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Hi chaps. Just started 40k with GK and am messing around with the codex. Have been playing WHFB up to now.

I'm loving the look of henchmen, primarily from a tactical point of view in getting body count up and in particular increasing range beyond 24". Perhaps you would comment on the following units?

1) 12 Arco-Flagellants against GEQ (48 S5 attacks at WS5, FNP)

2) 12 Death Cult Assassins (or 10 + 2 Crusaders for durability) against MEQ. (36 S4 armour-ignoring attacks at WS5)

3) I thought of a "machine gun Culexus" build: 3 units of 5 Psykers giving a likely single Large Blast direct hit (& 2 scatters) within 36" S8 (instant death to marines) AP1 (+1 vehicle dmg); Culexus Assassin shooting 12" S5 AP1 17 shots (killing 12 marines/terminators per turn I think, he'll need cover I suppose). (a few less dead termies due to invul of course)

4) With Corteaz, you could field 6 units of 12 Jokaero giving 72 lascannon shots per turn (counts as troops replaces the no-slot rule imho but we shall wait for FAQ). But let's just look at one unit: 12 jokaero is roughly the same cost as 3 psyfleman dreads, which land more shots than the henchmen but have less S and MEQs get armour saves. Vulnerable to templates, but could it be an alternative to the psyfleman dread in providing GK with shooting over 24"? Can also be compared with 5-man 4-psycannon Purgation squad but enemy MEQ would still get To Wound saves and armour saves, unlike a lascannon hit. Not sure about the mathhammer here. A unit with Corteaz could include 3 plasma cannon servitors but I'm not too impressed with scatter weapons.

Are these fail? Do they need particular support to be effective? Are there significantly better options to fulfil the given roles?

I think you're missing the real strength of the Henchmen units (and other similar style units). Units like this are capable of being strong at everything.

Sethorly wrote: 1) 12 Arco-Flagellants against GEQ (48 S5 attacks at WS5, FNP)

2) 12 Death Cult Assassins (or 10 + 2 Crusaders for durability) against MEQ. (36 S4 armour-ignoring attacks at WS5)

You're part right, since you mentioned Crusaders. But, you could combine these two points to make a unit that dishes out a lot of attacks (for swarms or blobs) and a lot of high quality attacks, while still having the survivability of the Crusaders. Also, you could throw in 3 Warriors w/ Meltaguns so that this unit can actually make sure they have a target if necessary.

DCA x4
Arco x3
Crusader x2
Warrior x3

For even more power, you can include an IC (non-named Inquisitor, Techmarine, GKGM) with Rad grenades. You'll decimate anything.

3) I thought of a "machine gun Culexus" build: 3 units of 5 Psykers giving a likely single Large Blast direct hit (& 2 scatters) within 36" S8 (instant death to marines) AP1 (+1 vehicle dmg); Culexus Assassin shooting 12" S5 AP1 17 shots (killing 12 marines/terminators per turn I think, he'll need cover I suppose). (a few less dead termies due to invul of course)

I did this once with IG and Daemonhunters. It's fun, but it isn't that easy to pull off considering he's a lone model that can be ID'd. You could get an extra Chimera from another Henchmen unit to ride around in, but it still might not last too long.

4) With Corteaz, you could field 6 units of 12 Jokaero giving 72 lascannon shots per turn (counts as troops replaces the no-slot rule imho but we shall wait for FAQ). But let's just look at one unit: 12 jokaero is roughly the same cost as 3 psyfleman dreads, which land more shots than the henchmen but have less S and MEQs get armour saves. Vulnerable to templates, but could it be an alternative to the psyfleman dread in providing GK with shooting over 24"? Can also be compared with 5-man 4-psycannon Purgation squad but enemy MEQ would still get To Wound saves and armour saves, unlike a lascannon hit. Not sure about the mathhammer here. A unit with Corteaz could include 3 plasma cannon servitors but I'm not too impressed with scatter weapons.

No thank you. While you're comparing the Jokaero to 3 Dreads, you're also forgetting that those 3 Dreads have 3 vehicle targets, not 1. 12 Lascannons in one unit is overkill and not at all cost effective. Your 400+ point unit can absolutely devastate a Rhino... so can most units.

It is much better to put two Jokaeros in a unit with a mixture of shooting (maybe servitors, definately Warriors). This takes advantage of their special roll, as well.

Also, it should be noted that a single Psycannon has about the same chance to penetra as a single TL LC.

Hey, I have an entire article about henchmen in my signature.


Points I would like to make.

1) Henchmen can be built into a unit that can do everything, or into multiple smaller units that do one thing really well.

2) Any non-suicide close combat unit will need to include some crusaders, only having a 5++ or FNP save is not enough. Your unit will die like flies to any shooting.

3) A unit of Psykers probably only counts as 1 Psyker (sorry, it is in the rules for their shooting power)

4) Jokaero Spam has been discussed before, and it is only good if you are going first and your opponent is stupid enough to deploy on the the table.

It is ruined by Dawn of War, going second, the enemy going into reserves, or any army that can have a first turn assault.

I really don't know too much about the GK or the henchmen, but this is just from experince becareful when you make a unit that is good at everything because you might fall into the "Jack of all trades, Master of none" senerio.

Tactical Nuclear Panda wrote:I really don't know too much about the GK or the henchmen, but this is just from experince becareful when you make a unit that is good at everything because you might fall into the "Jack of all trades, Master of none" senerio.

These guys aren't quite "Master of none" though.

12 of any one type will certainly be powerful and do what they do better than anything, but they will be a little too good:

12 DCA assaulting Marines will decimate them on your turn, leaving those 5++ available to be shot at.
12 Arcos will do the same thing to large squads, but most importantly only have FNP with no save.
12 Jokaeros is just a ridiculous proposition. Why would you need more than 4 Lascannons anyway? If you insist on taking more than 2 monkeys, then just take 4 or so and fill it up with cheap Warriors after that. Monkeys are fragile, especially for their point cost.

Four to six DCA is still a "master" unit at taking out MEqs. Two to four Arcos will still give you a whole lot of attacks for non-PA units (and still pile on a few wounds for PA), and two or three Warriors with Meltaguns is just an efficient (and much needed) addition to a unit that otherwise won't have anything to move and take out tanks.

You could make 6 different units specializing in something, but then you need each one in the right place, and hope your opponent doesn't understand target priority.

Thanks for your comments guys, given me meat to chew on.

I understand the benefit of not killing everything in the first assault, to avoid the enemy shooting phase. And I understand throwing crusaders into the mix. When I get a codex/army book I like to make extreme lists so I get a full appreciation of what can be done (all CC, all shooting, priority to movement, max magic, etc). I was not seriously suggesting fielding 72 monkeys hehehe.

somerandomdude wrote:
Why would you need more than 4 Lascannons anyway?

I have no idea, I guess I need to play more games. Wouldn't a forest of lascannons be great against elite marine units eg. sang guard or terminators?

There is something deeply satisfying from a tactical viewpoint to having recourse to 1-hit-no-saves-you're-dead firepower that can engage priority targets even if they're at long range. As a big tactical game player I know range can be everything (for instance, enabling focus fire). A couple of units of 4 jokaeros (with warriors in cover perhaps) could just sit there zapping heavy support and incoming monsters and dreads and elite infantry whilst strike teams with warp quake and psycannons idle nearby in cover laughing, ready to engage anything that gets too close. I dunno, I need more experience.

How would you field the arco-flagellants or death cult assassins then? Always out of a Chimera?

Sethorly wrote:

somerandomdude wrote:
Why would you need more than 4 Lascannons anyway?

I have no idea, I guess I need to play more games. Wouldn't a forest of lascannons be great against elite marine units eg. sang guard or terminators?

While they do kill terminators and sanguinary guard, there's better options than shooting single-shot anti-tank weapons at them. For the price of one Jokaero you can get loads of plasma goodies, two DCAs and have some spare points etc. Simply put: Lascannons aren't the most optimal choice if you're trying to kill 2+ save things.

I think the biggest use for henchmen that I will get is using crusader walls to bubblewrap/screen things.

i am thinking that 6 DCA and 5 crusaders plus a inquisitor is the right level. add this unit to a SR and you have a very nice package.

i admit that its less survivable than a landraider but i also think that the benefits of the SR outweigh the negatives.

As nice as chimeras can be, for a close combat unit I would seriously consider the rhino instead. You can't shoot as many guns out of the top (how many fire points does a rhino have? 1?), but being able to ignore shaken/stun results (and occasionally repair immobilized ones, GK rhinos still have that, right?) and stay on the move can be crucial.

My personal hope/desire is that these inquisitors and henchmen will also be available in the Sisters of Battle codex, they could use the close combat support more than a codex full of purifiers and paladins.

Remember that a psyker has a STR3 AP6 blast - and that each additional psyker after the first adds +1 STR, -1AP.

A unit of 5 Psykers would be STR7 AP2. 6 Psykers gets you to STR8 AP1.

Then you get Perils of the Warp and remove the whole unit.

The only thing that henchmen dont excel at is living. T3, even with 3++ saves on some of them will not protect them as much as one would wish...

Thanks chaps, really interesting stuff.

zeekill wrote:The only thing that henchmen dont excel at is living. T3, even with 3++ saves on some of them will not protect them as much as one would wish...

so the trick here then is to keep them hidden in a transport. like i mentioned earlier, i think that the stormraven fits the bill well. put it into reserves so it comes in a little later for when its needed and then either come on and assault or turbo and set up for an assault the next turn.

as for a shooty henchmen unit i think 2 monkeys and 8 acolytes with storm bolters is nice to sit on objectives. i will admit that this unit is not optimal but for a fun game and even semi-competitive it is relatively cheap and a bit of fun.

zeekill wrote:The only thing that henchmen dont excel at is living. T3, even with 3++ saves on some of them will not protect them as much as one would wish...

Tell that to Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Imperial Guard - who have codices fill of T3 with 2++ all the way up to 6+.

TheMicah25 wrote:
so the trick here then is to keep them hidden in a transport. like i mentioned earlier, i think that the stormraven fits the bill well. put it into reserves so it comes in a little later for when its needed and then either come on and assault or turbo and set up for an assault the next turn.

I do keep them in transports - rhinoes for assulty units (side hatches) RBs for small squads and Chimeras for big shooty squads. But every 40k player should know that transports dont last long, and as soon as they're gone the squads inside get shot to holy ****

On a side note (don't want to overpower the OP), Stormravens are terrible IMO. 200+ points for an AV12 vehicle is pretty bad, and even though it has the potential to work well, a good player will always just shoot it down on first turn (or whatever turn it comes in on). Being immune to melta 2D6 would only help enough if it was AV13 or 14.

TheMicah25 wrote:
as for a shooty henchmen unit i think 2 monkeys and 8 acolytes with storm bolters is nice to sit on objectives. i will admit that this unit is not optimal but for a fun game and even semi-competitive it is relatively cheap and a bit of fun.

I agree. Not a very competitive choice but not bad for friendly games

Dashofpepper wrote:
Tell that to Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Imperial Guard - who have codices fill of T3 with 2++ all the way up to 6+.

I play DE now, and I used to play IG.

IG can spare all the troops they want as when you kill one chimera and the guys inside there are at least 2-3, usually 4-5 more that you still need to deal with.

DE, while somewhat fragile, can spam boats and gunships like it's their job (IT IS!) and shake/stun if not destroy your vehicles. Not to mention splinter cannons wrecking all your light/medium infantry within 36". If you want to take your time to kill foot troops, you are ignoring boats, and if you are killing boats, you cant kill nearly enough at once!!

Henchmen are not cheap and still very fragile (5++ on DCA won't save them in the slightest, yet they cost almost as much as marines) and have no fleet nor open topped boats to get into assault, nor frag grenades for when they do get there. Shooting wise they may be able to stock on 3 cheap meltas but at T3, 5+ save, and BS3 they are not worth their own killpoint....

Sorry to stop the party but Psyker Henchmen dont have the Psyker special rule meaning the Culexus doesn't get all thoose shots.

T3, even with 3++ saves on some of them will not protect them as much as one would wish..

What?

40/45/63 point TH/SS terminator vs. Dark lance/ BS4 lascannon/railgun/plasma anything: Gets hit on a 3+, Gets wounded on a 2+, saves on a 3++.
15 point crusader vs. the above: Hit on a 3+, wounded on a 2+, saves on a 3++.

For the things that I am putting the crusaders there to stop, they will work every bit as good as their more expensive marine counterpart. They will also work wonderfully as a buffer for a DCA/Arco unit, as already mentioned. I may actually have to run a henchmen army with the ideas in this thread.

Henchmen are not cheap and still very fragile (5++ on DCA won't save them in the slightest, yet they cost almost as much as marines) and have no fleet nor open topped boats to get into assault, nor frag grenades for when they do get there. Shooting wise they may be able to stock on 3 cheap meltas but at T3, 5+ save, and BS3 they are not worth their own killpoint....

Alright, since you are comparing the cost to marines, lets have at it:

6 crusaders, 3 warriors with meltaguns in a chimera, 3 DCA in a chimera: 232 points.
10 Tactical marines w/ powerfist, meltagun and ML in a rhino: 235 points.

In CC? 6 WS5 S4 I6 power attacks, followed by 6 more at GEQ statline. Versus 10 regular S4 attacks (This is assuming that neither side charges.)
Vs. AV? 3 BS3 melta guns> 1 BS4 meltagun.
The henchmen will be really glad they didn't trade their stormshields for power armor when the crisis suits come down. Or the battle cannons smacks them in open terrain. Or they start getting hit with power weapons in CC.

Heck, throw on an extra 15 points, drop a DCA or crusader and add in a banisher with eviscerator, and you have a better-than-S4-powerfist for anti-walker duty.

Eviserators are the fools Anti tank choice. Take two Acolytes with Meltabombs.

im not so sure about that. the banisher also helps against daemons plus it isnt hitting on 6's. what whould you prefer 2 dice hitting on 6's or 1 on 4's?

If we look away from the tactics for a second. I would simply pack up and go away, because i would refuse to play agianst an army of monkies...

i dont think people will be running an army of monkeys. i think that there will be a couple of them in the majority of lists and this (in my opinion) is fine as this is well covered in the fluff (not only from this codex 2011, but in previous carnations of the grey knights).

its strange that people arnt happy with them to the point of behaving as if they have no part in the 40k world when (as far as im aware) they were in this world before a number of 40k races were even conceived.

i was also thinking 2 monkies, 3 plasma guns and 5 acolytes with storm bolters would also be a good shooting combo.... but they would be very tender for the points they would be worth.

SOFDC wrote:
What?

40/45/63 point TH/SS terminator vs. Dark lance/ BS4 lascannon/railgun/plasma anything: Gets hit on a 3+, Gets wounded on a 2+, saves on a 3++.
15 point crusader vs. the above: Hit on a 3+, wounded on a 2+, saves on a 3++.

15 point DCA vs. Bolter fire/Shuriken catapult/etc: Gets hit on a 3+, gets wounded on a 3+, crusaders saves on a 3++, but due to allocation every DCA/Acolyte/Arco/etc will most likely also take at least 1 wound, either dying or getting at best a FNP save.

SOFDC wrote:

Henchmen are not cheap and still very fragile (5++ on DCA won't save them in the slightest, yet they cost almost as much as marines) and have no fleet nor open topped boats to get into assault, nor frag grenades for when they do get there. Shooting wise they may be able to stock on 3 cheap meltas but at T3, 5+ save, and BS3 they are not worth their own killpoint....

Alright, since you are comparing the cost to marines, lets have at it:

6 crusaders, 3 warriors with meltaguns in a chimera, 3 DCA in a chimera: 232 points.
10 Tactical marines w/ powerfist, meltagun and ML in a rhino: 235 points.

In CC? 6 WS5 S4 I6 power attacks, followed by 6 more at GEQ statline. Versus 10 regular S4 attacks (This is assuming that neither side charges.)
Vs. AV? 3 BS3 melta guns> 1 BS4 meltagun.
The henchmen will be really glad they didn't trade their stormshields for power armor when the crisis suits come down. Or the battle cannons smacks them in open terrain. Or they start getting hit with power weapons in CC.

Heck, throw on an extra 15 points, drop a DCA or crusader and add in a banisher with eviscerator, and you have a better-than-S4-powerfist for anti-walker duty.

I actually meant Grey Hunters, sorry for the confusion. Regular marines suck pretty hard.

GH--------------vs--------------Henchies
Bolters------------------------------------No Mass Shooting
Bolt Pistols-------------------------------No pistols/assult weapons
2x BS4 meltas----------------------------3x BS3 Meltas
A3 each----------------------------------Bulk of unit is A1 at S3
T4 3+ Save-----------------------------T3 3++ Save on most, 5++ elsewhere
Wolf Standard for dirt cheap------Nothing Similar
A3 PF-------------------------------------No high str unless you waste points on banisher with A1
CounterAttack-------------------------Nothing Similar

Other than massing power weapon attacks, Henchmen have nothing over marines.

InquisitorVaron wrote:Psyker Henchmen dont have the Psyker special rule meaning the Culexus doesn't get all thoose shots.

Not much point to the Culexus then huh? Either that or it's an incredibly niche scalpel.

I'm not sold on the idea of mixed henchman squads (eg. mixed CC & melta & monkeys etc), I think I'd prefer to more-or-less specialise and rely on skill to fully utilise them.

InquisitorVaron wrote:Sorry to stop the party but Psyker Henchmen dont have the Psyker special rule meaning the Culexus doesn't get all thoose shots.

It would also mean they can't use their psychic power, which they're clearly supposed to.

We need a FAQ.
"For every psyker...." does this mean Psyker as in the henchmen or psyker as in psyker special rule.

I've met on the battlefield a pretty good Chimera Set-up

5 Jokaero
5 Henchmen armed with Storm Bolters
1 Inquisitor

Either moving or stationary, the Chimera is threatening stuff all around it.

WIth Storm Bolters or Meltas all over the place.

I think thats good ish. Yes you always get a 5+ Inv save. Which is great but they're just too easy too kill and at 175P for thoose jokaeros its not cheap.

Other than massing power weapon attacks, Henchmen have nothing over marines.

I think that statement should be amended to "Nothing over Grey Hunters"...a statement which would apply to most troop choices in 40k, I would wager. But, frankly, I think that ++ save spam and power weapons is a pretty compelling reason to take henchmen over marines.

I will agree that in shooting things, the GH -can- be better (Course, if you want a shooty squad, why not a bunch of warriors with hellguns/storm bolters? I'd take it over boltguns in a heartbeat...)...A 6 Crusader/3 DCAs/3 Meltagun cannot be equipped with bolters and thus miss out there, and a pair of BS4 meltaguns is better than 3 BS3 meltas, generally. Granted, the anti infantry shooting thing is one of the reasons you take the chimera for a squad like this, and the three meltas popping off at a MEQ/TEQ squad will generally tenderize nicely, but in shootyness they don't have rapid firing bolters. Point here.

.....But in CC, I think it's going to be pretty slanted in the 6/3/3 henchmen`s favor. The DCA protected by stormshields is just going to start plinking guys off the board pretty hard every turn. Yea, only 3 of them, but 3 attacks each when they AREN'T charging, and with marine strength, WS5 and I6. Those three models there are the offensive CC ability of almost a full halberd strike squad.