreadkights scoring. As well as that there are 3 more strategies that are perfectly useful for dreadnoughts.

fox40 wrote:What i dont get is why it lists jump infantry when there are not any in the codex.

Just for the record i say dreads can score

Wrong and wrong. Interceptors are Jump Infantry, GK Dreads don't score.

DutchSage wrote:

Just putting my thoughts here as to why I believe that when following the rules GK Dreadnoughts do not score:

Step 1. Unyielding Anvil allows you to make a Dreadnought claim objectives as if it was troops (GK codex page 22).
Step 2. As it will claim objectives as if it is a troop we will have to look to see how this works on the field.
Step 3. We read rules in the rulebook
Step 4. The rules in the rulebook specify that a unit can be scoring if it is troops, except when it is a vehicle, swarm or has a special rule that says it can never score (rulebook page 90).
Step 5. As a Dreadnought is a vehicle this means that claiming objectives as if it was a troop choice means it can not be a scoring unit.

Reading through this thread, I have went back and forth as to what I think on this issue. While I really feel that RAI, GS was intended to make dreads able to score; DutchSage makes a really good case as to why they can not score. I think that, until an FAQ is written on this subject, that dreads should not be able to hold an objective.

fox40 wrote:What i dont get is why it lists jump infantry when there are not any in the codex.

Just for the record i say dreads can score

Just for the record, I say that when I play against you, every weapon in my army is STR10 AP1 Ordinance.

That is...unless we're going to both agree to follow the rules presented to us in our respective codices?

Dreadnoughts as a general rule can't score. Troop dreadnoughts can't score. Dreadnoughts that score as if they were troops can't score. Grand Strategy doesn't give them permission to score. What makes you think they can?

Please, oh mighty lords of Dakka, save these GK RAW threads -- then cross reference the most adamant, flowchart-ridden posts when GW declines their entreaties with a simple Yes or a No, as has happened with the last few FAQs.

Dash disagrees with pretty much every use of Grand Strategy. New codex is bad! Grr!

Got it -- STR10 AP1. Take your toys and go home.

Well in the end of course when GW adds an errata or FAQ that says something different we will abide. But currently the rules are clear on how they work and there is no reason to play it differently. The only reason to play them as scoring is because you want them too, not because the rules say they can.

Similarly I want my warrior acolytes to have strength 10 AP 1 laspistols. According to your logic I should play them like that as even though nothing in the current rules justify doing that, but because I think it should of course GW will FAQ it in the future that they will. And when my opponent would object me not playing according to the rules he is the one that is at fault, because obviously GW intended it that way.

There is a reason RAW is the default. Especially in cases where there is no ambiguity in the written rules. What we have here is one group of players that argues the intention of the rule is different from what it says while the other group argues that the intention of the rule is what the rule says. Seeing as one side has no other argument than "because I think it should" the discussion mostly comes down to, "I will play it as scoring and if my opponent wants me to play by the rules he is a jerk". No amount of clarification why the rules say Dreadnoughts do not score will convince this group as they believe their view on what the intention is supersedes what the actual rules say.

I wouldn't say that... I think we've convinced a fair few with this thread, actually.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

fox40 wrote:What i dont get is why it lists jump infantry when there are not any in the codex.

Just for the record i say dreads can score

Wrong and wrong. Interceptors are Jump Infantry, GK Dreads don't score.

personally i say you are wrong. Under there unit type interceptors are infantry.
they dont follow the standard jump infantry rule of 12 inch moves, they just have wargear that allows them once per game they can jump, or are you going to a agree a dreadknight with pt is a jump infantry unit and not a monsterous creature.

As for the dread point. I understand why people say no, but the rule has no exclusion of the dread and it says as if a troop, not as if a troop walker. Troops score, troop walkers dont, the dread for grey knights is a heavy or elite walking that can claim objectives as if a troop( not as if a troop walker) the walker status does not transfer to the anvil rule, the anvil rule transfers the ability to the dread.

Lets be honest if ruled that dreads cant score all the player does is take more dreadknights. Do you wanna face scoring dreads or scoring dreadknights.

fox40 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

fox40 wrote:What i dont get is why it lists jump infantry when there are not any in the codex.

Just for the record i say dreads can score

Wrong and wrong. Interceptors are Jump Infantry, GK Dreads don't score.

personally i say you are wrong. Under there unit type interceptors are infantry.
they dont follow the standard jump infantry rule of 12 inch moves, they just have wargear that allows them once per game they can jump, or are you going to a agree a dreadknight with pt is a jump infantry unit and not a monsterous creature.

"Personal Teleporters: Units with Personal Teleporters are Jump Infantry." Took me 2 seconds to find after flipping the book open. Regarding the Dreadknight, it's jump infantry with a teleporter. Doesn't say that it ceases to be an MC.

fox40 wrote:
As for the dread point. I understand why people say no, but the rule has no exclusion of the dread and it says as if a troop, not as if a troop walker. Troops score, troop walkers dont, the dread for grey knights is a heavy or elite walking that can claim objectives as if a troop( not as if a troop walker) the walker status does not transfer to the anvil rule, the anvil rule transfers the ability to the dread.

"The nominated unit may claim objectives as if they were Troops." Tell me, if a walker is a troop, does it score?

It says as if they where troops, not troop, walker.
If somebody wants to argue the point in a game ill just replace the dreadnought with a dreadknight. Then no arguement.

fox40 wrote:It says as if they where troops, not troop, walker.

Of course it doesn't say 'troop, walker'... that wouldn't make much sense if th eunit in question was infantry.

Being Troops has no impact on the unit type, though. Infantry are Infantry, whether they come from Troops, Elites, Heavy Support, or whatever. Same with vehicles. So a vehicle that comes from a different section of the army list is still a vehicle if some rule allows it to count as Troops.

The rule doesn't say to ignore the fact that it is a vehicle. It just says to count it can capture an objective as if it were a Troop choice. A Troops choice vehicle is a vehicle... and so can not capture objectives. So a vehicle that is allowed by a rule to capture objectives as if it were a Troops choice can not capture objectives.

Dashofpepper wrote:
Just for the record, I say that when I play against you, every weapon in my army is STR10 AP1 Ordinance.

That is...unless we're going to both agree to follow the rules presented to us in our respective codices?

These are prime examples of why YMDC is unnecessarily hostile. You can an argument, albeit a weak one, that the rule reads that Dreads can score.

When you say they can hold objectives, "as if they were a troops choice," I agree with the majority that the most natural reading is that the Dreadnought has the qualities of a troops choice, for the purposes of holding objective. In this case, "as if" means "just like"

You could read the "as if" to mean, "in the manner of," which would mean the sentence reads "hold objectives the same way a troops choice does." Now, again, I think that you should interpret even that to mean that a dread wouldn't score, but I think at some point you can argue that it's just a poorly written way of saying "the damn thing can hold an objective."

While it's easy to get short tempered when people who clearly haven't followed the thread chime in, being hostile and hyperbolic doesn't solve much. If for no other reason, they're only likely to read responses to them, see an over the top and insulting reply, and decide that only TFG disagrees with them.

I agree with Polonius.

Since the thread has not managed to reach a conclusion in six pages and it is starting to get flamey, I shall lock it.