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A quick list I drew up to plan a bit of expansion with my army. Anyone mind giving it a glance and telling me what they think? Any obvious places for improvement?

HQ
Shas'el w/ PR + MP + TA + HW MT
97
2 Bodyguard w/ PR + MP + TA + HW MT
164

Troops
6 Fire Warriors w/ Shas'ui + Bonding Knife
75
18 Kroot + 4 Kroot Hounds
150
18 Kroot + 3 Kroot Hounds
144

Elite
3 XV8 Crisis Suits w/ PR + MP + MT
186
3 XV8 Crisis Suits w/ TL MP + TA
159

Heavy Support
2 XV88 Broadside Suits w/ A.S.S + Team Leader w/ HW Target Lock
175
2 XV88 Broadside Suits w/ A.S.S + Team Leader w/ HW Target Lock
175
2 XV88 Broadside Suits w/ A.S.S + Team Leader w/ HW Target Lock
175
Total: 1500

Are you counting the devilfish twice, or are you actually taking 2 devilfish? In the case of the latter question...i think its a horrible idea to take a devilfish as a troop choice...for that you can add a small squad of fire warriors...but idk it just seems like a waste of points.

ThatTauGuyJoe wrote:Are you counting the devilfish twice, or are you actually taking 2 devilfish? In the case of the latter question...i think its a horrible idea to take a devilfish as a troop choice...for that you can add a small squad of fire warriors...but idk it just seems like a waste of points.

It's another DF as a transport for a FW squad in addition to the mandatory Pathfinder one.
With only two troops in a 1500 point army, I figure that I need them as mobile as possible; objectives won't capture themselves.

Oh my, Im no expert on tau but this list needs few things:

HQ: CIB is waste, really don't bother

Elite: Frifeknifes are good but I tend to run them as bodyguard with targeting array.
Deathrains are cheaper and still effective

Tropps: DON'T ever take photon grenades, along with ethereals they are THE worst thing in tau dex. You already suck in combat and in bad luck you will stay locked in it, so you can't shoot the enemy, And photon grenades only help this.
Smaller FW squads, usually 6-man, are better unless you run fish'o fury.
Maybe kroot? everyone doesn't like them but they are better than FW.

Fast attack: looks fine, but maybe field pathfinders MSU.

Heavy support: usually b-sides are better than railhead (but I really like railhead more) coz they have more guns.
Your railhead needs multi-tracker.
2-man broadside squads with target lock teamleader (and of course A.S.S) are better.

I think that was everything, if you have any questions please ask me.
hope this helps

-unforgiven-

Spread out the XV88's a bit, I must have derped, five railguns that can fire at five targets are a tad more useful than four that can fire at 2.
Same with the Pathfinders.

Also cut the FW's a bit to stay under 1500.

What would you suggest I replace the CIB with?

I would take missile pod.

the unforgiven wrote:I would take missile pod.

Running all Fireknives seems like a cop-out, though.

I think I'll stick with the Ion Blaster. Six MP's should be enough for popping light armor from a distance, and I think I could use the help on larger groups.

Personally, I'd drop the 'vre on the Broadsides and keep them as Team Leaders - cheaper and still have access to wargear.

I'm not a huge fan of CIB, but it's not bad either. Looks like you can squash some MEQs for sure

mega_bassist wrote:Personally, I'd drop the 'vre on the Broadsides and keep them as Team Leaders - cheaper and still have access to wargear.

I'm not a huge fan of CIB, but it's not bad either. Looks like you can squash some MEQs for sure

Thanks; that gives me a total of 20 points to work with.

Which means a lot of things. Like 2 more Fire Warriors. Or strapping missiles to the Railhead.

Meh, more missiles, less problems. I'll go with those.

now it looks like a good list, but there are few things you could consider (this is all about opinion and your list looks fine now)
1.More kroot less FW
2. Deathrains
But still remember this is all about opinion.

-unforgiven-

Nerivant wrote:A quick list I drew up to plan a bit of expansion with my army. Anyone mind giving it a glance and telling me what they think? Any obvious places for improvement?

HQ
Shas'el w/ CIB + PR + TA + HW MT
105

Troops
10 Fire Warriors w/ Shas'ui + Bonding Knife
115
10 Fire Warriors w/ Shas'ui + Bonding Knife
115

Take the minimum - I assume they have rifles?

Elite
3 XV8 Crisis Suits w/ PR + MP + MT
186
3 XV8 Crisis Suits w/ PR + MP + MT
186

Fast Attack
4 Pathfinders
48
Devilfish w/ Disruption Pods
85
4 Pathfinders
48
Devilfish w/ Disruption Pods
85

Heavy Support
2 XV88 Broadside Suits w/ A.S.S + Team Leader w/ HW Target Lock
175
2 XV88 Broadside Suits w/ A.S.S + Team Leader w/ HW Target Lock
175
1 Hammerhead w/ Railgun + MT + Disruption Pods + 2 Seeker Missiles
165


Total: 1498

TBH I'd take an ionhead - your railgun needs are met by 4 broadsides. I assume the FW go in the fishes. I don't know if the 2 seeker missiles are worth it. I'd be more tempted to drop to an ioncannon, drop the missiles and take something else like some kroot to ruin peoples day.

Made a few more changes.

A lot more potential KP's than I originally planned, but I feel that it's a much better list than what I started with.

Anyone else have a thought or comment?

I generally agree with all of Unforgiven's advice. The CIB is kinda worthless. It's overpriced for what it (doesn't) do--namely, trying to kill marines. It's short-range and only works 1/6 of the time, all for an expensive 15 points. For that price, I can get two TL S7 shots. I like that option better.

And running deathrains and fireknives isn't a cop-out; it's called "winning."

I also strongly disagree with Phototoxin: you can never have too many broadsides. With the vehicle-saturated nature of the game at present, you should take as many broadsides as you can.

With the preliminaries out of the way, let's proceed to my review-in-chief.

First, your HQ. I'm going to start off here with a general history behind the tau codex as a baseline on which to build my arguments and my advice.

The current tau codex was written at the very beginning of 4th Edition. In 4th Ed, troops choices weren't important, and good stuff was usually concentrated in the elite, HQ and heavy support slots. The same holds true for the tau codex, and its unsurprising that our best units are in those three FOC slots. Those units are all battlesuits. Crisis suits in the HQ and elite slots, and your broadsides in the heavy support slot, should be the core of your army. As such, you MUST max out the number of suits you can take in those slots AND outfit them in the efficient possible manner.

Your HQ does not do that.

Your weapons choices make sense if you want to play close to your opponent. Unfortunately that's a losing strategy with tau. You're not good at CC, and you're fragile otherwise. By taking short-range weapons that are only useful at short range against infantry, you decrease the unit's value in two ways by forcing the unit to either (a) spend valuable time getting into range, or (b) forcing yourself to deep strike the unit, thus drastically reducing its life-span once it comes into play. You need way more mileage than that out of your HQ suits, and you need it from a distance. Therefore, I recommend running a standard fireknife HQ suit plus bodyguards:

1 Shas'el 251
-Plasma Rifle
-Missile Pod
-Multi-tracker
2 Bodyguard
-Plasma Rifle x2
-Missile Pod x2
-Targeting Array x2
-Hard-Wired Multi-tracker x2

This load out is more flexible (it's effective against infantry and light vehicles) and has a longer range, thus giving it more killing power overall. It CAN go after vehicles, but you want this going after infantry b/c of the number of shots you can put out. Running this unit is my concession to the fact that tau have a tough time against BA + FNP. At higher point levels I run two of them, and at this point level I TRY to fit a unit in, but it sometimes doesn't happen. At 1500 points, you take one unit and be happy.

Next I will discuss your elite choices. Another principle with which you should acquaint yourself, is that tau are actually a BS4 army—we just pay a premium for it. So whenever possible, you should make your stuff BS4. With my HQ units, I run plasma/missile pod because I can also make the unit BS4. Unfortunately, with the elite suits, you can't make the whole unit BS4 AND give it plasma/missile pods. Therefore, you need to audible to another configuration:

3 Crisis Suits 159
-TL Missile Pods x3
-Targeting Array

This configuration is, first and foremost, cheap. You can take three of these units for fewer points than you already have allocated in your list. Also, the unit is very accurate. You should detail this unit to take down light vehicles, MC's and infantry. Remember: S7 insta-kills T3, so it ignores Dark Eldar FNP and the rare IG company command squad that takes a medic. The plasma/missile pod configuration is theoretically a little more “killy” but it's also less accurate. I suspect the plasma/missile pod configuration is actually LESS killy than the TL missile pod configuration.

Onto your troop choices. Another principle: fire warriors suck. There's no two ways about it. They're expensive and they don't do anything. I wouldn't take them if they weren't a 1+ troop choice. Kroot, while still not good, are at least cheaper than fire warriors and get a beefy 2+ cover save in forests when they go to ground. Plus, kroot are better in melee (though again they're not “good” in the strict sense of the word; they're just better than fire warriors). Therefore, I suggest taking as few units of fire warriors as possible. I usually only run a single min-sized unit, and I usually give them pulse carbines, both for the pinning and the ability to move and shoot 18”. Then I advise taking as many kroot squads as possible, with emphasis on maxing out kroot hounds, since they're strictly better than kroot carnivores. If you doubt me, I direct you to look at their stat line.

For kroot, I run 10 carnivores usually coupled with anywhere between 5-8 hounds, and that unit runs between 100-118, which gives you between four-six more bodies than a unit of fire warriors for fewer points. Something important to note, however, is that kroot are not an offensive choice. I know this goes against the grain of my preaching elsewhere on this post, but it's important to have kroot meat shields to protect against outflanking wolf scouts and deep striking daemons and nids. You just have to spread the kroot out 2” apart from each other and distribute them either along your flanking table edge (in the case of outflankers) or throughout your deployment zone where the rest of your army is (in the case of deep strikers). However, don't forget that kroot can infiltrate—use that to your advantage. By infiltrating you can quite easily set up so that you have a protected flank and a protected deployment zone. That gives you protection from outflankers and deep strikers AND gives your suits cover saves against high-strength, low-AP weaponry.

Fast Attack: this is probably the least important FOC slot for tau. Your two viable options are pathfinders and piranha. They fulfill different functions. Pathfinders are force-multipliers (sort of). They make the rest of your army a little better during the shooting phase with their markerlights. While nuking cover saves is incredibly helpful, you pay a premium for it.

Pathfinders are BS3, so only half of their markerlights will usually hit. Plus you have to buy a devilfish, which increases their cost. So a full unit of pathfinders plus a warfish costs 216 points. An MSU of pathfinders plus a stripped-down warfish will only cost you 133 points. You can vary the amount you spend on the unit, but at the end of the day, I just don't think pathfinders justify their cost, especially at this point level.

Were I to run fast attack options at this point level, I would run piranha. Piranha serve to control the movement and shooting of your opponent for one to two turns. Turn one your turbo-boost them in front of your opponents vehicles. If they try to ram them, you will dodge 2/3 of the time. If they shoot you, you have a 4+ cover save. If a piranha lives for more than one turn, (and sometimes they don't) you will probably kill a vehicle, further stymieing your opponent's movement. You also get a 2-man squad of gun drones for free. I advise running piranha as singles kitted out as follows:

1 Piranha 75
-Fusion Blaster
-Targeting Array
-Disruption Pod

At this point level I actually recommend running no fast attack choices. You need the points to max out your suits.

Finally, I'll discuss your heavy support slots. The best heavy support choice tau has is the broadside battlesuit. I think broadsides are almost strictly superior to hammerheads, and that you would be much better served by ditching your hammerhead to run more broadsides. The simple fact is that a single hammerhead is worth more than two broadsides. That's one S10 shot compared to two. Sure the hammerhead also has the pie plate, but it's only S6 and doesn't have any other special abilities that might make it worthwhile to take over the cheaper broadside.

I also advise resisting the urge to take shield drones. Shield drones are purely defensive list choices that don't add anything to your list. They don't even make the unit more survivable in the long run, because you end up taking fewer threatening units to fit in defensive choices. This means your opponent has fewer targets to shoot at, thus letting him concentrate his fire power more easily. To make your suits more survivable, it's a much better idea to keep them in cover either via kroot meat shield or drone meat shield.

The only thing left to decide is what support system you'll give the broadsides. Your two best choices are the targeting array or the advanced stabilization system. The A.S.S. gives the unit Slow and Purposeful, which affords them a degree of maneuverability. I tend to err on the side of the A.S.S. even though I hate being BS3. The upgrades cost the same, so I leave it to your discretion. Just know that I recommend the A.S.S.

As for hammerheads: yes, they're, point for point, the best main battle tank in the game. But they're still not as good as broadsides because you need all the railguns you can get. At this point level, you should expect to run into space wolves players running between 4-6 vehicles; DE will run about the same, as will IG. You'll need all the railgun shots you can get. To that effect, you just can't afford to take hammerheads because (a) they take up a heavy support slot you need for broadsides, and (b) you can take two broadsides for the same price as a single hammerhead. The only thing hammerheads are better at is killing infantry, but you've got that covered with your crisis suits. Plus, if you really need to, you can just march the broadsides forward and pepper infantry units with SMS shots.

BUT, if you absolutely had to run a hammerhead, I would run it kitted out like this: railgun, multi-tracker (shoot like a fast vehicle--an absolute must), disruption pod (ditto), and burst cannons (because they're cheaper and give 2 more shots than the SMS--the shorter range doesn't matter b/c by the time you need it you'll be close enough for the range to be irrelevant). That hammerhead is 165 points and it's the best you can take. However, I still recommend taking more broadsides over hammerheads, at pretty much all point levels.

Taking account of the foregoing, here's what I recommend:

1500/1500

--HQ--

1 Crisis Commander 251
-Plasma Rifle
-Missile Pod
-Multi-tracker
2 Bodyguard
-Plasma Rifle x2
-Missile Pod x2
-Targeting Array x2
-HW Multi-tracker x2

--Elite--

3 Crisis Suit 159
-TL Missile Pod x3
-Targeting Array x3

3 Crisis Suit 159
-TL Missile Pod x3
-Targeting Array x3

3 Crisis Suit 159
-TL Missile Pod x3
-Targeting Array x3

--Troops--

6 Fire Warriors 60

10 Kroot Carnivores 106
6 Kroot Hounds

10 Kroot Carnivores 106
6 Kroot Hounds

--Heavy Support--

3 Broadside Battlesuit 250
-Advanced Stabilization System x3
-Team Leader
--HW Target Lock

3 Broadside Battlesuit 250
-Advanced Stabilization System x3
-Team Leader
--HW Target Lock

You've got a huge complement of battlesuits—18 in total. You've got three troop choices, which is respectable at this point level. Finally, you've got enough fire power to take on marines, mech, AND infantry.

Hope this helps,

Knute

More changes, after reading your post, Knute, which was very informative, and this: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/360480.page

15 suits, and a large compliment of Kroot. I quite like this one.

Nerivant wrote:Shas'el w/ PR + MP + TA + HW MT
Bodyguard w/ PR + MP + TA + HW MT

3 XV8 Crisis Suits w/ PR + MP + MT
3 XV8 Crisis Suits w/ TL MP + TA

I'd fill the last Elite slot with the two bodyguard suits, but with one Team Leader FK+. It gives the Shas'el flexibility, not being tied down to his pricier "retinue".

All other angles have been covered by Knute (though, Knute, I apologize that I don't take the time to read all of your long C&Cs). Once you started with this:

Knute wrote:I'm going to start off here with a general history behind the tau codex as a baseline on which to build my arguments and my advice.

... my eyes glazed over like it was my Government 101 class as a freshman in college.

Points saved is an add'l kroot or FW.

I'm not big on 1500 point games anymore, but this is what I ran. Very effective army for a Tau looking to have a powerhouse of pain that can wipe a myriad of armies. If you raise points to larger games this list also can become significantly more powerful.

The basic list is pretty solid but lacks a lot of heavy AT. If you are fighting someone who uses a few Land Raiders, Monoliths etc you will want to change up your AT options. If you feel so inclined you can truck out some Fusions in Farsights guard. Otherwise, for what most cats bring at 1500, this is rock solid. I've personally used this dozens of times with great success.


HQ
Farsight + Bodyguard - (BK Free)
Shas'Vre PR - MP - TA - HWMTT - DC x 2 SD
Shas'Vre PR - MP - TA - HWMTT - DC x 2 SD
Shas'Vre PR - MP - TA - HWMTT - DC x 2 SD
Shas'Vre PR - MP - TA - HWMTT - DC x 2 SD
Shas'Vre PR - MP - TA - HWMTT - DC x 2 SD
Shas'Vre PR - MP - TA - HWMTT - DC x 2 SD
Shas'vre PR - MP - TA - HWMTT


Troops:
Fire Warriors x 11 - x 1 Shas'Ui - EMP Grenade - (BK Free)

Fire Warriors x 11 - x 1 Shas'Ui - (BK Free)

Elites:
Crisis Suit x 1 - Shas'Vre TL/MP - TA - HWMTT - DC x 2 SD - HWTL - (BK Free)

Heavy Support:
Broadside Shas'Vre TA - DC x 2 SD - HWTL - (BK Free)
Broadside Shas'Ui TA


Total 1500

Wow knute that was awesome post. And I 100% agree. Expect maybe hammerhead thing ( I really like their mobility)
And that bodyguard thing for fireknives is true. I hear some people saying: I can make them BS4 with pathfinders.
That's very unreliable and you actually pay more points for it
List is good now.

-unforgiven-

Knute wrote:I generally agree with all of Unforgiven's advice. The CIB is kinda worthless. It's overpriced for what it (doesn't) do--namely, trying to kill marines. It's short-range and only works 1/6 of the time, all for an expensive 15 points. For that price, I can get two TL S7 shots. I like that option better.

Okay, a few things here, because of its low strength, it wounds marines on a 5 and 6, and so half of those wounds will actually rend. (Taken within rapid fire range for plasma rifle)

Plasma Rifle/CIB suit against MEQs:
65 Pts.
.833 wounds from PR
.555 wounds from CIB
PPK - 46.8

Plasma Rifle/MP suit against MEQs:
62 Pts.
.833 wounds from PR
.277 wounds from MP
PPK - 55.8

Deathrain w/ Targeting Array against MEQs:
53 Pts.
.494 wounds from TL MP
PPK - 107.3

Deathrain w/ Flamer against MEQs:
47 Pts.
.416 wounds from TL MP
PPK - 113

So as you can see, the CIB actually does its job well against marines. The plasma rifle IS better, but the PR/CIB suit is the best you'll get against them. Sure your range is 18", but with JSJ, you can be back to 24". Anyways, the PR is most effective in 12", so what the problem?

The problem is that you lose turns of shooting while you move into close enough range to use the CIB. Also, the CIB is replacing the missile pod, which is cheaper. So not only are you losing shots b/c you're gonna be out of range for a little while, you're spending more points to do it.

Check the math-hammer thread in my signature Knute. The missile pod is absolute garbage at killing anything 3+ or better. Those "turns of shooting" can be better described as "turns of failing"

But the beauty of the missile pod is that you can shoot it at other things--like vehicles, and things with 4+ armor saves, and you can do it at range for less than the CIB.

Yes, but after destroying a few Rhinos, what's left?

Marines.

And unfortunately, most people play Marines. So, there's not a lot of 4+ saves to shoot at :/

Knute wrote:But the beauty of the missile pod is that you can shoot it at other things--like vehicles, and things with 4+ armor saves, and you can do it at range for less than the CIB.

True, but then again, you have plenty'o railgun


Its really a hard balance to achieve, but if you want a unit to kill MEQs, killing MEQs is a priority.

I have really found that filling out all elite choices with a 1/1/1 mix of Bladestorm/Fireknife/Deathrain to be the best take all comers combination. If it's affordable, I take team leaders /w targeting arrays on the FK and DR suits as well.

And always max out broadsides (as much as possible, within config).

The CIB is a decent enough choice on the commander. It's about as effective as the Bladestorm at killing marines and termies and it has the chance to pull off some nasty shooting rounds in the event of some silly rolling. It's a fun and mostly competetive choice.

The CIB is only S3 with rending. It also only fires 5 shots. You're not even statistically guaranteed to rend a marine that you'll have to roll a 5 to wound in the first place. Also, the CIB can't take down light transports or MC's, nor can it instant death T3 models (like eldar, dark eldar and IG multi-wound models). Plus it's 3 points more than a missile pod. It's only slightly less effective against marines than the CIB. I think that's case enough against the CIB.

Flexibility and cost efficiency > narrow, gimmicky and expensive