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Have you ever had the frustrating feeling when you know you're right, but can't find the actual rule written?

I play warhammer without having read so much of the rules (not because I can't read, obviously), I mainly learn by playing, and have been playing for a long time. So I'm mostly certain about rules and how the game should be played. So when I play against someone who don't know the rules that well, and also tries to bend the rules to their advantage, I get real stubborn! But how to win the argument when you don't have the rulebook, or you don't know where to find what you're looking for, or if what you're looking for actually comes from a FAQ or other internet publicated updates from GW?

Now I usually want to not be a fruitcake about it, just let it go. Don't make a fuzz, enjoy the game and don't bother so much about details. But it also bothers me alot knowing we play the game wrong, and that I am actually correct. So sometimes, I send a message to some other friends so they can back up my claim, but I feel I invest too much into the case by doing it.

Anyone have a good story like this to share?

I know the exact feeling. You could swear that you've seen that rule somewhere, but when you get called on it, you can't find it anywhere in your codex, in the BRB.

For example, in a recent game, I was thoroughly convinced that you got an additional +1 to vehicle damage tables from using a melta weapon, on top of using a weapon that was AP1

However, I couldn't find it in the book, so naturally, I didn't use the rule. Still haven't found it to this day.

i cant stand it when you constantly see contradicting rules in codex's. for example canis wolfborn, it says he has rending in the codex, but because of the thunderwolf rule he does not have rending cause of his lightning claws. well logicly i would assume that because its specificly in the profile for canis he SHOULD have rending. but in GW's infinite wisdom. they said NO he doesnt.

but melta doesn't give you +1 bonus. it gives you 2d6 to pen if at/under half range.

When this happens to me it is normally in a FAQ, sometimes from previous editions too (i.e. necrons 3rd,4th and 5th FAQ's don't all address the same issues)

This is when you roll a dice. Goes the other persons way on a 4+, whoever rolls highest, however you want to do it. Just smile, roll off, use that ruling for the rest of the game, and look it up later.

I don't argue if I don't have a rulebook. This saves time and stress.

If I have a rulebook but can't find the relevant passage, I set a cap by feel on how much time I'll expend looking. The amount being dependent on whether I'm in a timed tournament, the tolerance level of my opponent, how sure I am, etc.

After a certain point it's better just to get on with the game.

If I have an experience like this it normally encourages me to give the rulebook yet another cover-to-cover read. I can't imagine being stubborn about rules without having given the rulebook at least a couple of those.

mulkers wrote:but melta doesn't give you +1 bonus. it gives you 2d6 to pen if at/under half range.

When this happens to me it is normally in a FAQ, sometimes from previous editions too (i.e. necrons 3rd,4th and 5th FAQ's don't all address the same issues)

Hi there, the vehicle damage table specifically states a +1 modifier is awarded to weapons with an ap1 profile (pgs 61 and 302 of the big rule book).

Project2501 wrote:

mulkers wrote:but melta doesn't give you +1 bonus. it gives you 2d6 to pen if at/under half range.

When this happens to me it is normally in a FAQ, sometimes from previous editions too (i.e. necrons 3rd,4th and 5th FAQ's don't all address the same issues)

Hi there, the vehicle damage table specifically states a +1 modifier is awarded to weapons with an ap1 profile (pgs 61 and 302 of the big rule book).

Hi there, it also doesn't specifically say the melta rule adds +1 to the vehicle damage table, it just so happens that most (every?) melta weapon is AP1, they are not one and the same.

The meltra rule works completely differently and independently of the AP1+vehicle damage rule

You know they are two different rules, right?

For two different purposes?

Often for more than two types of weapons?

mulkers wrote:

Project2501 wrote:

mulkers wrote:but melta doesn't give you +1 bonus. it gives you 2d6 to pen if at/under half range.

When this happens to me it is normally in a FAQ, sometimes from previous editions too (i.e. necrons 3rd,4th and 5th FAQ's don't all address the same issues)

Hi there, the vehicle damage table specifically states a +1 modifier is awarded to weapons with an ap1 profile (pgs 61 and 302 of the big rule book).

Hi there, it also doesn't specifically say the melta rule adds +1 to the vehicle damage table, it just so happens that most (every?) melta weapon is AP1, they are not one and the same.

The meltra rule works completely differently and independently of the AP1+vehicle damage rule

You know they are two different rules, right?

For two different purposes?

Often for more than two types of weapons?

Hi there, you know that melta refers to the meltaweapon not the melta rule right?

You know that you said melta only, not specifying the melta rule correct?

You do know that they are two different things yes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dr_Wasabi wrote:I know the exact feeling. You could swear that you've seen that rule somewhere, but when you get called on it, you can't find it anywhere in your codex, in the BRB.

For example, in a recent game, I was thoroughly convinced that you got an additional +1 to vehicle damage tables from using a melta weapon, on top of using a weapon that was AP1

However, I couldn't find it in the book, so naturally, I didn't use the rule. Still haven't found it to this day.

Pgs 61 and 302 of the big rule book.

HAd a guy say a sergeant upgrade to one of his tau squads had 3 wounds. He had no codex and it was just a sergeant... Um no he has one wound... Not 3... Just a fire warrior sergeant.

Dr_Wasabi wrote:I know the exact feeling. You could swear that you've seen that rule somewhere, but when you get called on it, you can't find it anywhere in your codex, in the BRB.

For example, in a recent game, I was thoroughly convinced that you got an additional +1 to vehicle damage tables from using a melta weapon, on top of using a weapon that was AP1

However, I couldn't find it in the book, so naturally, I didn't use the rule. Still haven't found it to this day.

You won't find it because it doesn't.

Melta gives 2d6 armour pen (this is the same for both bombs and wepons)
Ap1 gives +1 damage roll (this is the same for all AP1_

So a necron monolith stops you getting your 2d6 but you can still wreck it with a 6 which will glance and a 6 (-2 for glancing but +1 for melta) to give you a 5 on the damage table.

Hi there, you know that melta refers to the meltaweapon not the melta rule right?

You know that you said melta only, not specifying the melta rule correct?

You do know that they are two different things yes?

Could you please show how in weapons entries 'melta' is given in the 'type' section refers to them being meltaweapon, and not utilizing the rule.

Are you saying that meltaweapons do not utilize the melta rule?

Are the two not directly connected?

Another good way to counteract the "can't find the rule" thing is trying to answer as many rules queries as possible on YMDC, you'll get to know the rulebook inside-out that way really quick, and be called on mistakes faster than you can hit the edit button

If you can't find a rule then I don't think you can claim to play it!

The other week I knew that Beasts and Cav couldn't assault on the top level of a building but I couldn't find it in the beasts and cav section therefore I couldn't play it, later on I checked where it was when I had more time and the benefit of others knowledge I know where the rule is and I won't make that mistake again.

i try not to make an issue. if a rules dispute comes up, i try to find the faq or actual rule quick. if we cant find it then we dice off and house rule and get on with the game, looking it up in depth afterwards. why bog a game down with needless rules disputes?

even in a tourney i would suggest in a situation where you cant prove your point, and neither can the otherside, just dice it. a long winded rules dispute can kill the mood and enjoyment of a game faster then a maurading cat on the table. dont let either happen. also not a good idea to leave food or drinks near the gaming area unattended.... freakin ninja cats i swear...

Baxx wrote: But how to win the argument when you don't have the rulebook, or you don't know where to find what you're looking for, or if what you're looking for actually comes from a FAQ or other internet publicated updates from GW?

Why are you playing without a rulebook? Have your rulebook and codex always and insist that your opponent has his codex. I also recommend having all the FAQs available as well. (FYI, there are no GW internet published updates other than the FAQs)

Without these you're simply arguing about your memories of the rules - not discussing the actual rules.

Know your rulebook. Read it, read it, read it. Put markers on useful pages if it helps.

Dr_Wasabi wrote:For example, in a recent game, I was thoroughly convinced that you got an additional +1 to vehicle damage tables from using a melta weapon, on top of using a weapon that was AP1 However, I couldn't find it in the book, so naturally, I didn't use the rule. Still haven't found it to this day.

You won't find it because it doesn't exist.

To have the rule book close at hand is important.
If you can't find the rule quickly, decide on a friendly, and equilibrate, agreement. If you get sick about being right or wrong, without any proof, you obviously will not enjoy the game. That's the worst thing.

Not all melta weapons are AP1. From memory the SAGG can roll a melta result but is AP2

Not tha SAG, but the Weirdboy. The "Zzap!"-result is S10 DS2 melta.

Inferno Pistols in the WH book are also S8 AP2.

I love the fact that the first two posters in this thread are a guy who 'just knows' the rules without being able to actually find it written anywhere and a guy who was frustrated at not being able to find a rule he 'knew' that doesn't exist. I think that says it all.

DS2?

AP.

This happens to me the first time I played.

I read the rule book once, remembered it all, (all the bits I read anyway)

Then I started to play with my firend who had the rule book for months so I relied on him for the rules untill.

he got his rules wrong, he tried to use quick silver (initialtive 10) on the deamon hammer (thunder hammer rule) which is always initialtive 1.

Then his warp rift (makes my ork take initailtive test or die) its one dice not two. also it doesn't work on walkers.

Then he started to use stuff when he can't use, e.g. (only in assault phase).

I really wanted to prove that his wrong but since i don't know the codex or rule book that well I can't the first time.

Even with his rediculous rules I still got a draw between my orks and his GK.

ALSO just to say, what you read in the codex is always correct, its says that in the rule book.

Simo429 wrote:You won't find it because it doesn't.

Melta gives 2d6 armour pen (this is the same for both bombs and wepons)
Ap1 gives +1 damage roll (this is the same for all AP1_

So a necron monolith stops you getting your 2d6 but you can still wreck it with a 6 which will glance and a 6 (-2 for glancing but +1 for melta) to give you a 5 on the damage table.

Heh, I realise this now after having read the rulebook much closer. I think what I did was on one of my initial glaces through the rulebook, I saw that AP1 gave +1 on the vehicle damage table, and that meltaguns have a special rule associated with penetration. Somewhere between having looked at the book and actually getting to use my meltas on a vehicle, I somehow reinterpreted it to be that melta weapons got +1 for AP1 and +1 for being melta.

That made it extra frustrating, however. I couldn't find a rule that I thought existed because it didn't exist!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Marthike wrote:This happens to me the first time I played.

I read the rule book once, remembered it all, (all the bits I read anyway)

Then I started to play with my firend who had the rule book for months so I relied on him for the rules untill.

he got his rules wrong, he tried to use quick silver (initialtive 10) on the deamon hammer (thunder hammer rule) which is always initialtive 1.

Then his warp rift (makes my ork take initailtive test or die) its one dice not two. also it doesn't work on walkers.

Then he started to use stuff when he can't use, e.g. (only in assault phase).

I really wanted to prove that his wrong but since i don't know the codex or rule book that well I can't the first time.

Even with his rediculous rules I still got a draw between my orks and his GK.

ALSO just to say, what you read in the codex is always correct, its says that in the rule book.

Sounds like you got taken for a ride, then.

In my group: Generally, if it stops play for more than 5 minutes, we'll roll it if we can't agree on a pro-tem solution. We'll then check it after the battle and know for next time.

The Zoat wrote:DS2?

My fault
Durchschlag = Armor Piercing

As not all kids are good at English, I own the ork codex in both English and German

the other day i played my friends grey knight army, his calidus assassin DS'd 3 inches from one of my tervigons. he neuroshreadered it, and i cant remember if he wounded it with the shreader and claimed it instant deathed it or assaulted the same turn and killed it with the c'tan blade.

later i find out that the whole instance should not have happened. i also dont know if the error was deliberate or not cause his head wasnt in the game,

he also argued with me weather the +1 to reserve rolls given from the hive commander on my HT ment that by turn 4 everything left in reserve came in, he was insisting i needed to make a 2+ roll. i was like --- uhh no. with hive commander on turn 2 i get a 3+ reserve roll, turn 3 a 2+, and turn 4 is automatic. he looked at me like i was stoned

FAQ is only a PDF click away.

Why not have someone "officiate" you games... this individual can read and can aslo have the final say on matters.