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In my last post i was trying to find out about the hydraphant and get some information about the collosal titan. I found out almost nothing but the tread is still open if you know anything. This post however is for Posting rules for the hydraphant and if you have any scratch builds post pictures either post here or on my other post. Only post if you are proposing rules or commenting on someones rules. Don't waffle on about fluff because that is what my other post if for. You can find this post if you go onto my profile. Here are my proposed rules...
(i know some of them are not allowed but i am just making a better version of the heirophant. here is the picture i am using for inspiration)


Hydraphant Bio Titan
The Hydraphant is the single largest terrestrially deployable Tyranid organism known to the Imperium of Man. The beast is so massive it can crush the largest super heavy tanks in seconds and even topple the mighty war engines of the Titan Legions.

Stats:
l Ws l Bs l S l T l W l I l A l Ld l Sv l
l 5 l 5 l 10 l 10 l 15 l 6 l 4 l 10 l 2+ l

Special Rules:
Agile, Gargantuan Creature, Feel no Pain (3+), Invunrible Save (3+), Psyker (Mastery lvl 1)

Synapse Creature: This creature acts as a huge synaptic post with a very strong link to the Hive Mind. The Hydraphant has a synapse range of 36".

Weapons:

Lash Whips, Sything talons,

Hyrda-Destructor Cannon:
This Gargantuan Bio gun fires Huge sacs filled with the most corrosive substance known to the imperium.

l S l AP l R l
l D l 1 l 48" l
Assault 6, Ordanance, Large Blast, Melta,
OR
Assault 1, Ordanance, Apoc Blast Template, Melta,

Special Rules:
Acid Bombs- The shots fired by this Massive bio weapon are large acid filled sacs designed to melt tanks and destroy even the most resistant armour.
No saves of any kind can be taken against the Hydra-Destructor Cannons shots. In addition, when shooting vehicles, a penatrating hit counts as being 2+ on the vehicle damage table. On a roll of a six on a vehicle with stucture points this takes 2 structure points off instead of one.

Chaotic Spur- As the hydraphant fires its massive guns it is unable to control the raw power being launched.
Any shots that scatter will do so by the dice rolled and will not deduct any balistic skill. Any shots that have a direct hit must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2d6. A direct hit on the second roll does not have to be re-rolled. Each shot scatters seperatly. Once all the models hit have been determined begin rolling of dice. Roll for each unit seperatly unless they are two units of the same stats. Vehicles should be rolled seperatly.

Lingering Acid- Even after the cannons acid has dissolved into the ground, any unit covered in the acid will suffer its painful effects.
At the start of the opponents next turn, any units hit by the Hydra-Destructor Cannons shots must take a single S5 AP3 hit. Saves can be taken as normal agaisnt these hits but no cover save can be taken. This does not affect Vehicles, Walkers, Monstrous Creatures or Gargantuan Creatures

Single Bombardment- As well as rapid firing its huge gun, a Hydraphant can choose to focus its bombs into a single focused shot with devastating results. At the start of the shooting phase, declare which ammunition the Hydraphant will use between the two in the weapons profile. Only one can be fired each turn. The assault 1 shot scatters normally instead of using the Chaotic Spur.


Plasma Breath:
The Hydraphant, although it does not look so from the outside, does share certain abilities with the monstrous carnifex. In particular the ability to produce pure plasma within its body and regurgatate it as a powerful attack capable of melting Space Marines inside their armour.

l S l AP l
l 8 l 2 l
Assault 1, Hellstorm,

Spore Mine Bombardment:
From the Chimnies on the back of the Hydrafant, the beast can launch clusters of Spore Mines, much like the bombarments from the loathed Biovores. The Hydraphant can launch dozens of these spores at the same time for devastating, long range results

l S l AP l R l
l 5 l 4 l 108" l
Assault 12, Ordanance, Cluster Apoc Template,

Special Rules:

Linked Synapse- By linking Synapse between hive ships in orbit and the Hydraphant its-self, a strong link is formed to the spore mines. This attack does not scatter.

Spore Cloud- Any Model within 12" of the Hydraphant games a 4+ cover save from the mass of fumes being produced as the creature digests previous victims.

Psychic Abilities:

Gargantuan Horror- Used in the Hydraphants Shooting Phase, if this Psychic power is activated, the Hydraphant lets out a wave of Psychic fear much like a hive tyrant. Every enemy model within 36" must Imediatly take a Moral check test at -5 leadership or retreat in their next movement phase to the nearest board edge.

Shadow In The Warp- Any model attempting to use a psychic ability either within 36" of the Hydraphant or on the Hydraphant its-self must immediatly take a perils in the warp. If the model is killed by the perils of the warp the power does not take effect. In addition, the Hydraphant can use this as a psychic shooting attack with the following profile-

l S l AP l R l
l - l - l 36" l

This Attack will hit a single psyker (or unit of psykers) and force them to take a leadership test at -5. If this test is failed, all models in the unit are removed from play with no saves of any kind alloud. This attack represents a huge psychic overload that litterally overcharges and melts the minds of the targeted individual.



These are the rules i have Improvised for a Hydraphant. What do you guys think of it? What would you change about?

a yup, you won't have very many friends if you try to field this in a game.

For reference, the humble Hierophant is considered one of the most powerful super heavies in the game if it has a 3++ invulnerable save from warp field as opposed to the 6++ originally intended.

What you are proposing has a 50% increase in survivability, better guns, and FnP.

I'd be hesitant to create something more powerful than the Hierophant if you actually enjoy having friends...

Captain Solon, I see you've returned ;-)

Anyway there are so many things wrong with this thing I don't know where to begin. I'll post proper criticism when I have access to a computer rather than a phone

This seems to be more a case of "design your invincible unit" and a real attempt to create something usable, to be honest.

Her's a hint: any unit that could lay down multiple large templates of anti-tank strength and AP in each firing phase would already be hideously over the top, titan or not, even if it was weak and vulnerable to enemy fire.

I don't even see any cost estimation. Such an abomination would probably need to be in the 25-40k range, and then who would play with you?

As long as its cost is appropriate and your opponents agree to play with ridiculous made-up rules, I don't see anything wrong with it.

*EDIT*

Make it between the 10000pt and the 20000pt price range.

Hi!

I like that you're creating new Tyranid Creatures, as I like playing them myself! Though, I think there is alot to be done to make this unit fun to play with (and against!).

To start with, the guns you gave your Tyranid are better then any weapon the IoM ever made! Titan weapons are like lasguns compared to this! I would change the Strength to 10, AP: 2 or 3, Range: at least 72" (Come on, it's way bigger then a warhound!). I'd also change the Acid Bomb special rule, as Tyranids arn't known for their Anit-Tank skills.

Then there is the Plasma-Breath and Spore Mine Launcher. I like both ideas, but they are also extremely powerfull at the moment. Tone them done quite a bit to make them playable.

Then his defences, you gave this puppy T: 10 Sv: 2+/3+ W:15, 4+ cover save, and feel no pain(3+)! Trust me, there is NO way your Tyranid is going to die in ANY battle! I'd change his wounds to 10 (Like the Hierophant), and his inv to 5+ (Which is better then a Hierophant, if you play by the Apoc rules). You should consider dropping Feel no Pain, and adding regeneration (Like in the codex, every 6 rolled restores one wound), as that special rule is more common for big Tyranid Creatures.

For his Psychic abilities: I would give him a cool psychic power from the Codex with an increased range, add more range to his SITW and Synapse Creature, and then leave it with that. Your psychic powers are seriously evil, as there is a good chance the entire enemy army is running by turn 1!

Another suggestion, if you really think it needs more than 10 wounds, give him 1 or 2 Mass points. They are used in Imperial armour, they work like Structure Points.

Hope it helped!
Feluca

umm... forgive me if im wrong but dosnt G.W. already have rules for this monster...

master of ordinance wrote:umm... forgive me if im wrong but dosnt G.W. already have rules for this monster...

Nope, only for Hierophant which is far smaller than (see OP for scale) this

You have given the guns a D strength weapon, so why does it need melta or ordinance? Change the template to 6 small blasts. Get rid of the acid bomb rule, this is very similiar to the rules for destroyer weapons.
Lingering acid sounds cumbersome, and probably wont add much value, get rid of this to smooth gameplay.
The spore mines should scatter, or halve the number of shots to make it less overpowered.

Change the cover save so that the model doesnt benefit from it. Its too big!

Change the psychic powers, reduce the scream to -2Ld and 18" range.
Change shadow in the warp to 24" and 3d6.
Change the SitW scream to -2Ld and 36" range.

As for the stats.... It T10!! so why bother with FnP or the armor save? The only things able to hurt it are lascannons and railguns or D Strength weapons.
A 5+inv seems much better, as this guy is a Gargantuan creature, you dont suffer any of the vulnerabilities of vehicle superheavies.

Maybe 6-8k points, as with these changes, it still seems better than a Warlord Titan in power.

Hydraphant Bio Titan
The Hydraphant is the single largest terrestrially deployable Tyranid organism known to the Imperium of Man. The beast is so massive it can crush the largest super heavy tanks in seconds and even topple the mighty war engines of the Titan Legions.

Stats:
l Ws l Bs l S l T l W l I l A l Ld l Sv l
l 5 l 5 l 10 l 10 l 12 l 3 l 4 l 10 l 3++ l

Special Rules:
Agile, Gargantuan Creature, Regeneration (6+), Invulnerable Save (3+), Psyker (Mastery lvl 1)

Synapse Creature: This creature acts as a huge synaptic post with a very strong link to the Hive Mind. The Hydraphant has a synapse range of 36".

Weapons:

Lash Whips, Sything talons,

Hyrda-Destructor Cannon:
This Gargantuan Bio gun fires Huge sacs filled with the most corrosive substance known to the imperium.

l S l AP l R l
l 10 l 1 l 48" l
Assault 6, Ordanance, Large Blast, Lance
OR
Assault 1, Ordanance, Apoc Blast Template, Lance

Special Rules:
Acid Bombs- The shots fired by this Massive bio weapon are large acid filled sacs designed to melt tanks and destroy even the most resistant armour.
No saves of any kind can be taken against the Hydra-Destructor Cannons shots. In addition, when shooting vehicles, a penatrating hit counts as being 2+ on the vehicle damage table. On a roll of a six on a vehicle with stucture points this takes 2 structure points off instead of one.

Chaotic Spur- As the hydraphant fires its massive guns it is unable to control the raw power being launched.
Any shots that scatter will do so by the dice rolled and will not deduct any balistic skill. Any shots that have a direct hit must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2d6. A direct hit on the second roll does not have to be re-rolled. Each shot scatters seperatly. Once all the models hit have been determined begin rolling of dice. Roll for each unit seperatly unless they are two units of the same stats. Vehicles should be rolled seperatly.

Single Bombardment- As well as rapid firing its huge gun, a Hydraphant can choose to focus its bombs into a single focused shot with devastating results. At the start of the shooting phase, declare which ammunition the Hydraphant will use between the two in the weapons profile. Only one can be fired each turn. The assault 1 shot scatters normally instead of using the Chaotic Spur.


Plasma Breath:
The Hydraphant, although it does not look so from the outside, does share certain abilities with the monstrous carnifex. In particular the ability to produce pure plasma within its body and regurgatate it as a powerful attack capable of melting Space Marines inside their armour.

l S l AP l
l 8 l 2 l
Assault 1, Hellstorm,

Spore Mine Bombardment:
From the Chimnies on the back of the Hydrafant, the beast can launch clusters of Spore Mines, much like the bombarments from the loathed Biovores. The Hydraphant can launch dozens of these spores at the same time for devastating, long range results

l S l AP l R l
l 5 l 4 l 108" l
Assault 12, Ordanance, Cluster Apoc Template,

Special Rules:


Psychic Abilities:

Gargantuan Horror- Used in the Hydraphants Shooting Phase, if this Psychic power is activated, the Hydraphant lets out a wave of Psychic fear much like a hive tyrant. Every enemy model within 18" must Imediatly take a Moral check test at -3 leadership or retreat in their next movement phase to the nearest board edge.

Shadow In The Warp- Any model attempting to use a psychic ability either within 36" of the Hydraphant or on the Hydraphant its-self must immediatly take a Pass a psychic test 3d6 at -2 Ld.In addition the Hydraphant can use this as a psychic shooting attack with the following profile-

l S l AP l R l
l - l - l 36" l

This Attack will hit a single psyker (or unit of psykers) and force them to take a leadership test at -3. If this test is failed, all models (Psyker) in the unit are removed from play with no saves of any kind alloud. This attack represents a huge psychic overload that litterally overcharges and melts the minds of the targeted individual.

Points - 8500

These are the changes i would make

I quite like that Idea. The reason I had made it strength D was because i was trying to make it as powerful as the Emperor class titan. I was also going to make it bigger than the picture. And by the way, the emperor titan is only 4,000 points and look at its stats...
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2440056_Imperial_Datasheet_-_Emperor_Battle_Titan.pdf

Its freakin overkill and i was trying to make something to match it. I would use the stats that Lord Magnus has suggested but 8,000pts is way to much. i would say 3,500 to 4,000. Probably 4,750...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have another idea. I could just give it ten wounds and then give it this rule and make the feel no pain 4+:

Warp Shields:
As the Hydraphant is a last measure of the hive mind to overcome any foe, the hive mind strives to protect the gargantuan creature to stop any foe from killing the beast. The Hydraphant has 4 Synaptic Shields that use the same rules as void shields as described in the Apocolypse Rulebook.

Another thing was that the plasma breath. I actually just took the stats from the carnifex screamer killer brood and added one strength because of the amount of plasma being produced by the creature as it is much bigger than even three carnifex.

And by the way, how do "mass points" work.

Just for people that can't be bothered with the link, one of its weapons, the Vengance cannon, has the following stats.

306" range, Strength D, AP 2, Heavy 4, 7" Blast, Destroyer,

Hows that for overpowered. It takes six from these:
- Laser blaster
- Plasma destructor
- Inferno gun
- Vulcan mega-bolter
- Gatling blaster
- Melta cannon
- Quake cannon
- Volcano cannon
- Apocalypse missile launcher
- Vortex support missile

And then two from these:
- Plasma Annihilator
- Hellstorm Cannon
- Vengeance Cannon
- Doomstrike Missile Launcher

oh yeah and it also has 8 void sheilds and 12 structure points. It can also hold 52 units in each foot. It has three fire points in each foot. it is also so huge that if it attacks another titan they are no longer classed as titans to its attacks because it is so freaking huge. Oh goody, now its time for special rules.

SPECIAL RULES:
Reactor Meltdown: If the Emperor Titan suffers an Apocalyptic Explosion
result on the Catastrophic Damage chart, its reactor goes nuclear! This is
the same as an Apocalyptic explosion, except that the range is 8D6", and
models within range suffer a Destroyer hit.

Towering Monstrosity: Because of its immense size, it is difficult for the
Emperor Titan to engage targets that are too close. Weapons mounted on
the carapace of the Emperor Titan have a minimum range of 36".

Titanic Tread: When the Emperor Titan moves, the ground is rocked by
violent shockwaves. All units, except super-heavy vehicles and gargantuan
creatures, that move within 12" of the Emperor Titan’s feet count as
moving through difficult terrain.

So hows that for overpowered. And that was the official games workshop data sheet.

Make that 4750 points... and 5 synaptic shields.. sorry I was WAY off.. you could also make a special rule for some transport capacity or spawning something to make it be more equalized. I put the points for the ORIGINAL one.. sorry

Ironmonkey, you said you want something equivalent to an emperor titan (which I don't consider balanced in the first place, should cost much more), but you do realise that your bio-titan would be much better?

Tyranids are supposed to be subpar in ranged fighting to compensate for their superiority in melee.

You gave your bio-titan WS 5 and BS 5, while the Emperor has WS 2 and BS 4.

Right there you already need to remove 2-3 points in your BS stat.

Your bio-titan has melee weapons. That's good, but the cost has to reflect that when you compare to other titans who have none.

You gave your bio-titan a main weapon that is more or less 1.5 times the volume of fire of the Emperor's most dangerous weapon (assault 6 vs heavy 4), while giving it even more power (AP 1 vs AP 2). Coupled with BS 5, how comes the Tyranid is suddenly the best at shooting?
Sure, it doesn't have insane range. But 48' is already plenty enough.

I think you should just take the Hierophant stats and rules and improve on them a bit rather than waste time creating something that can't die...

6 S D ordnance? are you serious? The hierophant gets 20 S 10 that all have to hit manually if I'm not mistaken. And should just ditch the extra rules, AP 1 is fine for extra damage to vehicles. The other rule about extra damage would just be a pain. If you don't have -bs for the scatter make it BS 1 or something so the stat line doens't look so OP too, it's also so big (and therefore slow) it should be WS 1 I 1 but get the titan ground stomp thing

Also only a little detail but the gun should be heavy, it has relentless being gargantuan but still...the S 10 Lance small blasts mentioned by a previous poster is much better you could then have a single large blast instead. Tyranid guns suck this should be no different

I think a S 8 AP 2 Hellstorm is just more overkill, maybe S 6 AP 2 as it's spreading over such a large area. I agree it's bigger so would spew more plasma but it's also projectile vomiting it so would have to spread said amount over a huge area.

From the pickture it has nothing to shoot the spore mines with expecially 108", the design needs to be changed or this just dropped, I see you're trying to rival the apoc missile barrage but eh

It's meant to have the most corrosive substance known to man...it shouldn't be completely immune to that itself, it may be able to contain it but the outside of it's body wouldn't be able to handle it, so I don't get why it would have FNP it should have a 6+ maybe a 5+ invulnerable, I think having regeneration from the army book INSTEAD of FNP and a much lower invuln is fine.

Mass points were removed due to not working, basicly you had to do like 3 or 4 wounds IN ONE PHASE to remove a mass point.

Synaptic shields make no sense to me, surely this is where the invulnerable save comes from, you're basicly just giving it more wounds and regenerating them

12" for gargantuan horror would be better due to your HUGE base size and again 18" maybe 24" for the SitW would be fine again due to HUGE base size. Ditch the whole shooting your shadow in the warp thing, it's dumb if you want to insta kill GK armies make a gargantuan zoanthrope or something not add it onto this.

the Hive Fleet wouldn't make a one size fits all bio-titan like this the other bio-titan was just to pump out a lot of shots (it's the nids only real way of getting rid of aircraft too) it just feels too anti marine with a random spore launcher to wipe any horde out in one shot


l Ws l Bs l S l T l W l I l A l Ld l Sv l
l 1 l 1 l 10 l 9 l 12 l 1 l 2 l 10 l 3+ l
IF the guns aren't changed

l Ws l Bs l S l T l W l I l A l Ld l Sv l
l 3 l 1 l 10 l 9 l 12 l 1 l 4 l 10 l 3+ l
If the guns are changed

this still needs a lot of tweaking but only marginally more powerful than the Hierophant, T 9 is enough and isn't the Hierophant T 9 too? 3+ armour due to the corrosive juice

Heirophant is T 10 and has 2+ armour save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And have you seen the carnifex screamer killer brood. I think it should be S7 AP 2 just like that. And the spore mines were ment to come out of the spore chimnies on its back. You know the thing that scary nid fumes come out. but i agree that should probably be scrapped aswell. I agree also that i should get rid of the special rules for the Biggest guns and make it small blast and make it S10 AP 1. BS 4 me thinks and then make it only able to fire one of its weapons a turn and 1 psychic power a turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And Consiodering the Emperor titan still get S 10 close combat attacks and will attack first since it make the enemies assault into terrain with its titanic march and it gets 6 attacks...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And vengance cannon gets four shot with a 7 inch blast. I am suggesting 6 shots on small blasts or 1 shot with apoc blast which is only 6 inch if I remeber correctly (although I might be talking rubbish).

akaean wrote:a yup, you won't have very many friends if you try to field this in a game.

For reference, the humble Hierophant is considered one of the most powerful super heavies in the game if it has a 3++ invulnerable save from warp field as opposed to the 6++ originally intended.

What you are proposing has a 50% increase in survivability, better guns, and FnP.

I'd be hesitant to create something more powerful than the Hierophant if you actually enjoy having friends...

Ummm...no. The rules referenced in Apoc is the warpfield psychic power which was 2+/6++. The new Warpfield is not a psychic power and only applies to Zoes (and Doom per FAQ). While it is very survivable (as long as you don't face 2 warhounds - which as long as your opponent has the models...you will); it is NOT the most overpowered warmachine/creature in APOC...nor at 1250 is it humble. The most broken units in APOC are fielded by the Imperium in the form of the Warhound Titan and the Warlord Titan which can field multiple Strength D Pie Plates. The truely HUMBLE warhound costs only 750 points and can lay out 4 Stength D pieplates which auto wound, ignore cover and armour saves, and cause ID.

From the pickture it has nothing to shoot the spore mines with expecially 108", the design needs to be changed or this just dropped, I see you're trying to rival the apoc missile barrage but eh

1. I have no idea what the apoc missle barage is
2. I would take it down to strength 4 to match the spore mines from the biovore that i was trying to add in
3. it would fire them out of the chimnies on its back like I said in the description
4. I don't understand what is wrong with it as the thing i am trying to do is bring together different elements of the tyranids into one scary beast
And for the person who suggested i take his initiative down to 1 no because all bio titans are agile. Why would it be agile but slow?

Aglie is one of its Special Rules. and what does a 3++ save mean?

A 3++ means that it has a 3+ invulnerable save

1R0NM0NK3Y wrote:

From the pickture it has nothing to shoot the spore mines with expecially 108", the design needs to be changed or this just dropped, I see you're trying to rival the apoc missile barrage but eh

1. I have no idea what the apoc missle barage is
2. I would take it down to strength 4 to match the spore mines from the biovore that i was trying to add in
3. it would fire them out of the chimnies on its back like I said in the description
4. I don't understand what is wrong with it as the thing i am trying to do is bring together different elements of the tyranids into one scary beast
And for the person who suggested i take his initiative down to 1 no because all bio titans are agile. Why would it be agile but slow?

1. Call me a traditionalist, but I thought it was standard practice to read the rules of a game before you try to come up with rules for it.
4. The Titans can be I1, all Agile represents is that they are focusing more on moving further than normal in expense of shooting for that turn. Initiative values have no part of it, otherwise Warhounds would definitely not be Agile.