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Ok, with the leaked pictures of the new Razorwing Jet fighter, I think I may succumb to building a dark eldar army.

My question is what is the best load out for the razorwing fighter? I think I want to go Anti-tank with them...

Also what other elements would be needed in an army with two of these bad boys, maybe even three??

Thoughts? Oh I am shooting for 1500pts...for now...

Discuss...

Are you looking for a competitive army?

If so, the best loadout is to not take razorwings...

compared to a ravager a razorwing will always be subpar. They cost almost 50% more but have 2/3 the firepower.

They excell at anti infantry.

The question is do you go for:
2 Disinigrators a Splinter Cannon and the 4missiles for insane infantry hyperdeath
(6 str5 AP2 shots + 6 posion 4+ shots+ 4 str 6 large blasts)
or
2 DL and a splinter rifle and the 4 free missiles, cheap and easy.
(2 Str8 AP2 lances + 1TW rapid fire posion +4 str6 large blasts)
turn 2 arrive from reserve, launch 4 large blast templates and then turn 3-6 just use 2 dark lances as a tank hunter.

You can upgrade the missiles but why. 2+ posion large blast that pinns, I guess its nice. even Ld 10 is likely to fail 1 of 4 pinning check, but what can survive 4 large blast templates that wound on 2+? Termites?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dashofpepper wrote:Are you looking for a competitive army?

If so, the best loadout is to not take razorwings...

yeah, perhaps taking 1 would be fun. It depends on your opponent if the 4 anti infantry missiles will ever make up for losing 1 dark lance.

in todays meta of mech, probably not but against some opponents it might.

I tested single basic razorwing with 2 dark lance and 4 free missles with flicker field 155 pts.

Free missles are nice for anti horde but beast packs and venoms do a good enough job of killing hordes that you rather have ravagers for less points that are better at anti tank.

flicker field is worth it to keep your expensive fighter shooting against few high strength las cannon and missle anti tank shots but its not all that dependable if your taking sustained fire from auto cannons and multi lasers on av10.

One Razor wing works decent there often is this squad you really want to kill off with 4 large templates and that can be worth being slightly worse then a ravager for anti tank. I wouldn't run more then one since you still want 2 ravagers for anti tank. Unless of course you play against horde armies all the time.

SO basically, either tool them up for anti-infantry or keep them bare bones for a little of both?

@Dash, I am not a competitive tourney player. I think the tourney scene has been the worst thing for 40k. I really wish 40k would get back to it's roots ala Rogue trader edition or shortly thereafter....where the game was all about having fun, not necessarily building the most optimal point based list.

I don't mind losing, I just don't want to loose all the time. Plus I like how the models look. (I also like the Talos, but I want to wait and see what GW does for the wracks/grotesques.)

If I keep them stock, what would go best with them for 1500pts?

Kabalite warriors? Wyches? Scourges for more AT?

Thoughts?

Thanks

Dash of Pepper wrote some nice primers on some Dark Eldar builds.

HQ wise Haemoculi are good at low points and give feels no pain to otherwise lousy save unit like wyches and warriors also lets you take wracks which are nice scoring unit.

If your just playing for fun pick what troops you like either for the models or purpose. Warriors if you like shooting, wyches if you like assaulting. Wracks if you like undead regen thingies.

For anti tank you want 2 ravagers and that one razorwing and maybe a couple trueborn units with 3 to 4 blasters in Venoms.

I like beast units either run 2 medium or one deathstar.

Don't think that all fits at 1500 though.

I am not disputing Dash of Pepper in any way and I have read his primers on DE and their various builds, I just get upset with the fact that many times armies boil down to a few "key" builds.

I understand that the ravager is the best AT heavy support choice, but I just hate it when it boils done to cost effectiveness.

I am not a fan of beast units due to cost...the game is expensive enough as it is...

I agree with you Chaplain Pallantide. I think that the tournament scene kills a lot of the fun, fluffy builds that a lot of people like to run.

It also makes people like Dash think that it's acceptable to answer the question, "What is a good loadout for a Razorwing" with "don't take a Razorwing". That's smarmy and unhelpful, and it's the kind of thing that drives me away from asking questions on this board instead of other, more helpful ones. I understand putting a disclaimer like, "I don't like Razorwings at all in competitive lists, but [advice]", what Dash put initially was just snarky and useless. I hate those kinds of replies on these boards.

Darkjediben wrote:I agree with you Chaplain Pallantide. I think that the tournament scene kills a lot of the fun, fluffy builds that a lot of people like to run.

It also makes people like Dash think that it's acceptable to answer the question, "What is a good loadout for a Razorwing" with "don't take a Razorwing". That's smarmy and unhelpful, and it's the kind of thing that drives me away from asking questions on this board instead of other, more helpful ones. I understand putting a disclaimer like, "I don't like Razorwings at all in competitive lists, but [advice]", what Dash put initially was just snarky and useless. I hate those kinds of replies on these boards.

Way to harsh in my opinion. Dash was simply making a statement that is echoed by a large number of DE players.

Dash first asked if the army was meant to be competitive. If it is meant to be competitive then he is right, do not take a razorwing. I don't know if they scale better as the point level increases but at 1500 I also do not think they are very good.

If it is not meant to be a competitive army then the OP should simply ignore his advice.

Simple.

I am not knocking Dash at all, I have followed most if not all of his DE threads since the book was released.

What I am knocking is how the tournament scene has changed the face of 40K and in my own humble opinion, not for the best.

To me there are many cool concepts in 40k, which do not get any attention what-so-ever due to the fact that they are considered to be point inefficient.

Such as Razorwing, Void Raven, Paladins, Mordrak, Tau Sniper drones and other such units. They are cool in concept, but ultimately do not get used because of cost to play ratio is not the optimum.

So in short, I am not a tourney player. So yes I know I can ignore Dash's advice, but what I was hoping for in this thread was more along the lines of...

If you take the Razorwing, take Flicker fields for survivability and either take weapons, x,y,z for anti-infantry or weapons a,b,c for some anti-tank. Which ever you go with it would be best to support either a warrior centric build or a wych centered build....That is what I was hoping for.

Sorry for the rant, I am not trying to be a dick or anything I was just hoping to get a discussion going based on some cool leaked photo's of a cool model I would like to use.

Chaplain Pallantide wrote:I am not disputing Dash of Pepper in any way and I have read his primers on DE and their various builds, I just get upset with the fact that many times armies boil down to a few "key" builds.

I understand that the ravager is the best AT heavy support choice, but I just hate it when it boils done to cost effectiveness.

I am not a fan of beast units due to cost...the game is expensive enough as it is...

That's fine - and not everyone is a tournament player. You can't ask for optimal builds, then back off and say, "I don't run optimal lists." Well, then you wouldn't be looking to optimize!

If you're looking for the "optimal" build, it comes down to the fact that Razorwings cannot compare to a Ravager. That's not to say that the Ravager is the *only* Heavy Support for any list because it isn't. But it is the most effective vehicle there for its points.

So perhaps a little miscommunication. =p

In terms of what you're looking for....there *is* no optimal Razorwing configuration that is best fitting for everything. You're upset with how 40k only has certain builds because others are point inefficient....well, if there was a right answer for a Razorwing, it would be guilty of the same.

Instead, think of Razorwings as the last thing to go into your army. Build the rest of your army, and then find where the razorwing fits in. If you need more anti-tank, equip your razorwing appropriately. If you need more anti-infantry, equip appropriately.

Flickerfields are actually sort of wasted on a Razorwing for a few reasons. Either the Razorwing has blown its load of single use ammunition, or it hasn't. If it has....then it is less of a target than other things (like ravagers) and the flickerfield doesn't have much to protect. If it hasn't blown it, then you're either about to or you're moving flat out and have a 4+ cover save, which is better than a 5+ save.

At the end of the day, you're either sitting still waiting to shoot...and the flickerfield isn't going to protect you from the volume of fire coming in your way, or you're flat out waiting to shoot and have a better save, or you've already expended all your missiles, and losing the razorwing isn't particularly lethal now.

Dashofpepper wrote:You can't ask for optimal builds, then back off and say, "I don't run optimal lists." Well, then you wouldn't be looking to optimize!

To be fair he's asking how to optimize a unit, not his entire army. He has his heart set on the unit for whatever reason (perhaps a gorgeous model, which makes me so jealous), and although it's not the best there are certainly better and worse builds for that unit.

While I think the "don't take one" attitude is a little overblown. I think the key is taking two Ravagers so that means you only have one slot to make your army fluffy.

There is a challenge with language here. "optimal" is relative.. optimal against...what?

An army is not a collection of individual units.. it's a cohesive whole. 40K is very much a rock-paper-scissors-bunny game. Uunit A is good vs target Z, but can't do squit against target Y. Unit B is ideal against target Y, but is food for Target Z. So, when you ask for "what is optimal" .. are you trying to be generic vs both, which means you'll also be weaker than you could be vs both, or are you looking to make it very powerful vs something..

A razorwing isn't an optimal unit to take if you're looking for an optimized army. So, ok, that definition is out. With that said.. to optimize the unit, you have to decide what you want to use it against. It's the one that carries the str 9 lances.. (forgot the name offhand) so it's better vs a landraider with blessed hull than your ravagers. (arguably.) So, to make it more generic, load out with the anti-personnell missiles. To make it more anti-armor, load up with the anti-armor missiles.

Like I said.. it doesn't optimize the unit for a good-against-anyone army.. but it makes it the best it can be against what you intend to put it against.

See? While I may disagree with Dash's calculations.. his point is valid. The question is one that has no right answer. I have one build that includes a Razorwing.. so I can take my "captured Serenity" on the tabletop once in a while. That build isn't as effective as some.. but it's fun, and I like building models. I'll build one of the plastic RW kits when i get it. I might just make it a ravager.

Razorwing does not have S9 lances, thats the Voidraven.

Dracos wrote:Razorwing does not have S9 lances, thats the Voidraven.

Yup.. that's what I get for writing from work. Razorwing isn't even on my radar as usable.

..again.. back to the definition of "optimal."

I'd recommend these two bits of advice:

DAaddict wrote:I think the key is taking two Ravagers so that means you only have one slot to make your army fluffy.

Dashofpepper wrote:Instead, think of Razorwings as the last thing to go into your army. Build the rest of your army, and then find where the razorwing fits in. If you need more anti-tank, equip your razorwing appropriately. If you need more anti-infantry, equip appropriately.

It's well accepted that Ravagers are the jewel of the Heavy Support slot, the Razorwing - whilst not necessarily being uncompetitive - simply isn't as good in your average list. I'd recommend taking 2 Ravagers with Dark Lances then putting a Razorwing in the 3rd Heavy Support slot, this would provide target saturation as well as a solid core of Ravagers.
As for its load-out, I'd go with what I've quoted from Dash, arm it according to your needs. Generally I'd recommend having it with the lances then base missiles, but as he said, arm it how you need it.
When it arrives however I'd recommend unleashing all your missiles in one turn in order to ensure they don't get wasted and this will reduce it's priority as a target, hopefully allowing it to attract less of the enemies attention whilst it goes about with its lances.

According to Thor, the Razorwing is just as competitive as the Ravager.

Mostly because of Duality, so it seems.

I would take my razorwing barebones at 145pts, if i had 10 pts to spare (which normally i don't) only then i'll think of Night Shields, Flickerfields or 2 Necrotroxin's.

The razorwing fits the shooty army that have counter-charge melee support. What it means is that your melee units won't likely be assaulting first or second turn because they're suppose to charge something that's trying to charge you.

Most hordes and infrantry that start the game disembarked aren't high priority (generally), those kind of infantry can be swept away by the volume of blasts the Razorwing can load out. The razorwing is taking away a nuisance like a 30ish boyz squad or a Power-Blob.

EDIT:

Considering the above the Razorwing is quite good when it comes to points if you see it from another spectrum: paying 40 more points you'll be dealing with stuff that would need at least two Venoms to deal with. And two venoms costs 130pts.

I'm more interested in getting the Razorwing kit and making it into a Voidraven. A Voidraven with only a flickerfield upgrade is forty more points than a ravager with flickerfield. But I really like the idea of using the void lances. It also comes with a single void mine which can come in handy against a big blob of infantry. I'm going to get three and play a few games with them and see if they are worth fitting into my army on a regular basis.

I can post some more detailed math later but two void lances should be substantially worse than 3 normal dark lances for AV duties. Whether you should swap Ravagers for Razorwings is at least debatable but the Void Raven is just a generally bad unit.