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I searched the BRB and came to one conclusion.

Deathleaper's "Its after me" states: "Nominate a single enemy character at the beginning of the game... Roll **. whilst deathleaper is still alive, that models leadership is reduced by the result rolled"


The BRB only makes reference to Upgrade characters and Independent Characters.

Are unique single model units, like Mephistion, unaffected by this power?

By RaW it seems that he is unaffected.

I can gather its another bad worded rule in the brb.

what do you guys think?

RAW you're wrong - Unique models are specifically noted as being Special Characters. Mephiston is Unique, and is therefore a Special Character

Not saying that I would play it that way, but P.49 in the BRB, under special characters, Unique section states: "Special characters can be either Independent Characters, or Upgrade characters,..."

Mephiston is Unique, but neither a IC or an upgrade special character so RaW he is not.

Looks like another rules hole, but that is no surprise.

CAN be either, not MUST be either. It is tellin you that being Special does not prohibit you from being also Upgrade or Independent.

He is simply a Special Character, nothing else.

I just do not see any rules to actually back that up NoS.


Mind you I would never play it that way. I just do not see solid rules denoting Mephiston as a "Character"

Since all the reference is Upgrade or independent characters.

The Grey Knights codex clarifies it a bit, at least for the units in there. If you look at the Unit Type, it often will list: Infantry (character) as the type. This applies even to models that are not ICs or upgrade characters such as Crowe. I noticed this as I was building a Battlescribe catalogue for them. Hopefully they will continue this trend in future dexes.

DR - except you ARE ignoring the rules.

Unique models ARE special characters, and CAN be Upgrade or ICs

There is no MUST BE upgrade or IC in that sentence. You are changing clear rules (Unique models ARE special characters, and CAN BE UC or IC) and implying that "can" == "must"

You CAN BE a UC or IC, you dont HAVE to be. You ARE a special character, regardless.

nosferatu1001 wrote:DR - except you ARE ignoring the rules.

Unique models ARE special characters, and CAN be Upgrade or ICs

There is no MUST BE upgrade or IC in that sentence. You are changing clear rules (Unique models ARE special characters, and CAN BE UC or IC) and implying that "can" == "must"

You CAN BE a UC or IC, you dont HAVE to be. You ARE a special character, regardless.

Where does it define what is a special character then?

The underlined is not what the unique section says.

They say they Can be one or the other, these rules allow them to be one type OR the other.

Those are the options for Special characters, they can be either Upgrade characters, OR they are Independent characters.

Either Or, means they fall into one of those two categories.

The unique rules state: "Special characters can be either independent or upgrade characters but each one of them is unique, so the player..."

Each one of the independent or upgrade characters that are unique are special characters. That is all this section allows, it has no inclusion of non-Independent or non-upgrade characters that can be counted as "Special characters"

(I realize this is just a symatic issue, where the unit type for Mepheston is listed as Infantry(Unique) no where does it say that he is a Special character even though we know he is by the fluff, and I would def not play it where he was not a special chr. Just trying to find the flaws in the writing of the rules is all)

Nos has it nailed exactly right. The wording of the sentence is merely putting a limit on special characters so that they can not be both IC and upgrade. There is no requirement that they must be either in that sentence, just that they cant be both IC and upgrade. And special characters can be either...or neither.


Possibly the author wanted to make sure that we know that upgrade characters cannot ever be ICs, say if the rest of their squad is removed. Or possibly the author was just making a further butchery of the 40k rules *sigh*



Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:Or possibly the author was just making a further butchery of the 40k rules *sigh*Sliggoth

That is exactly what I was pointing out!

RaW non-Upgrade, non-IC models are not characters as per the rules (Though no one would play it that way I would not think)

DR - in the section above, where it defines "special characters" possibly?

You are STILL inserting "must be" into the sentence. You are stating they MUST BE IC or UC, and the rules DO NOT state they

It states they CAN be IC or UC, but either way they ARE SC. And if they are not IC or UC? They are STILL SC

The unique ruleset in the book is actually a subheading of the special characters section.

Even the first line in the unique section, "special characters can be...." tells you right away you are dealing with characters when you read the word unique.

Plus, if you look higher up under the special characters section, it says "...these unique individuals, who stand out from normal characters because they have a special name and not just a title, are called special characters"

So, pretty much anything that has a unique name is a character.

Omerak - incorrect. "Characters" include upgrade characters; the Justicar is an upgrade character.

ya i tried to edit that out but wasnt quick enough. the rest of the post is legit

Fluff does not = rules.

there are no rules saying that non-independant non-upgrade unique characters ARE special characters.

"these unique individuals, who stand out from normal characters because they have a personal name and not just a title, are called 'special characters'. "

That's not fluff, that is a clear explanation of what a special character is

Would you stop trying to get around a single models rules?

RAW I can sit there and tell you that you cannot shoot me unless your models have "Eyes". If you play exactly by raw, it's like shooting the hobby in the foot, then the leg, then torso, then the head.

Nos has it completely correct regarding what is and character for the deathleapers rule.

DeathReaper wrote:Fluff does not = rules.

there are no rules saying that non-independant non-upgrade unique characters ARE special characters.

Incorrect. See omeraks post

ALL unique characters are SPecial Characters. SOME are also upgrade or IC.

As per P.47 there are only 2 types of characters, Independent and Upgrade.

We have not rules allowing characters to be anything other than those two character types.

As I have said, its just a poorly written rule.

actually, it doesn't say there are ONLY two types.

It says that armies NORMALLY include 2 types.

That was left open intentionally so they could add more at a later date if they wanted.

And until you can disprove this clearly written rule, I will continue to repost it because I don't know if you're accidently missing it or not. BRB page49

"these unique individuals, who stand out from normal characters because they have a personal name and not just a title, are called 'special characters'. "

That's not fluff, that is a clear explanation of what a special character is

I just want to know where the rules define Special characters as a Character.

"NORMALLY include 2 types" so, until there are rules telling us what else are included, only those two types can be included.

Special characters are not 'Characters' as far as deathleapers rule is concerned, here is why I say that:

Things that only affect Infantry do not affect Jump Infantry, Such as being able to embark on a transport.

Special Characters are different from Characters as far as deathleaper is concerned, since deathleaper
only mentions he affects characters and not Special characters.

Since they "stand out from normal characters" they are not characters and have their own classification.

So you're claiming a Special Character is not a Character even though unique, special, and IC are all listed in the Characters section of the rulebook.

...

I would like to shake your hand. You sir, have the most amazing set of balls I have ever seen. Seriously, take a picture of them, and send it to The Guiness Book of World Records because you have the rest of the male world beat

DR - it states they stand out from normal characters

So they are stand out non-normal characters. Or, in other words, Special Characters.

Its not tricky.

By that same Logic, Jump Infantry are Infantry.

They are Special Characters, not Characters.

Deathleaper cares about characters, and makes no mention of Special Characters.

JOTWW affects Infantry, does it affect Jump infantry as well?

by that logic it would.

Not, not the same at all.

Character is the type. Upgrade, Special and Independent are the sub-type.

Infantry is the type. Jump Infantry is the type.

Try again. There is a section called Special Characters In this Special Characters are defined as different to normal characters. This means they are still characters, just different. And ALL Deathleapers rule cares about is that they are a character

The rules are clear and umabiguous; you have no rules argument.

Looking at Mephiston's rules, he is not a character.

It does not list him as such, so he is not. (Same like a daemon prince is not a daemon as far as daemonbane is concerned)

Sigh. Reread page 49 again

"these unique individulas, who stand out from normal characters because they have a personal name and not a title, are called "special characters"

Unless you claim Mephiston isnt a personal name?

DeathReaper wrote:By that same Logic, Jump Infantry are Infantry.

They are Special Characters, not Characters.

Deathleaper cares about characters, and makes no mention of Special Characters.

JOTWW affects Infantry, does it affect Jump infantry as well?

by that logic it would.

If you look on page 4 of your brb, you will see that all units are classified into different groups under one heading: UNIT TYPES.

If an ability says "only affects infantry", that is all it affects. If the ability said "affects all UNIT TYPES", then infantry would = jump infantry in that respect.

If the death leapers ability said "only affects <insert whatever character type you want>", then it would only affect that chosen type.

Since it says "chose a character", you have to follow RAW and choose anything listed as a character. IC's, upgraded, special, unique... all are listed as characters

nosferatu1001 wrote:Sigh. Reread page 49 again

"these unique individulas, who stand out from normal characters because they have a personal name and not a title, are called "special characters"

Unless you claim Mephiston isnt a personal name?

If he is a character, despite there being nothing in his rules saying such, then Daemon Princes are daemons as well.

Even if he is a Special character, Deathleaper calls for characters and not Special Characters.

So by your definition, there are NO characters in the game at all, because they are all listed as either IC's, upgraded, unique, or special characters, and not just plain characters.

Absolutely brilliant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm going to give this one last try before I walk away from it. I'll start by addressing your arguments.

1. Your claim that by the rules, infantry = jump infantry.

Incorrect.

Why?

Infantry and Jump infantry are clearly separated in the rulebook; thats why jotww hurts infantry, but not jump infantry BUT it hurts both bikes AND jet bikes

2. Daemon princes = daemons

Incorrect.

Why?

The codex's and faq's already address this issue.

3. Mephiston is not a character because his profile doesn't say he is a special character, he is listed as unique

Incorrect.

Why?

We have already pointed out the special characters rule in the brb that says a personal named unit is a special character. This same section also goes on to list Commisar Yarrick as an example of a special character.

In his profile, Yarrick is listed as unique infantry and even has the ic rule. NOWHERE in his profile is he listed as a special character, and yet, the brb specifically uses him as a special character example, and both books are from this edition. He is a special character because he is a personal named unit, and mephiston follows this same, clearly written rule.

4. Even if he is a special character, death leapers ability doesnt work because it says "select a character" not "select a special character"

Incorrect.

Why?

Special, upgraded, independent, and unique are all subcategories of the character class. Death leapers ability targets characters in general, so it affects all subcategories.

Example?

Look at the Jotww again. Look specifically at the space wolves faq:
"Does jotww affect jet bikes?"
"Yes, because jet bikes are a subcategory of bikes"


I don't think I can explain it any better than that.