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If an Ork trukk rams a vehicle, and suffers Kerrunch! (passangers safetly disembark), may the former passangers shoot and assault in the respective turn phase as normal?

No, in fact they will not disembark, they will be destroyed with the trukk(as it moved flat-out that movement phase, and the passengers were forced to disembark but could not).

BRB FAQ:

Q: If a transport vehicle is destroyed in the same turn as it
moved flat out what happens to any embarked models? (p70)
A: They are removed as casualties.

Even for Orks with the the Ramshackle special rule?

Yep; as they cannot Disembark if they move flat out and all Ramshackle results require disembarkation.

Also remember that Rams force movement at the highest speed capable.

Kommissar Kel wrote:No, in fact they will not disembark, they will be destroyed with the trukk(as it moved flat-out that movement phase, and the passengers were forced to disembark but could not).

BRB FAQ:

Q: If a transport vehicle is destroyed in the same turn as it
moved flat out what happens to any embarked models? (p70)
A: They are removed as casualties.

I would say that this isn't the case, since the potential 'vehcile destroyed' result is replaced with a Kerrunch result from the Ramshackle table. The unit dying would be one of the usual effects that the rule says it replaces. That's just my interpretation, feel free to disagree

It is a Must vs Cannot; they must disembark(all 3 ramshackles); but cannot because they moved to fast. They would likewise be destroyed if the trukk was surrounded by enemies.

My one point of contention would be that it depends on how far the trukk actually moved before it made contact with the other vehicle. If it moved 12" or less I don't think the passengers would auto die (18" on a road!!!).

Ramming Page 69 of the BRB; "Ramming is a special type of tank shock move and is executed in the same way, except that the tank must always move at the highest speed it is capable of."

Right but if a Trukk hits a tank thats 10" away and fails to explode it, it stops. It tried to move 18" but only actually moved 10", then flipping to pg. 57 "a vehicle that travels more than 6" and up to 12" is moving at cruising speed". So it doesn't matter how far the vehicle tried to move, all that matters is how far it actually moved, 10" in this case.

Likewise if it rammed a vehicle that is 10" away and destroyed itself, it would be counted as moving at cruising speed before the damage since it has only moved 10" that turn.

And with Red Paint Job, that's increased by an inch.

Unfortunately the rules do not cover Fast transports ramming, but they do cover any ramming vehicles and firing; Back to BRB page 60 first paragraph of ramming: "Ramming is a rather desperate maneuver and means the tank must concentrate on moving at top speed towards one enemy vehicle. This means that it may not shoot in that turn's Shooting phase, making it an attractive choice for vehicles that have no armament left, or are shaken.

Since the Vehicle must move at it's fastest speed possible(Cruising for normal, Flat out for Fast), and cannot Fire no matter how far it actually moved(and Vehicles can only not fire when they are moving at their highest speeds) we can exstrapolate that no matter the physical distance moved the vehicle is Considered to have moved it's fastest possible speed.

I definitely see what you're getting at, but I just don't think it's clear enough to assume that a ramming vehicle "counts as" moving its full speed, instead of determining speed based on its actual distance moved like the vehicle movement rules say.

Kommissar Kel wrote:It is a Must vs Cannot; they must disembark(all 3 ramshackles); but cannot because they moved to fast. They would likewise be destroyed if the trukk was surrounded by enemies.

I would say you are right but ramshackle is a special rule so that does not apply. Special rules are " SPECIAL RULES " for a reason. Unless FAQ i would go with the special rule ruling every time. I don't think this is RAI VS RAW either.
Also the speed is counted by how far you move in real distance. If the other vehicle is 13" inches away and i am only moving 13 but since i have RPJ which is a Special Rule. i am only counted as moving 12 are you trying to say i moved Flatout ?
The reason you have to move as fast as you can is because you can ram more then on vehicle if you take out the first one.

But you're all agreed that the passangers are dead with the flaying scenario?

Ramming requires the fastest speed possible, but as per the brb " if the vehicle that is rammed is not removed, the rammer halts ". If you halt and you do not move the speed required to be considered flat out, you are not flat out. If you ram a vehicle 6 inches away the stop you cannot consider that flat out speed, that is ludicrous.

Also vehicles not shooting during ramming is due to the fact that the rules specifically state that you cannot fire if you choose to ram, not due to speed.

Kel - i disagree on the speed moved

If you do not move over 12" you CANNOT have moved flat out, as you have not met the requirements to do so. You must attempt to move that far, but if you dont actually make it you have not moved flat out. The "you cannot shoot" is just denying you from firing if you declare a ram against something 2" away, and thus potentially getting 2 "attacks" from the same vehicle.

Jordan - the rule in the codex does not specify that the occupants can always disembark; as such the rulebook is more specific than the codex and wins out.

Specific > General, not codex > general

Nos and Grabzak: You both said basically the same thing so i will reply to both together.

I hear what you are trying to say about not being able to shoot because the ramming rules state that you cannot shoot. The problem is that GW gave us a Reason for why they cannot shoot, instead of just flat disallowing it.

If the Second Sentence had said: "Ramming Vehicles may not shoot in that turn's Shooting phase, making it an attractive choice for vehicles that have no armament left, or are shaken." Then you'd be golden and I'd have no argument; but unfortunately the second sentence is contextually obliged to the first sentence from the slight variation in wording.

We are given a Reason for not being able to fire, and that reason is that our vehicles are moving to fast. So we are left with either: Fast Transports also lose their cargo, or Actual distance traveled will define ability to shoot.

"and means that the tank must concentrate on moving at top speed towards one enemy vehicle. This means that it may not shoot in that turn’s Shooting phase" Pg 69

This means - and says, they may not fire any weapons due to concentrating on moving at top speed towards one enemy vehicle.

On 'Vehicle and Movement'
"• A vehicle that remains stationary will be able to bring
its full firepower to bear on the enemy.
• A vehicle that travels up to 6" is moving at combat
speed. This represents the vehicle advancing slowly in
order to keep firing, albeit with reduced firepower.
• A vehicle that travels more than 6" and up to 12" is
moving at cruising speed. This represents the vehicle
concentrating on moving as fast as possible without
firing its guns." Pg 57
This show that the speed moved is determined by the actualy distance travelled (apologies to the Orks' RPJ)

Nothing in the tank-shock rules indicate they move a distance and 'count as moving at xxx'. We are told they concentrate on moving as fast as possible and this means they may not fire.
This is not linked to the movement speeds otherwise they could/would have said "the vehicle counts as moving a cruising speed". As things stand the condition of moving 'flat-out' etc is dependant on the distance moved, and the TS rules do not indicate that a vehicle 'counts-as' moving more than the actual distance moved - see the Deep Strike rules for an example of a vehicle move a distance and counting as, "Vehicles count as having moved at cruising speed." Pg 95

We can go back to Fast transports and moving flat out as well.

BRB Page 70: "Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved(or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase."

Now as ramming vehicles must move as fast as possible you cannot get out before you ram(you intend to move flat out); and by extension could not get out after moving, if you say:" well I didn't actually move flat out" why couldn't you get out before you moved then?

KK - they *concentrate* on moving at top speed; that does not mean they actually DO move at top speed.

The reason you could not get out beforehand is you declared an intention to move at top speed, by declaring a ram.

You cannot have moved flat out unless you move over 12"

eh, it doesn't matter; I just don't ram with fast transports unless they are empty any ways, and to actually get the Trukk moving enough for said ram to do any damage to move tanks you need to move flat out anyways(12" of actual movement just to possibly glance av10).

Kommissar Kel wrote:eh, it doesn't matter; I just don't ram with fast transports unless they are empty any ways, and to actually get the Trukk moving enough for said ram to do any damage to move tanks you need to move flat out anyways(12" of actual movement just to possibly glance av10).

Yeah, I agree...

I feel that the 'everyone dies' is based upon actual distance moved in a ram... Realistically, I can't see many reasons to 'ram' with a trukk less than 12 inches as you will never even reach the strength high enough to harm anything.

If you do RAM over them magical 13" and ramshackle, everyone dies. It isn't the vehicle destruction table killing them, it is the flat out rules killing them, so the ramshackle rules that replace vehicle destruction don't come in to play.

Actually, there IS a good reason to do this.

A trukk moving flat out with a ram could deal a strength 10 hit.

8 for speed (24"/3) + 2 for the ram.

Following that, the trukk could be destroyed by the ramming but instead suffer a Kerrunch result (preventing the destroyed result and instead disembark the squad safely), the squad inside could then shoot and assault an enemy unit... theoretically.

I thought of this a while ago, and it just seems like good orkiness to do this. However, I never have, because I wasn't sure how it fit with the rules, and without an offical ruling from GW via FAQ or an agreement with my opponent I wouldn't dare pull a move like this.

I'm pretty interested in how everyone feels about it.

Kommissar Kel wrote:It is a Must vs Cannot; they must disembark(all 3 ramshackles); but cannot because they moved to fast. They would likewise be destroyed if the trukk was surrounded by enemies.

On this I have to say that you are totally wrong. The Trukk rules apply over the normal rules. Codex rules are always above the Rulebook.

TRUKKS RULE!!!!

MadGretchin wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:It is a Must vs Cannot; they must disembark(all 3 ramshackles); but cannot because they moved to fast. They would likewise be destroyed if the trukk was surrounded by enemies.

On this I have to say that you are totally wrong. The Trukk rules apply over the normal rules. Codex rules are always above the Rulebook.

TRUKKS RULE!!!!

Not true... codex doesn't give blanket permission to ignore other rules. Models that move flat out cannot disembark in the same player turn, models which cannot disembark are destroyed. Nothing in Ramshackle overrules this.

You 'must' disembark and follow any rules that disembarking action leads to, which appens to be destructon if you moved over 13".

They would only be destroyed if the vehicle actually moved Flat out.


its perfectly possable to ram a vehicle and not have gone over 12" and then destroy the Trukk.

Deepbeige - except that Kerrunch still requires you to Disembark - and you cannot do so if you move flat out. Nothing in the codex overrides this, nothing.

MadGretchin - you are entirely, utterly, 110% wron g in your assertion.

SPecific > General. Or do you allow WBB against SA?

No ramshackle is a special rule that allows the orks to get out of a Trukk and only a Trukk. ...............Page 74 BRB < If any of the Codexes include one of these special rules and the rule is different, the one in the Codex takes PRECEDENCE (representing how the general special rule applies to that specific race).> This applies to all special rule. Also ramshackle only happend then you have rolled on the chart for damage. If you roll a 5 or 6 The Ramshackle takes place. So after ramming if a ork trukk get a 5 or 6 then this happens. So then they could bail out depending on the roll of ramshackle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jordan23ryan wrote:No ramshackle is a special rule that allows the orks to get out of a Trukk and only a Trukk. ...............Page 74 BRB < < If any of the Codexes include one of these special rules and the rule is different, the one in the Codex takes PRECEDENCE (representing how the general special rule applies to that specific race).> This applies to all special rule. Also ramshackle only happens when you have rolled on the chart for damage. If you roll a 5 or 6 The Ramshackle takes place. So after ramming if a ork trukk get a 5 or 6 then this happens. So then they could bail out depending on the roll of ramshackle.

Sigh.

It tells you to Disembark. Is this a special "disembark" that only Orks do, which is fully described in the Ramshyackle rules? No. It is the same disembark as described in the rulebook, and the same prohibition - you CANNOT disembark if you move flatout - applies

Your rulebook quote is also entirely out of context, re read it. It applies when you have two versions of a rule (smoke launchers, for example) then the codex version wins out. Here there are NOT two versions of the rule: in any case you must Disembark, as per the BRB.

jordan23ryan wrote:No ramshackle is a special rule that allows the orks to get out of a Trukk and only a Trukk. ...............Page 74 BRB < If any of the Codexes include one of these special rules and the rule is different, the one in the Codex takes PRECEDENCE (representing how the general special rule applies to that specific race).> This applies to all special rule. Also ramshackle only happend then you have rolled on the chart for damage. If you roll a 5 or 6 The Ramshackle takes place. So after ramming if a ork trukk get a 5 or 6 then this happens. So then they could bail out depending on the roll of ramshackle.

They are replacing vehicle destroyed rules with ramshackle. Ramshackle doesn't replace FLAT OUT rules.

The orks ramshackle, which makes them disembark and follow all legal rules for disembarking. If they moved flat out int hat player turn, the models are destroyed. Has nothing to do with vehicle destroyed rules.