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I'm interested in starting a Tau army or waiting for the new Necrons. Was wondering if Tau as they are right now can compete with the big dogs like SW, Mech IG, GK, BA and DE.

What does Dakka think on this subject? Are they good enough to compete in the hands of a good general? Or is their outdated codex and overcosted units too set back. I'm new to the Tau army and have really never played much with or against them. I currently play BA and IG.

Thanks.

It really depends on your local gaming meta. In mine, we've got a good number of Tau players who can compete fairly well against other compete players.

From what I've heard in the super competitive section though, they don't match up all too well.

Simply put, Tau played well can compete at I'd say a B to B- level. Poorly played Tau definitely rank a D or F.

I know I dont see any high placing Tau but as I look at the XV88 suits they seem really strong. 2+ for 70 pts each w/ a TL Railgun? Is that the only thing Tau really have going for them or what? They seem like they can be pretty good.

The broadside is certainly a highlight of the Tau Codex and one of your main sources of anti-tank fire. But, as with most other heavy-weapon infantry, they're slow to bear, and require smart placement in order to be effective and safe from outflankers, rushing assault units, deepstrikers, etc.

Good Tau players need to think a lot about where to put these Broadsides so that they can do their job on the battlefield while still maintaining a degree of safety. After all, a 2+ save doesn't help against a powerfist, or a sniping lascannon shot, or 20 rapid-firing bolters.

If you've the time, proxy the models, or borrow from the friend (some GW stores employees might even make an introductory game with you if it meant a good sale.)

There's also vassal 40k.

Not to crush your hopes and dreams, but no, Tau cannot compete at all any more. They were barely able to in the first place, but no longer.

In 4th edition, since forests and area terrain wasn't true line of sight, crisis suits could actually do something as they would pop out from behind cover, shoot, then pop back in without fear of reprisal. As this is no longer the case, crisis suits don't have a lot use any more.

Broadsides are definitely awesome, especially if you give them all shield drones. Probably one of the most survivable units in the game. Problem is, as has been pointed out, they're very slow. I used to use 6 of them with shield drones and plasma, and it did pretty well for a time. Then came the new trend:

Enter the Blood Angels. This army can deepstrike the majority of it's army, reliably, on turn 2 within 6 inches of your lines. What this translates to is you have one turn to destroy his entire army before he gets you in an assault. Since this codex has come out, every codex to follow has followed this trend. GW simply doesn't seem to care about the power creep they are creating, and actually seems to be nurturing it.

Yes they can compete in the hands of a good general. The trick is, the general has to be good with Tau, not just good in general. I have several friends that do well with Marines/DE/Eldar etc, but once they pick up Tau they can't win a game to save their lives. I've always been able to do very well with Tau, got third and best painted in a tourney just last week, but some players never really 'get it'. That being said, there aren't any armies or builds I really worry about, having a solid list, experience, and tactics have been more than enough for me.

They require a player to build lists that work differently, and to think about things a different way. More effort goes into fire lanes, controlling enemy movement, target priority, and buffering than in most other armies.

Weaknesses:
Troops aren't great; kroot do have tactical uses, firewarriors are mainly just used for scoring (competitively)
Close Combat; Tau evaporate in CC, I don't see it as a weakness personally. Tau don't participate in CC, and that can be used as an advantage

Strengths:
Crisis Suits; these are the workhorses. Suits do the majority of damage in Tau armies, and with Jump-Shoot-Jump they can be very difficult to eliminate when used by a good player.
Broadsides; easily one of the best tank-busters in the game. They can cover the entire board, and pop anything in the game. A personal favorite is adding Plasma to them, making them a nightmare for MCs/Marines/etc., not a universally appreciated option though.
Disruption Pods; cheap upgrade giving Tau tanks 4+ cover, making them some of the more durable tanks in the game.
Piranha; one of my favorite units, and IMO essential for success. They block enemy movement, their drones block enemy assaults, with tank hunting on the side.

Thats a very, very, basic summary. Many people, especially around here, will tell you Tau are practially unuseable. I disagree. There aren't a lot of good Tau players around anymore though, so take whatever you want from that.

If you are willing to 'pay your dues' with the learning curve, aren't stubborn about a desired army build, and really like the models, then go for the Tau. If you want something easier, then wait for a new release.

If you want to be a competitve player with Tau you want to run a suit heavy list.

I picked up Tau about a month ago after reading a lot about tactics and builds. I've only played 4 games so far, but I'm 2-2 and every game very close to being a draw--way better than I usually do with a totally new army, especially against regular/veteran members of my local gaming group. Except for my third game where I made newbie mistakes and got caught in assault with Belial (who wiped out most of my army by himself, even though I had already shot most of his army to death before he reached me), I've been impressed with the Tau ability to win games.

I picked up Tau actually to improve my gameplay with IG, since I think shooty army players have a lot to learn from playing Tau. So far it seems to me that it has a lot to do with screening, delaying, and selectively sacrificing units to keep your suits pouring fire into the enemy.

I have to disagree with Dawn of a New Warlord about the effect of deepstriking on Tau. The one game I played against Deathwing assault (which deepstrikes on turn 1 and is already in your face with 2+ saves before BA are even on the table) I nearly held him using kroot with a combination of bubble wrap and screening. He broke through because I was still learning exactly how to use the kroot to hold off assaults, and Belial made an insane number of 2+ saves (like 18 or more in a row), but if I had it to do again I bet I would be able to do it.

Im new to 40K only been playing 2 months but i chose Tau for 2 reasons mobility and shooting its a sci-fi game F melee i want robots and big guns in the future. basicly in my area there are 60% marine the rest xeno and there is about one xeno for each faction so most of my exp is against marines. As for list tailoring i have yet to be beaten in a match draws yes but not a loss when i tailoring my first touny is at the end of the month and ive found thats where its hard for the tau is BALANCE. its hard to be effecient at killing everything and with so few suits next to the other number people have its really hard to eat enough of them up before they grab you in CC no to mention there are only so many speedbumps you can throw before your done.

I understand power creep and old ed codex rants but in all honesty point cost reduction (because damn near everyone has had on with thier new dex).

i cite this as the only real big problem because having enough volume to handle Nids and enough stopping power for BA or SW mech rush is damn near impossible and im not talking enough to win the game in turn on but enough to have a chance to not get multi assaulted in turn 1 or turn. ass it stands even with tailor turn 1 shooting determines everything much of the time and thats not fun for me or my opponent. Im no stellar general i do make mistakes but the razors edge of turn 1 gets old unless you get the terrian you want (line of sight blocking) and some corner to corner action

Personally I would wait for the new Tau 'dex to come out before I get too involved. If you start now you have to realise you're to be buying ugly (XV8's...essential if you ever plan on winning) models with an outdated ruleset, just so that in a year or so you can buy ALL new XV8s (almost sure they'll be given options that come into conflict with the current model kit).

That being said, Tau is one of the most rewarding armies in the 40k universe to play. Every movement, shooting, and assault phase is a series of meticulously calculated actions planned turns in advance. You and your nub BA/SW/IG opponent will be playing two completely different games of 40k. His version of 40k is to your version what Mega Bloks is to Technics. When you win, its not because you got some lucky rolls or beat him in army list poker, its because you were BETTER, and that is why you play Tau.

But you'd better expect to get whipped, HARD, for your first 5-10 games (provided you constantly change up your army list and keep learning the many roles of each unit).

Can they compete? yes. Can they win? Well thats a tricky one to answer. Key factors

1. Do you know what you're doing?
2. Does your opponent know what they're doing?
3. Terrain
4. Dice rolls
5. Etc you get the picture.

I've seen a guy take only basic infantry (no this was fantasy but still) and the fewest upgrades on any of his units and still kick the crap out of everyone i know. Point is any army can still win. However some armies aren't as well equiped these days for it as others. Tau is def one that is getting the short end of the stick.

I guess all I want to say is this. If you want to play Tau then play them. Sooner or later they will come out with new rules, and yet another new codex. So for now you will probably lose alot of games with them, not because they suck, because it comes with the territory. However Tau have always been a somewhat one-dimensional army since their birth into the 40k universe. So they're play style probably won't change too much in the next codex. With that you can rest assured.

Biggest problem IMO with Tau is the lack of terrain that truely blocks LOS on many boards. Without a lot of that type of terrain on the board Tau will be taken apart.

Even with Shield drones suits of any type will be taken apart to quickly without good cover to hide behind. Invul saves just will not cut it due to the high points cost of suits. If you have true LOS blocking terrain though their mobility can make them a serious pain to play against. I put my Tau up in the attic until the new codex because the terrain issue just became to annoying. I could generally look at a board before I started, look at my opponents army, and basically predict how the game was going to end up with a scary amount of accuracy.

vonjankmon wrote:Biggest problem IMO with Tau is the lack of terrain that truely blocks LOS on many boards. Without a lot of that type of terrain on the board Tau will be taken apart.

Even with Shield drones suits of any type will be taken apart to quickly without good cover to hide behind. Invul saves just will not cut it due to the high points cost of suits. If you have true LOS blocking terrain though their mobility can make them a serious pain to play against. I put my Tau up in the attic until the new codex because the terrain issue just became to annoying. I could generally look at a board before I started, look at my opponents army, and basically predict how the game was going to end up with a scary amount of accuracy.

I haven't really had any trouble with terrain, usually just using Devilfish as terrain when needed has provided all the cover I need, and its mobile. In my last 6 games I can only remember losing one suit, sure I do lose Piranha, drones and kroot, but the suits have been shooting all game. Maybe you boxed them up too soon

How are you hiding the suits behind the fish? You can see under them to some extent and they're not quite big enough to totally hide 3 suits.

*Edit* Not to mention don't your opponents just cook the fish? They're not that hard to drop.

Creeping Dementia wrote:Yes they can compete in the hands of a good general. The trick is, the general has to be good with Tau, not just good in general. .

I definitely concur. I am IMHO a fairly good general with almost every other army. I have played Tau twice and think I did quite well to come up with draws in both matches. Note not wins and I feel both games were very competitive just the Tau seem to lack that juice to get them over the top.

From my standpoint, the speed of the game (via running and now average deployment separation of only 18") and the overwhelming power of HTH leave the Tau struggling. Think of it, you suck at HTH especially with your troop choices and to control objectives you need to get troops on top of them. Tau firepower is still awesome but you are losing about 1 turn of fire due to the accelerated closing speeds and what has always been a weakness is exacerbated by 5th CC resolution.

A quality general will always win out but a quality general with SW or BA is going to have a great Tau general fighting for his life from the get-go.

vonjankmon wrote:How are you hiding the suits behind the fish? You can see under them to some extent and they're not quite big enough to totally hide 3 suits.

*Edit* Not to mention don't your opponents just cook the fish? They're not that hard to drop.

Sometimes they aren't completely out of LOS, that depends on what they're up against, vertical angles, etc. And of course the Fish are big/wide enough, so long as you don't line up the Suits to create a conga line footprint, jump them around in more of a triad pattern and they all get behind the chassis fine.

Tau tanks are some of the hardest to drop. AV12, with permanent cover means on average you need about 8-10 Krak missile hits to wreck one, which means your opponent is firing roughly 12 missiles to bring down a single transport. Meltas are halted before getting range by blocking Piranha, and transports and missile teams are taken out by massed Broadsides and missile pods. When opponents have to worry about Rails, annoying Piranha, Crisis, Hammerheads, etc., they don't care about Devilfish so much. Unless you're silly and put too much crap on the Fish.

To be successful with Tau you have to do several jobs well at once, 1) block movement/control the battlefield, 2) Buffer to prevent Deep Strikes and Assaults on important stuff, 3) Target Priority, and 4) pwn Mechanized armies. A lot of Tau players I see are only good at one of those things, Target Priority, and they forget to screw with where your opponent can move and block stuff and/or worry about horde armies too much and don't bring enough of the best tank busting weaponry available in the game (Fusion/Rail/MP).

Important Tau units are in 2 categories:
1) Damage Dealers- Crisis, Broadsides, Hammerheads
2) Time buyers- Piranha and their Drones, Kroot, Devilfish

It depends on the points. At 1000-1250 tau are good. Higher up not so much as you've used up all your elites and HS

As an IG player with Vendettas that always have a 4+ cover on turn 1, trust me it doesn't take that much effort to drop it.

Just providing cover to suits isn't enough, they have got to be out of line of sight. Other wise my IG (and several other armies I can think of) can easily drop an entire squad a turn, my Hydra's could probably do it by themselves if you were within 36 inches so I could toss the HB's in.

Using the Piranha is a good idea though, never did that. Usually used extra Fishes or Kroot and it kind of backfired in KP games as at that point the drones counted.

vonjankmon wrote:As an IG player with Vendettas that always have a 4+ cover on turn 1, trust me it doesn't take that much effort to drop it.

Just providing cover to suits isn't enough, they have got to be out of line of sight. Other wise my IG (and several other armies I can think of) can easily drop an entire squad a turn, my Hydra's could probably do it by themselves if you were within 36 inches so I could toss the HB's in.

Using the Piranha is a good idea though, never did that. Usually used extra Fishes or Kroot and it kind of backfired in KP games as at that point the drones counted.

Just based on my experience, I really enjoy going up against IG, they don't move toward me and they rely on tanks. That gets back to the fact that many Tau players don't pack enough anti-tank to silence a real Mech list. Bringing along 6-9 Broadsides, 6-9 TL-MP suits depending on point levels and Piranha does the trick (thats a TAC list, not tailored to Guard)

And its usually only infantry that can see all the way under a Fish. Due to the height of Tank guns, the length of the Fish, the height of the skimmer stand, and the angle between the two, a Tank often can't see the feet of Suits. Just gotta make sure the opponent is using TLOS from the guns, not the tank treads.

Tau can win. But they cant massacre easy.

Against some armies, Tau will have a very hard time. BA, SW, Necrons (yes, Necrons, namely the lists with huge units of warriors gathered around a res orb. We do not have the firepower to kill off that many warriors. The only way you can win is by swamping them with kroot), they're quite tough, especially BA and SW.

BA can drop down, wreck your hammerheads or cook your broadsides, blood lance your suits... FNP everywhere means that only railguns and crisis plasma really do anything noticable, and it isn't surprising when the broadsides and crisis suits are the main targets.

SW can drop a Rune Priest with Jaws behind your lines in a drop pod, line up jaws to get as many broadsides as possible, and you've lost your heavy support on turn 1. The ability to have 4 Rune Priests with Jaws means that whichever broadsides didn't die, will be dying next.

Krak missile spam from long fangs also obliterates your crisis units, with 3 long fang units fully able to kill off a full crisis unit each per turn. 5 Missile Launchers vs 3 Suits and usually a shield drone or two doesn't look good for the suits.

TL Las or Las/Plas razorbacks sweep up afterwards.

When you face a generic Space Wolf army, it is very hard to get anywhere.

Sisters of Battle can also be annoying to an extent, especially if they're running 3x Exorcists. The S8 AP1 property of Exorcist Missiles makes them deadly to even Broadsides, with a single Exorcist capable of reducing a unit of Broadsides to nothing in a single salvo.

Other armies are, to certain extents, easier to cope with. Orks don't usually pose a threat, all our weapons are capable of tearing apart their transports, with markerlights removing the KFF cover save at will. Once grounded, rip into the green tide, always making sure that you stay just out of charge range via WAAAGH! until it is declared, then just stay out of general charge range.

Vanilla marines are also only tough in a select few forms, as are Guard and CSM; they shouldn't pose a huge problem outside of those rare builds.

Other Tau armies can be strange to deal with, as can Eldar (Wave Serpent transports are horrible; 7 turns and 4 railguns (two of them twin-linked) managed only to immobilise a Falcon in a game vs Eldar; the only vehicles were 1 Falcon and a Wave Serpent that remained intact all game), but few enough forms of both armies are competative that countering them can be learned quite easily.

Tau is the super drink chick at the party. When she sits down across from me and starts the game, I gotta pretty good chance i'm going to smash.

Creeping dementia is spot on in his analysis of Tau strengths and weaknesses. With many tau lists it comes down to how good you are at deployment and at movement rather than your target priority. There's really only 1-2 viable builds within the codex as TAC lists and it takes a lot of time, practice and patience in order to get good with them. Layering your forces from piranha, gun drones, kroot, devil fish and then firewarriors is key in keeping your fire support alive long enough to get your enemy down to manageable numbers that whatever you have left over can wipe them out with small arms. Don't discount kroot shooting either, even though it's BS3 bolters, enough of them will drop a few marines or any other basic infantry.

Another trick is to learn how to movement limit jumpers and skimmers. Blocking is easy but forcing your opponent to have to flat out or only get 6" closer can be much trickier.

Also learning how to properly spread out for deep strike defense is key if that's what you're running into as well as proper bubblewrap for things like wolf scouts and snikrot. Yes you'll lose units that are charged, just make sure those that can be charged aren't important.

Played at their best, Tau can compete with poor to middling made/played armies of anything with a 5th edition codex. Tau cannot hope to compare to any 5th edition codex that is made/played at a truly competitive level. The tools just aren't there, and their tournament performance reflects this.

I am 0-8 so far. There is a steep learning curve if they are your first army in 5th ed. I had two 'close' games but no victories. My last game was at 2k points against mechanical IG.

I started rather well with railguns knocking out tanks and transports. The problem was that I just couldn't keep it up. He had too many vehicles and his Russes started tearing me up. I think at higher point games Tau's handicap becomes more severe. Our units are more expensive and we just can't field enough of the proper units to deal with masses of vehicles.

Just my view based on my limited experience. Obviously Tau veterans can win or invested in all Broadsides units lol.

It is widely agreed that Tau are among the two worst armies in the game at the moment.

That said, the gap is not so wide as to be unbridgeable. A good player should have a decent chance against a stronger codex in the hands of a weaker or unluckier player.

The problem with tournaments is that only good players get to the later rounds, and they usually take a stronger codex than Tau.

In truth, Tau haven't been an important factor on the tournament scene for as long as I have been reviewing GT results (2005 onwards).

Culler wrote:Played at their best, Tau can compete with poor to middling made/played armies of anything with a 5th edition codex. Tau cannot hope to compare to any 5th edition codex that is made/played at a truly competitive level. The tools just aren't there, and their tournament performance reflects this.

Exactly.

Whats wrong with Tau? Well they are missing some massive facets of competitive armies, (generally from worst to least bad):

Effective assault unit(s)
Staying Power/All round troop choices
A Morale Rule of some kind (Fearless, ATSKNF, Commisar, Hive Mind ETC.)
Psychic Defence
Psychic Offense
Artillery (Indirect Barrages)
Safe Deep Strike
Armor 14

All they really have is shooting, and speed, and they aren't really the best at either. Compare this to other recent codices, that have most or all of those things and a Tau player is playing at a pretty massive handicap. Firepower becomes the answer to everything, and it just doesn't always work. Especially when the blood angels deep strike all over them, or the Dark Eldar roar down, or the space wolves pod in etc.

There's one other problem with the Tau, and that is synergy, the army is really built on a need for units to interact, so if a piece of the chain fails, then the whole army is in trouble. For example marker lights need seeker missiles on separate tanks, if the tanks are dead or the infantry in melee the other half of that combo is worthless. Markerlights need some sort of other unit to fire at their targets or they are worthless. Troop elements need transports to stay out of melee and transports need troops in them to score. Kroots need a unit to help them with tanks and Tau Antitank units need Kroot to keep them safe from melee,.. The list is riddled with interdependency, its a great concept but it just comes apart in play like wet tissue paper.

My advice, build something else, if you like the sleek fast playstyle build Dark Eldar, if you like the hard sci fi look build IG with gunships.

Best of luck!

EDIT:

For the record, I LOVE Tau, I'm a huge fan of their look and concept and I think all their models are incredible! I use to have a massive army in 4th edition but I gave them up as soon as 5th came out. In 5th ed. I have never lost a game to Tau, ever, this isn't a boast, actually the reverse, I don't think that's because of me, I think it's the army match ups. Every game I have played, even the casual ones, have been totally outclassed. My 5th ed armies are Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Eldar and Necrons (Eesh I know).

I too love tau but feel they are not a competitive army. Playing at a handicap can be fun, but if you are not ready to be the constant underdog...it could get tedious.

They are missing some major elements of effective gameplay and their touted strengths are somewhat lackluster. I really hope their updated codex isn't invalidated by 6th edition. There my favorite army but I've put them away til rerelease.

Augustus wrote:

Whats wrong with Tau? Well they are missing some massive facets of competitive armies, (generally from worst to least bad):

Effective assault unit(s)
Staying Power/All round troop choices
A Morale Rule of some kind (Fearless, ATSKNF, Commisar, Hive Mind ETC.)
Psychic Defence
Psychic Offense
Artillery (Indirect Barrages)
Safe Deep Strike
Armor 14

You might notice that the quote above almost perfectly describes any and all space marine armies. Sad day.

To comment on the list of "needs" for an army to be considered competitive, I don't think effective assault units are as important as they may seem. The Tau style of play precludes the need for effect assault units, what is needed is a decent tarpit or fodder unit to take a couple for the greater good. To give them 'good' assault units would be game-changing. It may allow them to be more competitive in tournament environments, but at the risk of transforming them from the what they are now (I like to view them as the thinking man's DE) into just another variation of the old xenos stateline + gimmick template.

I agree with Augustus in that we need more effective Moral rules. The Etheral (reroll pass or fail) + Shadowsun (high Ld.) combination is beautiful for setting traps and building infantry fortresses (or would be if firewarriors weren't gak) but needs a little help rules-wise to really make them as powerful as they should be.

As for the rest its either here nor there I suppose. Psychic defense would be appreciated, psychic offense is unfluffy, safe deepstrike is already (semi) present with the pathfinder devilfish (then we run into subject of unit interdependency, a central theme of the Tau), Tau armour 14 would be.....majestic.

The best tau have going for them right now is broadsides, piranhas and crisis suits. Everything else is meatshields for these guys. That said, without proper protection (kroot walls) or dice luck, you dice fast and hard.

Flechettes on piranhas are your best bet vs hordes
Broadsides are your anti tank of choice
Crisis suits with plasma are excellent, ones with missile pods work well vs transports.

I experiment with a commander that has an airburster to deal with hordes a bit better, and I toss on a fusion blaster for the random deep striker.