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A bloodletter bomb deep striking in is an immediate turn 1 threat. A squad of berserkers in a Rhino is at best a turn two threat. That's another consideration too.

mrhappyface wrote:Tzeentch isn't my strong spot (Primary is Khorne and I dabble in the other gods) but I'd say Alpha Legion Tzeentch focus could work, though it wouldn't be the most competitive choice. I'd say you could have a solid core of rubric stand ins piled into rhinos, I'd add onto that some sorcerers for your HQ slots and some cultists to fill out troops slots (yeah you have a lot of marines but CSM are next to useless and really just a waste of points), then I'd fill out your heavy support slots with havocs (this is where your marines come in) equipped with mid-short ranged weapons that you can then infiltrate forwards. You can tack your storm eagle onto that and maybe get a sorcerer to throw a 5++ onto it.

To get the more Tzeentchy vibe, you could then pair this with a Tzeentch battalion: Lord of Change w/impossible robes + a Herald, some units of 20+ pinks and some flamers that you can use the new deep strike stratagem with to throw down some serious dakka.

So, for purchases, I'd say get yourself a small Tzeentch daemon army with the above units and just have fun with converting your current units into chaos models.

Thanks! nice to know I'm more or less on the right track.

mrhappyface wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Is it just me, or does a blood letter mass summon assault look a lot better than trying to use berserkers now. Bring a Daemon Detachment. Summon in bloodletters, you don't even need to use the strategem for 3d6. Just make sure you have instrument which adds +1 to your charge. And if you have Khorne loci, you have reroll charge too. And bloodletters are a lot cheaper than Berserkers.

You can add a Khorne patrol detachment to our CSM detachments, and you can do this already right?

Sure. Except around about equal points in Bloodletters gives you 21x S5 AP-3 D1 attacks versus Berzerkers 8x S10 AP-3 Dd3, 24x S6 AP-1 D1 and 10x S5 AP- D1 attacks. Berzerkers are better against high toughness units (VotLW making them even better) and they're better against low toughness units (S6 giving them 2+ vs T3). Bloodletters do have the unique ability now to enact alpha strikes that can clear out chaff and MEQs but they still don't hit like a bus like Zerkers do.

Not sure how many berzerkers in that blob, but there is something to be said for 30 bodies with a 5++. Berzerkers hit harder, but die easier.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
A bloodletter bomb deep striking in is an immediate turn 1 threat. A squad of berserkers in a Rhino is at best a turn two threat. That's another consideration too.

Your entire army isn't that bomb. You need a hammer to your anvil, and Berzerkers in Rhinos can be a part of that hammer. Think six turns, not one.

What the Berzerkers need is a turn or two to get up the board relatively unmolested. The Bloodletters help with that. It's a win-win to roll with both.

 Fenris-77 wrote:
What the Berzerkers need is a turn or two to get up the board relatively unmolested. The Bloodletters help with that. It's a win-win to roll with both.

This is so true. I wonder if it would be viable to take a tooled-up Bloodthirster and run him up the board alongside some Rhinos full of Berzerkers. Then also drop a unit or two of Bloodletters to force some difficult target priority choices. If the Berzerkers are Renegades, they can advance and then make a rerollable charge (because IoW), plus they can potentially have psychic support like Warptime or Prescience.

 Fenris-77 wrote:
What the Berzerkers need is a turn or two to get up the board relatively unmolested. The Bloodletters help with that. It's a win-win to roll with both.

And bloodletters are great at clearing out the chaff. You don't want to waste your expensive berserkers killing chaff, and then have them shot off the board in the following turn.


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 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:
What the Berzerkers need is a turn or two to get up the board relatively unmolested. The Bloodletters help with that. It's a win-win to roll with both.

This is so true. I wonder if it would be viable to take a tooled-up Bloodthirster and run him up the board alongside some Rhinos full of Berzerkers. Then also drop a unit or two of Bloodletters to force some difficult target priority choices. If the Berzerkers are Renegades, they can advance and then make a rerollable charge (because IoW), plus they can potentially have psychic support like Warptime or Prescience.

If you are going to run the bloodthirster up the board, then bringing skarbrand might be better. He also doesn't allow enemy units to fall back.

Actually, that was changed. It's "roll 3d6, if it's equal to or greater than your leadership, you can't fall back".

Hey guys just a heads up - Reece and Geoff Robinson confirmed that Magnus and Morty deepstriking via the stratagem will get FAQ’d not to work when the first Daemons FAQ comes out post codex

I wonder if that restriction will be limited to just primarchs or LOWs or if it will include any CSM codex/FW daemon unit as well. I like my deepstriking blood slaughterers.

I’d expect them to throw the baby out with the bath water and make it Codex: daemons units only. Wouldn’t want to accidentally make a few stinkers viable by accident, now.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
I wonder if that restriction will be limited to just primarchs or LOWs or if it will include any CSM codex/FW daemon unit as well. I like my deepstriking blood slaughterers.

Could be a PL cap. There's a lot of things between 9PL and 20+ (wherein the the perceived abuse lies)

aye should of prob been
PL1-7 - 1cp
PL8-10 - 2cp
PL11+ - 3cp

imo thats a lot more balanced. Esp considering daemons is an army you can use to farm a lot of CP

 WindstormSCR wrote:

Thanks! nice to know I'm more or less on the right track.

No problem.

Not sure how many berzerkers in that blob, but there is something to be said for 30 bodies with a 5++. Berzerkers hit harder, but die easier.

That's for about an equal number of points, so 10 Bloodletters for 5 Zerkers. And as for Bloodletters being tougher, well that depends on the situation: Bloodletters have T3 so are already worse against S6/7 and their invul save is only better than Zerker's 3+ Vs AP-3+, and you'll generally find that your opponent won't waste their S8 AP-3 weapons against infantry. So, in general, Zerkers are more survivable.

Whoa, I’m looking at Index IA AM and it’s FAQ, and Renegades & Heretics get Mutant Conscripts with a 33% chance of T4 - and a non-deborked Commissar

Only reasons I can see to bother with Cultists:

- you need them or some HQs to have LEGION trait (don’t care, I main Word Bearers)
- you’re Iron Warriors or Black Legion exploiting a Fearless bubble (ditto)
- you want to make use of Tide of Traitors to outflank, recycle, and deny unit kill (ah, now this is good)
- you want to do something creative with other Stratagems (...meh)
- you want to Warptime a DG Cultist blob, carrying four Flamers, with enhanced Advance rolls, and force the enemy to ignore the threat or turn them into Poxwalkers (this is really good)

 lindsay40k wrote:
Whoa, I’m looking at Index IA AM and it’s FAQ, and Renegades & Heretics get Mutant Conscripts with a 33% chance of T4 - and a non-deborked Commissar

Only reasons I can see to bother with Cultists:

- you need them or some HQs to have LEGION trait (don’t care, I main Word Bearers)
- you’re Iron Warriors or Black Legion exploiting a Fearless bubble (ditto)
- you want to make use of Tide of Traitors to outflank, recycle, and deny unit kill (ah, now this is good)
- you want to do something creative with other Stratagems (...meh)
- you want to Warptime a DG Cultist blob, carrying four Flamers, with enhanced Advance rolls, and force the enemy to ignore the threat or turn them into Poxwalkers (this is really good)

IA never got a commissar Nerf? Then wouldn't guard still have access to IA commissars?

Lindsay meant to say the Renegade Enforcer never saw a nerf, So when an infantry unit takes a Morale test nearby, the Enforcer uses Baleful Judgement and that unit simply takes "D3 slain models" instead of the test. So a unit of 40 Renegade and Heretic Cultists is not a bad idea because you can still use Tide of Traitors on them. NO YOU CANNOT THEY ARE DIFFERENT UNITS MY BAD! Do note that they don't get a Legion Trait, though, but if you just want bubble wrap than this is pretty much the best way to get it, especially if your Trait wouldn't help the cultists much anyways (like Iron Warriors, or World Eaters).

IT'S THE BEST OF BOOOTH WOOORLDS!It's pretty good.


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I'm trying to justify 3 battalions: World Eaters, Khorne Daemons, and Renegades. I can pretty easily call this my Armageddon Army and it would be fluffy, plus it would make good use of a lot of my models. Renegades would cover the backfield, World Eaters mid-far field, and Daemons far field. There's a lot of board control potential with max Flesh Hounds, Bloodletter Bomb, Berzerkers, and min Cultists / Bloodletter units all supported by Characters (except the RnH units). I've got about 50 Cultists I want to shove in somewhere but I also want to use my Blood Slaughterers.

Hmm. I came up against a nasty Drones list today. I play quick 50 Power games; current list is Steed Lord with Murder Sword, Steed Sorcerer usually WT and DA, 20 Cultists, 20 Cultists, 20 Slaanesh melee CSMs with 2 melta, combi melta, Fist, 10 Slaanesh Havocs with missile launchers and combi-Flamer.

He has three units of 12 Drones, that took the wounds for three units of pathfinders, 2 stealth teams, and some support characters. And a crisis suit guy with loads of melta.

It started off okay. An exposed stealth team met EC and gave me first blood. Melee unit got a charge that avoid Overwatch... got beaten senseless. Bad rolls. A few surviving Cultists ToT’d into enemy deployment zone and nearly killed a pathfinder squad.

Tried a charge that focussed my forces on one flank, but it didn’t break through and I got surrounded and gunned down.

It seemed to be a really powerful list. I’m thinking about going back to Havocs spam, as I seem to come up against this and Eldar and Space Wolves and usually outrange them but lack the firepower to make good on it.

Looking at the new stuff, I’m thinking about this:

Word Bearers Nurgle Spearhead
Chaos Lord - MoK, Fist, melta, Khorne Advance & charge relic
10 Havocs - Missile Launchers, MoN
10 Havocs - Autocannons, MoN
10 Obliterators - MoN

Chaos Daemons Nurgle Patrol
Whatever a Herald’s called now, Miasma
20 Plaguebearers

Fortification Network
Feculant Gnarlmaw

Castle up around the FG for 1+ saves (yes I know 1’s always fail, it’s a useful shorthand, well it would be), threat of Oblits forces enemy to screen their rear, when I’m just going to drop them in my own lines and benefit from the Locus for mega dakka and a 0+ save (don’t start)

i didn't see FG gives +1 saves, it gives +2 cover pretty useless for demons, unless you wear some kind of armor.

Rules I saw said it boosts all NURGLE units?


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Ah bugger, yer right -.-


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...three units of Nurgle Obliterators?

Hello Fellow Chaos lords

I have a request, I am trying to get some ideas of a 2k competitive list that consist of Alpha legion and Iron warriors and would like to get some ideas from all of you. My current idea consist of:

battalion of Alpha legion with a Terminator lord, a sorcerer, 3 twenty man squads of cultists, 2 units of Obliterators, and 2x fire raptors

Outrider detachment with a jump pack lord, 3x Raptors with 2 plasma and champ sporting a melta ea.

Still have 40+ points left over.

thanks

A more important thing to consider now. With the new daemon codex and the new nifty deep strike strategems, is a full melee army (whether Khorne or Slanaash) now a viable option?

It hasn't been so far, but that was because horde bubble wrap and the power of shooting made melee armies run into major problems trying to get to the really juicy stuff at the back of an opponents army.

Now, we can deep strike in 60 bloodletters for 3 CP, who can do 120 attacks. That would likely clear away most chaff while remaining a substantial threat that still must be dealt with.

The rest of the melee army can then run up the board as per normal. The key thing is that 60 bloodletters barely cost 420 points. That's less than 20% of a 2000 point army. So, you can load the rest of your army with all sorts of other melee units, scary characters and such.

Another tactic I was thinking of was the multi wave bloodletter bomb. Imagine a 1st wave of 60 bloodletters to clear the chaff, with a second wave of another 60 blood letters waiting in deepstrike reserve to come in on the second turn. So, maybe the first wave of 60 bloodletters gets shot up and destroyed after clearing the chaff. But now, there is no longer any bubble wrap left to stop the second wave of 60 letters deep striking in to wreck havoc.

You need 120 bloodletters and 6 cp. But the whole thing only cost 840 points.

(opps, sorry, I thought bloodletters were 6 points). They are 7 points. edited my post. But it still works out to a viable melee strategy on less than half of your army points.

I think you'll see that 720pt plan a lot. You have enough points left to field tough targets and bubblewrap sufficient to survive an alpha strike.Against some armies, the Bloodletters could win the game all by themselves too. It;s pretty sexy.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Rules I saw said it boosts all NURGLE units?


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Ah bugger, yer right -.-


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...three units of Nurgle Obliterators?

obliterators are amazing with gnarl but you need to keep them in range then.

Use slimux to bring the gnarl forward and ds oblits in to meet them? Still don't want oblits to be assaulted.. nurgling screen?

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Use slimux to bring the gnarl forward and ds oblits in to meet them? Still don't want oblits to be assaulted.. nurgling screen?

yes that seem to be the only viable use of gnarls (and to see if points invested are worth), nurglings are a great screen for Ds units, i use them to screen my blightlords in my death guard list.

I'm retooling my LVO list post-Daemon codex rebalance - was running some changeling magnus BS. Is there validity now in using skarbrand with alpha legion berzerks? Skarbrand giving the +1 attack characteristic seems big (now that he is cheaper and can be deep struck) as it effectively gives each model 2 more attacks (1 each fighting phase).

orkswubwub wrote:
I'm retooling my LVO list post-Daemon codex rebalance - was running some changeling magnus BS. Is there validity now in using skarbrand with alpha legion berzerks? Skarbrand giving the +1 attack characteristic seems big (now that he is cheaper and can be deep struck) as it effectively gives each model 2 more attacks (1 each fighting phase).

Those Berzerkers are going to be out of range of Skarbrand very quickly with their pile in and consolidate moves, trust me. Why Berzerkers and not Bloodletters as the alpha strike? They have a much larger footprint for cheaper, and the 3D6 means you won't need Alpha Legion shenanigans at all. You can go pure Daemons if you wanted to drop the CSM all together.

Edit: I just realized I'm in the CSM thread and not the Daemons thread, lol. I would say go Skarbrand + Bloodletters OR CSM HQ's + Berzerkers, or a splash of one or the other when mixing. You definitely want to exploit as many auras as you can as much as you can. At the moment there isn't a lot of overlap between Berzerkers and Daemons, but your Daemons can be a great alpha strike for your Berzerker's to then roll up onto.

Yeah well the aura is for the unit and is 8 inches, so even if you pile in off a 9 inch drop, the unit will be in range. Also the +1 attack is literally twice as good on zerkers, and zerkers shred harder in melee. Thats the thought behind zerkers over bloodletters

orkswubwub wrote:
Yeah well the aura is for the unit and is 8 inches, so even if you pile in off a 9 inch drop, the unit will be in range. Also the +1 attack is literally twice as good on zerkers, and zerkers shred harder in melee. Thats the thought behind zerkers over bloodletters

Eh... It's doubled, but is that twice as good?

If the Zerkers have Chainswords, it's two S5 AP0 swings as compared to one S4 AP-3 swing. If you're up against, say, Terminators, that's an average of 4/27ths of a wound from the Zerkers, as compared to 2/9ths or 6/27ths of a wound from the Letters.

Well you could put the +1 attack on the battle axe right? So you could run Battle axe with chainsword. thats 2 extra attacks from the axe (1 per fight). Also to put the banner on letters you have to cost 2 CP total I think vs 1 for the alpha.

I am open to zerkers being worse at this or at least... not super great. But maybe someone can break it down a bit more.

Obviously too skarbrand in melee constantly but i was thinking it could be nifty to use his no morale on conga lined cultists too... Not as a main purpose but even FLG mentions skarbrand is a decent "support" type role... just thinking outside the box