Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I started a BA list about three months ago to play against my brother's orks. He has a pretty sizable ork army, so he's able to throw a few different types of ork lists at me; battlewagon spam, green tide, trukk spam, kan wall/walker lists, you name it. I have a lot of trouble building lists that are able to counter the options he has. I might take flamers, but end up having to face battlewagons or kans. Next game I'll take more meltas, but the boyz will overwhelm me. I don't like deep striking if I can avoid it, otherwise he has free reign to blow up my tanks.

Here's a sample list I might use, attempting to counter way too much at once:

HQ:
Epistolary w/Jump Pack, The Sanguine Sword, Unleash Rage (175 pts)

Troops:
10 Assault Marines w/2x Flamers, Sergeant w/Power Fist (225 pts)
10 Assault Marines w/2x Meltaguns, Sergeant w/Power Fist (235 pts)

Elites:
Furioso Dreadnought w/Blood Talons and Heavy Flamer (135 pts)
Furioso Dreadnought w/Blood Talons and Heavy Flamer (135 pts)
Chaplain w/Jump Pack, meltabombs (130 pts)

Fast Attack:
Baal Predator w/Assault Cannon and Bolter Sponsons (145 pts)
Baal Predator w/Flamestorm Cannon and Flamer Sponsons (140 pts)

Heavy Support:
Vindicator w/Extra Armor (160 pts)

Total: 1480, the final 20 are generally used up on various combi-weapons or meltabombs

The only way I seem to be able to win is if he makes some awful error in deployment or movement and I'm able to use my flamers or vindicator to their full effect. Otherwise, he's eventually able to tie up my dreadnoughts with deff dreads, my marines with dozens of orks, powerfist my predators and pick apart my army piecemeal.

Any tips?

I soften them up with deathwind launchers and more firing, then assault them

Try taking drop pods in unnesscesery places.

That helps take out the boys.

If he has got stuff behind his mobs, it's ...







Automatically Appended Next Post:
What are his tactics e.g. Does he mob you with boyz ...

Personally I would go Armour Spam

Keep you Lbby,

Drop the power Fists from your Assault Squads and replace with Power Weapons

Then 3 Vindies,

And 3 Baals with Heavy Bolters, your choice of FlameStorm or Assault Cannon.

You don't need a Fist against Orks, you need the extra Attact with Int to kill as many orks before the swing. Also the HEavy Bolters on the Baals, munch orks, and 3 Vindies throw enough Pie Plates around that you will weaken anything before they get into close combat.

The one change with your assault squad is I would have one flamer, and one Melta in each squad. Makes each squad multi-purpose.

Thanks for the replies, I've always liked Drop Pods and I think I might get a couple for my Furiosos. That ought to terrify him a bit. I'm definitely moving in the direction of Armour Spam as I buy more models, so I'm glad to see I'm slowly but surely doing the right thing.

Generally, his tactics include large mobs of boyz, and he's really keen on using 2 Deff Rollas and 2 Deff Dreads, and that's part of the problem for me. If I drop the Power Fists, I have to stay uncomfortably close to the dreads to use my Meltaguns and then get charged by it, with only grenades and maybe meltabombs to counter it. But I am interested in trying power weapons on my sergeants.

Another thing I've thought about is using one Furioso with a Magna-Grapple and Blood Claws. I figure the S8 hit from the magna grapple is great on its own, plus being able to pull into a meltagun and then charge with the Blood Claws would probably do some good damage. Unfortunately the magna-grapple generally fails to pull things in and leaves the melta out of range. Worth it, or are the ork-mowing Blood Talons too good to pass up?

Secondly, in a 1500 point game, are Terminator Assault Squads too expensive? I have 5 of them at the moment, three with lightning claws and 2 with Thunder Hammers. In larger games I'll throw them into a Stormraven and it's effective, but I feel like 200+ points and an Elites choice is a bit expensive without any shooting, and I'm afraid of deep strike mishaps. Like I said though, when they get into combat, they can take on almost anything he can throw at me.

Terminators at 1500 points is a lot. I wouldn't consider fielding them until the 1850 to 2000 point range. They are simply just to expensive and they always have to have a Chaplain/ Epistolary with them so it makes them even more expensive. Just avoid them for now.

The thing with your list is that its a hybrid between mechanized and jump packs. 20 Assault Marines isn't enough. You need at least 30 to 40 Assault Marines if you wanted to go with more of a traditional DoA or Jump Pack list. A Mechanized list will probably do better though simply because you have so many vehicles and if you are going in that direction I would point you to Razorbacks, and more Vindicators. Also you need Sanguinary Priests. Assault Marines with FNP are amazing against orks.

HQ:
Epistolary w/Jump Pack, The Sanguine Sword, Unleash Rage (175 pts)

Troops:
10 Assault Marines w/2x Flamers, Sergeant w/Power Fist (225 pts)
10 Assault Marines w/2x Meltaguns, Sergeant w/Power Fist (235 pts)

Elites:
Furioso Dreadnought w/Blood Talons and Heavy Flamer (135 pts)
Furioso Dreadnought w/Blood Talons and Heavy Flamer (135 pts)
Chaplain w/Jump Pack, meltabombs (130 pts)

Fast Attack:
Baal Predator w/Assault Cannon and Bolter Sponsons (145 pts)
Baal Predator w/Flamestorm Cannon and Flamer Sponsons (140 pts)

Heavy Support:
Vindicator w/Extra Armor (160 pts)

The primary failure of your army is a lack of focus. The troops and Librarian are fast and can DS, the dreads are slow and walk, the baals are fast and have to deploy or outflank, the vindicator is fast (ish) and has to deploy/drive. A good list has more focus to it. All driving (Mech) all DS (DOA/POD) all fast (a combination).

As for specific suggestions;
1. Drop the epistolary upgrade from your librarian, powers should typically be shield and unleashed rage (I think). This allows you to cast both powers each game turn, as you are only casting 1 power per PLAYER turn. UR in yours and Shield in the opponent's shooting phase. Sanguine sword isn't necessary when your sergeants have powerfists. If you are trying to assassinate an ork warboss in combat or something....don't, that's what guns are for.

2. Chaplain = unwise. They are a Death Company tool primarily. I see that you are likely buffing one assault squad with the chaplain and the other with the librarian. I would suggest pitching the chaplain and getting a sang priest or 2 with a jetpack. I would suggest 1, and run the assault squads mostly together so they both get FC and FnP. FnP will halve the damage you take from non-rokkit shooting and non-powerfist HtH combat attacks

3. Dreads. Perfect setup, but slow as dirt and do not mesh well with the rest of your army. I suggest dropping 1 and putting the other in a pod.

4. Vindicator, drop extra armor, keep it cheap.

These changes will give you almost 230 points, which I would suggest using to purchase a third large assault squad.

id vote for armor personally. against orks the baal pred and the stormraven will run through orks. fast and potms will help, personally 24" potsm tl plasma cannon worked well for me on horde fights.

i tend to avoid cc except on the lootas if they got any. id vote on dropping 5 assault marines in ech squad and a baal and go 2 storm ravens with troops + 1 with the lib + both with a dred. oh and the chaplan with one of the assault squads... damnit i need to do math, i have to edit this post way to much o.O

First off, don't take Blood Talons. I know, it just sounds like an Ork player trying to sabotage anyone going after fellow greenskins, but I'm honestly trying to help you here.

Yes, they might allow you to cut down swaths of boyz, but any decent Ork player is not going to give you that chance. They'll throw Dredds, Kans, Wagons, whatevers at you before that. However, if you have a DCCW or two, you'll be able to decently munch any armour thrown at you (still won't beat Deffdreds, but hey) and Boyz won't really be able to harm you, which lets you take down three or four a round, plus fearless wounds.

Whereas Blood Talons are less than useless against anything but large hordes of lightly armoured infantry.

Don't take termies against orks. In my experience they just can't lay down the number of attacks you need against orks, and with the amount of wounds an ork player can lay down, you're bound to roll some ones.

You have to drop pod the dreads. Drop podding heavy flamers are a scary prospect for an ork player (I speak from experience). Honestly, they're probably worse BEFORE they deep strike, you're always worrying where that template will be. Gives you a nice chance to play some mind games with your brother

My friend started palying BA not long ago and I've never been able to win an anihilation vs him since then. I tried both kan wall and green tide to no real good.

The trick is to abuse your Sanguinary priest. These gives FNP to all units that are 6'' from him at the beginning of the turn. That means you get 3+ armour save with 4+ save if you miss.

That means that the only real damage from the ork will come from shooting rokkits (BS2 and BS3, not much is going to happen, specially if you ahve some cover) and PKs (DCCW). Now something that I've found to be a pain to destroy is a Death Company with Lemartes and Mephiston. For 600 points, you can get a combination that will destroy his boyz in no time. Since you attack 1st and you ahve a better WS, you will destroy a lot fo orks on the 1st turn, even with a ratio of 3 orks for one DC, you will get out victorious.

Now just get some anti vehicle for the kans, put some PF in the DC, and you will give him a heck of a fight.

One thing you should watch out for is blast weapons. You cannot use a low ballistics skill to your advantage if he uses Battle wagons with weapons like Kil Kannons and normal Kannons. Most Ork weapons have a bad AP and terminators will be perfect for countering large swaths of slugga fire. As for speed freaks I cannot say much because I use tanks and Green Tide.

Knox wrote:One thing you should watch out for is blast weapons. You cannot use a low ballistics skill to your advantage if he uses Battle wagons with weapons like Kil Kannons and normal Kannons. Most Ork weapons have a bad AP and terminators will be perfect for countering large swaths of slugga fire. As for speed freaks I cannot say much because I use tanks and Green Tide.

Actually, from my experience, termies gets totally destroyed by shootas/sluggas because there so many shots/attacks coming at them that they en up rolling that . And for 40 per termy without special weapons, I can loose 6 boyz and it is still worth my money.

10 death company (CC weapon and pistol) with a chaplain and one or two power weapons = 30+ dead orks on the charge. Check out the math it adds up with all the re-rolls.

Hytanthas wrote:10 death company (CC weapon and pistol) with a chaplain and one or two power weapons = 30+ dead orks on the charge. Check out the math it adds up with all the re-rolls.

yeah, did that error once, never again, my freind killed 22 orks in one charge, I managed to kill one (PK, normal attacks were saved by his save or his FNP ) Then I failed my leadership (didnt get that ) and got wiped, lol.

An ork player should be as afraid to a 10 man DC with chaplain as we are of AIDS, lol. If your opponent isnt, show why his boyz should be afraid of it.

Serder wrote:
An ork player should be as afraid to a 10 man DC with chaplain as we are of AIDS, lol. If your opponent isnt, show why his boyz should be afraid of it.

Lol thats great. Its almost as good as spiders; natures reminder that we are all little girls.

The 10 man Death company in my secret weapon vs ork hordes because most ork players think that all Space Marines bow done to the superiority of the mob of boyz. They see you coming out to charge them and think your on some delusion of glory drug untill you wipe them out. But on this note of the 10 man death company a good ork commander will time the charges to prevent you from charging and charge in himself. 30 ork boyz on the charge=dead death company. So to avoid rage make sure you use a transport vehicle to move them around. I like 9 Death company + 1 chaplain in a Rhino, it helps time the charge.

Hytanthas wrote:

Serder wrote:
An ork player should be as afraid to a 10 man DC with chaplain as we are of AIDS, lol. If your opponent isnt, show why his boyz should be afraid of it.

Lol thats great. Its almost as good as spiders; natures reminder that we are all little girls.

The 10 man Death company in my secret weapon vs ork hordes because most ork players think that all Space Marines bow done to the superiority of the mob of boyz. They see you coming out to charge them and think your on some delusion of glory drug untill you wipe them out. But on this note of the 10 man death company a good ork commander will time the charges to prevent you from charging and charge in himself. 30 ork boyz on the charge=dead death company. So to avoid rage make sure you use a transport vehicle to move them around. I like 9 Death company + 1 chaplain in a Rhino, it helps time the charge.

Even when charging, you strike 1st, the only difference is that I get one more attack per model and you do not. My experience vs tehd eath company is to not get caught in CC with it with my boyz. And a good addition to the DC is mephiston, with the wings of sanguinus, he can be considered as jump infantry and he has fleet, so he has a 19'' to 24'' assault range. WHen mephiston strikes, only the PK will really do damage (specially if there was a priest with 6'' before he moved, he'll have FNP). Then since the mob is stuck in CC, the DC charges and wipes the mob with the help of mephiston.

The only way I counter that is to not go close to these units or try to get them one at a time.

Serder wrote:... And a good addition to the DC is mephiston, with the wings of sanguinus, he can be considered as jump infantry and he has fleet, so he has a 19'' to 24'' assault range. WHen mephiston strikes, only the PK will really do damage (specially if there was a priest with 6'' before he moved, he'll have FNP). Then since the mob is stuck in CC, the DC charges and wipes the mob with the help of mephiston.

The only way I counter that is to not go close to these units or try to get them one at a time.

Mephiston cant join a squad he is a single man unit. So if your opponent does this again shoot the crap out of him. and I thought that you had to be with in 6" to receive FNP so the priest would need to be close to the CC. (its in the FAQ)

Hytanthas wrote:

Mephiston cant join a squad he is a single man unit. So if your opponent does this again shoot the crap out of him. and I thought that you had to be with in 6" to receive FNP so the priest would need to be close to the CC?

I read the rule of the priest. The unit gets FNP if he is within 6 inches when the assault is launched.

And all mephiston wasnt in the DC, just near it, he uses wing of sanguinus to get close, fleet to run and charge, mephiston can hold a couple of turn vs 30 boyz. The DC dc had fleet too, so they run and charge the turn after and bingo. Do assaulting a DC is really hard because of that.

And that is just a technique I amproposing.

It also work well with the Sanguinor and the sanguinary guard or Dante

Good to see another Sons of Sanguinius player!

Basically, everything that was said is good, but one thing I would add is since BA have a lot of jump infantry, use that extra mobility to your advantage!

For example, last game I played against Serder up there, I deployed first and split up my army 50/50, with jump packs + mephiston on one side of the board and the foot slogging DC and support troops on the other side.
He then deployed most of his orks (3 squads IIRC) on the side of mephiston and the ASMs. First turn, I start jumping to the other side of the board to join up my high mobility units with the footsloggers. On turn 3, he was looking at a charge of 1300 pts into his ~400 right flank.


Edit 1: I fixed a word I butchered, edit 2: added this line

Serder wrote:I read the rule of the priest. The unit gets FNP if he is within 6 inches when the assault is launched.

I thought you were talking about before he used his jump move. But yes are right 6" before assault.

LambdaZero wrote:Good to see another Sons of Sanguinius player!

Basically, everything that was said is good, but one thing I would add is since BA have a lot of jump infantry, use that extra mobility to your advantage!

For example, last game I played against Serder up there, I deployed first and split up my army 50/50, with jump packs + mephiston on one side of the board and the foot slogging DC and support troops on the other side.
He then deployed most of his orks (3 squads IIRC) on the side of mephiston and the ASMs. First turn, I start jumping to the other side of the board to join up my high mobility units with the footsloggers. On turn 3, he was looking at a charge of 1300 pts into his ~400 right flank.


Edit 1: I fixed a word I butchered, edit 2: added this line

Although I look like a tau player I too love my Blood Angels and all 3000 points of them.