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Last night at the beginning of a turn I had Wazdakka joined with a group of boyz.

I had Waz leave the right side of the unit and move 12 inches diagonally in front of the mob of boyz. When it got time to move them, I found that the left half could move within 2" of Waz. My opponent called foul and suggested he would not think that was possible.

His first argument didn't make sense but then 2 other people convinced him the reason I couldn't do that was that the rules state that for an IC to join a unit, the IC has to move within 2" of an already moved unit. I thought that was a ton of bull but just wanted to roll for it. My opponent refused to roll for it so I just moved a separate squad (BikerBoyz) to within in 2" of Waz which they had no problem with, thereby contradicting their whole argument.

I have no problem being wrong, just want to sort it out before next week's game.

Thanks for your input.

No ...
you can join a unit by ending your move within 2"
you can leave a unit by ending your move greater then 2"

Since there is no way that a character can move twice he can end his move only once per turn.

Tri, that would be incorrect. You have to move Wazzdakka and those boyz at the same time, as they are one unit. Also the check whether he leaves/joins is done at the end of the movement phase. If he is out of coherency he leaves the unit, if he is within 2" he stays/joins the unit. Because of that, the problem would never occur, you can leave/join only once each turn. (BRB pg. 48)

Jidmah wrote:Tri, that would be incorrect. You have to move Wazzdakka and those boyz at the same time, as they are one unit. Also the check whether he leaves/joins is done at the end of the movement phase. If he is out of coherency he leaves the unit, if he is within 2" he stays/joins the unit. Because of that, the problem would never occur, you can leave/join only once each turn. (BRB pg. 48)

Your logic makes no sense. The op just gave you a situation where both those occured in the same turn. At the end of the movement phase he was out of coherency with the unit he started with and in coherency with another unit.

+1 to pg 48 talking about Ics

My understanding is that an IC may leave or join a unit during its' movement. If Wazdakka is joined to a unit, he either moves with the unit or leaves the unit and joins another. The other unit may not move further. Or he can leave a unit and sit by his lonesome as no other unit can join him.

The problem is when they let you have Waz join the 2nd unit. He needs to end his movement near another squad. Not another squad ending their movement near him.

If you want to get extreally technical the other unit would have to move first and your ïc would have to move out of his unit and into the other...but that's just a matter of who moves first and in the end its all the same. I wouldn't make the distinction between them myself but some people are picky about wording.

VoxDei wrote:Your logic makes no sense. The op just gave you a situation where both those occured in the same turn. At the end of the movement phase he was out of coherency with the unit he started with and in coherency with another unit.

Uhm, no? Unless I'm seriously missing something, Wazzdakka has been in coherency with some boyz on the right side of the unit and ended up on the left side of the exact same unit.

VoxDei wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Tri, that would be incorrect. You have to move Wazzdakka and those boyz at the same time, as they are one unit. Also the check whether he leaves/joins is done at the end of the movement phase. If he is out of coherency he leaves the unit, if he is within 2" he stays/joins the unit. Because of that, the problem would never occur, you can leave/join only once each turn. (BRB pg. 48)

Your logic makes no sense. The op just gave you a situation where both those occured in the same turn. At the end of the movement phase he was out of coherency with the unit he started with and in coherency with another unit.

Jidmah's explanation is solid. Here's what he's saying:



By the end of it, he had this:



With Waz somehow in the biker squad, not the boyz.


The problem is that this situation should never have happened to begin with. You're supposed to move the entire unit at once. If you move the IC outside of the unit, then the rest of the unit can't move, because it was already nominated to move back when the IC was a part of it. It's only afterward that if the IC is outside of coherency that he breaks off. As a result, technically, he would still be a part of the boyz squad, and should never have had to join the biker squad.

The reason he doesn't stay in the squad is because Waz moved 12" and the mob moved 6". It's an unusual situation. It's always been my understanding that the IC can't leave and join the same squad in the same turn. However this is usually due to run moves and I havn't encountered this. This is kinda a double edged sword. It seems like you're taking advantage of the movement system to allow waz to move 12" and still stay in coherency with a squad that moved 6". However, the check is made at the end of the movement phase, and I don't recall any specific rule saying you can't leave and join the same squad, so it seems legal to me.

Ah, good catch. Waz would have needed to move with the rest of the squad.

Jidmah wrote:Tri, that would be incorrect. You have to move Wazzdakka and those boyz at the same time, as they are one unit. Also the check whether he leaves/joins is done at the end of the movement phase. If he is out of coherency he leaves the unit, if he is within 2" he stays/joins the unit. Because of that, the problem would never occur, you can leave/join only once each turn. (BRB pg. 48)

Miss read the original post ... (some what used to reading the post about leaving the unit and rejoing at the end of the move giving the IC more movement then they could normally get)

Still needs to leave the other unit though ... from the picture he looks to still be within 2" of the boyz

I'm not seeing any reference to a second unit in the original post. He was on the right of the unit, he moved 12" across the unit, and was in 2" of the boys on the left of the unit.

There are a couple of problems with that:
The IC is bound by the movement speed of the slowest model in the unit. So, since the IC doesn't count as having left the unit until he has moved away from them, technically he would still only be able to move 6" on the turn that he leaves them. (Although it's worth pointing out that a lot of players don't actually play this way).

The other problem is as pointed out at the start: both joining the unit and leaving the unit are determined after the IC moves. So if he's finishing his movement within 2" of the unit, he never left it.

The second and a half problem is the chick-and-the-egg issue of whether an IC can join a unit by having the unit move into coherency. While the rules do suggest that it has to be the IC moving into coherency with the unit, not vice versa, the final check for whether or not the IC is joined to the unit is whether or not they are within 2" of them at the end of the movement phase. So in common practice whether the unit moved or the IC did is largely irrelevant.

insaniak wrote:I'm not seeing any reference to a second unit in the original post. He was on the right of the unit, he moved 12" across the unit, and was in 2" of the boys on the left of the unit.

I can help with that:

PipeAlley wrote: so I just moved a separate squad (BikerBoyz) to within in 2" of Waz which they had no problem with, thereby contradicting their whole argument.

Bah... was still on my first coffee of the morning...


So yes, that's a separate issue entirely, but already covered in my response anyway

insaniak wrote:
The IC is bound by the movement speed of the slowest model in the unit.

This is pretty much how I've always done it, even if he leaves the squad since he started with the squad.

Important thing, the rule say "at the end of its (the ICs) movement phase" not "at the end of its movement". An IC never leaves or joins squads unless you are about to start shooting.

Thank you for your input everyone.

I can see how some people think it might be cheesy so I'll never do it again.

However, I have to say that the notion that an IC "has to move within 2 inches" of a unit that has already moved is quite idiotic. In the assault phase all IC's have to move first, and with the latest FAQ moving other models out of the way. If a leader is going to lead, they should probably move first in the movement phase and lead fron the front.

I'd go as far as to say that it makes more sense the all IC's should have to move first in the movement phase AND can be physically blocked from his/her own models in assault.

In essence exactly opposite of what the concensus seems to be.

Thank you all again and special thanks to daedalus for the picture.

Pipealley

PipeAlley wrote: In the assault phase all IC's have to move first,

That only applies to Defenders React moves, not to all assault moves.

PipeAlley wrote:... I have to say that the notion that an IC "has to move within 2 inches" of a unit that has already moved is quite idiotic. In the assault phase all IC's have to move first, and with the latest FAQ moving other models out of the way. If a leader is going to lead, they should probably move first in the movement phase and lead fron the front.

I'd go as far as to say that it makes more sense the all IC's should have to move first in the movement phase AND can be physically blocked from his/her own models in assault.
Pipealley

There's nothing saying that you can't move the IC as the first model in the unit he is with. You just can't move him 12" and then move the unit 6" and expect to have him rejoin the same unit.

insaniak wrote:

PipeAlley wrote: In the assault phase all IC's have to move first,

That only applies to Defenders React moves, not to all assault moves.

It also applies to Pile-In and thank you for reminding me that I cheated the last time I used my stupid Ministorum Priest. Gah!!