Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Grotesques vs Incubi
My Incubi have not been gettign it done, plain and simple. My hammer unit isn't hammering. They are supposed to be my "Go-To" unit. Instead they have let me down in countless ways lately and I sehlfed them. So lately I have ditched my retinue of Incubi with my Archon in favor of 4 Grotesques. I have to say, I am quite pleased with the results.

Benefits of Grotesques

1. T5 vs T3
2. Makes my Archon T5 vs T3
3. More attacks base and charge vs 1 less attack for each with Incubi
4. Grant FnP vs None from Incubi
5. More wounds vs 1 W each for Incubi
6. Next to ZERO Insta-gibs vs PWs and PFs galore wipe Incubi
7. If the need arises, legitimate threat against vehicles vs rare occasions w/ Incubi
8. S5 (6 w/FC) vs S4
9. Wound on 2's or 3's mostly vs wounding on 3's or 4's
10. Liqufyer vs Bloodstone (Way cheaper and better upgrade... Not a reach either b/c I put one on the Grotesques often, whereas no one uses the Bloodstone)
11. Can absorb heavy amounts of incoming firing vs T3 w/ a 3+
12. The "Uber" upgrade with Urien to make S6 base vs Klaveix, or no upgrade like that
13. Are a threat to MC's vs wounding on 6's

Benefits of Incubi

1. I5 vs I4(BUT with FC can be 5 for the Grots!)
2. Power Weapon attacks vs multiple high str atks
3. Cheaper points wise--- 22pts vs 35pts
4. Can fit more in a transport--- 10 vs 4 (Need IC)
5. Dont need an IC to operate per se vs could go beserk
6. High LD--- 8 or 9? vs 3 or 4? (Can't remember)
7. Fleet vs No fleet
8. WS 5 vs WS 4

It is pretty late, but I like to think I got most if not all of them for each squad. I think the winner is Grotesques. Even in larger point games you can keep the same squad as you would in lower games, whereas with Incubi you almost need to add more to make up for the better units you fight. Making your Archon T5 is HUGE! It is so awesome seeing someone other than me having to roll 5's to wound me. Plus! Grotesques have such good wound saturation. Yes, I know, 6+ save is weak, but FnP is awesome and your Archon or SC starts with it.

I know Grotesques main weakness is that the IC has to run with them. But, honestly, I don't think i would run Incubi without one either. Granted you can, but I almost would never. The PW attacks are great, but the saves you make the other person roll outweigh the PW attacks you kill with. Against something like Terminators, Incubi forcign the 5+ or 3+ (w/ SS) is nice opposed to that 2+ with the Grots. But, they will roll 1's. Grotesques will survive the return blows, Incubi will not.

If my analysis is way off and I'm just hallucinating let me know. But, I think i am going to start running the Grotesques instead of the Incubi. I run them like this:

Archon w/ SF, AG, HWG, PGL- 140
x4 Grots in Raider w/ FF- 210 (Liqufyer is optional is I have the points)

Throw a Haemon in there for FC off the bat. S6 I5 W3 A4 on the charge. Love it.

-DElder

Grots only make your Archon effectively T5 from shooting, not in combat where you are using this unit.

Ummm they will make him T5 unless they direct all of their attacks at him personally and not the squad... The majority of the squad is T5 so he is as well

well if they direct them at the squad then no wounds can be put on him for saves. IE. if they attack him then he is not T5, if they attack the squad he is still not T5, it simply doesn't matter as no wounds would be able to be put on him. The IC and the squad of grots are treated as 2 different units for the purposes of allocating attacks, if they attack the grots then the IC's squad (ie the single model) would never use his toughness or any toughness as he wouldn't even get hit.

IC's are treated as a separate unit in melee.

Thing is, they both do very different things: Incubi chew up MEQ and anything with FnP, Grots are just a hammer to hit unarmored targets with.

Here's a simulation of 4 Grots with two pain tokens (190 for the Grots and a Haemonculus, assume the Haemonculus is not in combat for some reason since the simulator I wrote doesn't handle complex units yet) against a TAC Squad (170 points), a unit that is demonstrably terrible in CC:

It deals one wound, which is factored into the Marines' attacks as they'd be striking at I4 instead of the FC'd Grots' I5.

Here's seven Incubi (154 points) against that same squad (170):

It inflicts seven wounds, while the Marines inflict none. The Marines would then take an average of two more wounds to No Retreat! on failing the sweeping advance check after they either try to withdraw or fail their morale check.

And here's nine incubi (198) against a base terminator squad (200):

And just for the fun of it, here's that original four Grot two pain token squad against those terminators:

They tie, when they have the charge and Furious Charge.
Here's the subsequent assault phase:



Against GEQ, wyches are the better deal, while also working alright against MEQ. They're also better against vehicles with their haywire grenades.


For reference, the simulator that generated those results is a short script I wrote, which I won't release on account of it using an old version of python and being extremely obtuse to use, and which generates results by simulating the dice rolls for a unit's attacks and their target's saves one hundred thousand times, then spitting out an average number of times each result occurred (this is because I'm too lazy to figure out the proper probability equations; I thought I had at one point, but they spat out insane results like 99% chance of inflicting 30 wounds out of 36 attacks, when the actual figure would be around ten or so...).

Incubi are better, Grotesques are god awful since in order for them to be semi reliable you need to throw a Haemo in there for LD. Thats another 60 points.

Trueborn are 10x better than both...

Grotesque models are god awful, it looks like they are dancing when they make their way down the field.

By the way...FNP isn't taken vs PW.

Grotesques still die from that, even vs normal attacks you only have a 4+ save (FNP).

@Revackey

You would almost ALWAYS throw an IC in with the Incubi as well so that point is moot.

The Trueborn point is just irrelevant since this thread doesnt talk about them at all. So again another moot point.

The Grotesques models being God awful have no bearing on how they perform on the tabletop, so another moot point.

Yes, I know FnP isn't taken against PWs. But, having 3 wounds mean they don't die right away, it means they take a wound, just like the Incubi, except the Incubi die. And Grotesques have a 6+ save regularly. Its not much, but it is a save, so they something more than just a 4+ FnP. Get the facts straight. So yet again, more moot points.

I disagree, I don't think Incubi need to be taken with an IC, if your taking an archon with them your making a huge pricey beatstick inside an AV 10 transport. A moot point.

Throwing it out there that they are better.

It would certainly effect people buying them. A moot point.

Having 3 wounds means little inside in AV 10 transport, where a simple bolter shot can take you down, then a hail of melta/ap2- comes in your face.


I can guarentee you, at the start of the battle, you tell your opponent this is the raider with the grotesques in it... that will be the first raider down, and since you don't need to put to many shots into an AV 10 Opentoped vehicle. Ones your grots are out, they are stuck dancing their way across the boards, accomplishing nothing.

With incubi, your not paying for a transport, hq, and pricey dancers, your paying for 5 MEQ killers in a venom, if they are die your only losing 165 points. Whereas your losing 250 points from the grotesques, and that isn't counting upgrades.

I stick by my point, they are useless.

Food for thought... Fleet... Absent in the Grotesques.


*Just did out the combat in vassal 10 times for each strike, 5 Incubi took down 4 Grotesques and a Haemo in 3 rounds of combat, losing only two from their squad. Thats without them taking their LD 5 (From - modifier)

Incubi don't need to be taken with an IC, but they almost always are. They need the LD boost too. Granted not as much as the Grotesques, but LD8, not very reliable.

Having 3 Wounds with FnP opposed to 1 wound without FnP means little? Odd I would think that means a lot... I was unaware that the vehicles Incubi ride in are so much more powerful the the one's Grotesques ride in. Oh wait, they are all AV10 Open Topped vehicles, thats right.

You guarentee that my Grotesques will be shot down first? Ok, and the Incubi won't be? Pretty sure that argument goes both ways.

Yes you are paying more points for the Grots (See OP for the breakdown) but they don't die if their transport blows up. They hoof it just like the Incubi would. Again, nothing you are saying benefits the Incubi more. The Grotesques beenfit more from being outside their transport than the Incubi since they can eat the incoming firing and not die. The Incubi will die from the incoming fire. So if they both walk (or dance) Grotesques live, Incubi don't.

Stick to your moot points, they are the only useless things so far posted. Str 5 T5 3W FnP units are not useless. Must not have read the OP.

"7. Fleet vs No fleet"

You're right i must have missed that Fleet argument, I must not have mentioned that up top or anything, should have definately put that in my OP. Plus when it comes down to it, Fleet isn't the end all be all. Good to have, not terribly important if you don't. Don't sit here and say its the biggest difference or some BS like that, its not that big of a difference. It definately helps yes, but not huge.

That haemon must not have been using anything and you must have rolled pretty well to do that. Good for you, you did a test on the computer instead of a board. Congrats.

I think you're forgetting that Incubi are S4, since their weapon gives them +1S. They're also WS5, meaning they're hitting MEQ on 3+ instead of 4+. You can cram at most four Grots into a raider, for a total of 12 wounds with 6+ and FnP, and 16 S6 attacks on the charge, at I5 and with WS4, compared to 10 wounds with 3+ and FnP if you give them a pain token, and 30 S4 power weapon attacks on the charge, at I6 with WS5. Incubi also have fleet, meaning they're going to be a lot easier to get into combat.

Against MEQ, Incubi are hands down the best option. Against GEQ, Wyches or Hellions are, and both of those can be troops.

If you really want something other than Incubi, look at an Archon Court: for similar cost to a full unit of Incubi, you can get 35 S5 attacks on the charge, 20 at I6 and 15 at I4, you have three shardcarbines, 11 FnP wounds, 6 of which have 5+ saves in front of them, and an Sd6 APd6 flamer template, in addition to a few 2+ poisoned attacks. All in a fleet package that fits in a raider, for 205 points before the raider.

Apparently I need to reinstate everything that I said for you.

(The poster above is correct in every way.)

The funny thing is that now your saying Grotesques will need a LD boost again after the Haemo, because last time I checked. Their LD 8 as well.

Vehicles are the same, I am saying what is your opponent going to shoot at, the 250 point vehicle or the 165 point vehicle?

Like the above poster said, kill one unit and theres your FNP you seem to love oh so much. Not with a 3+ instead of a 6+, means a little?

The problem is when Grotesques drop they have a 12" threat range, when incubi drop they have an 18" threat range.

Tat isn't that great, that makes marines need 4's and 5's, and with only a 6+/4+ your gonna be taking plenty of wounds.

Fleet gives you a potential 14" charge range. With no fleet your moving 7". That is a very helpful boost.

Haemons are not meant to put points into, what are you going to give them a CCW upgrade? Because I would gladly have upgraded my Incubi as well, then kill him outright first. A computer is more reliable, all dice are perfect in it's mind, on a board they are not. This was simulating Incubi vs Grotesques, why would I do it on the board?

If you go by Dash's book, you take liquifiers on Haemonculi, and leave them in the raider when you drop off whatever they passed their token too, then fly that around dropping S4 APd6 flamers on anything available, I believe it is (or at least, I seem to recall him talking about doing that at one point or another, possibly in connection to his "wych coven" list template, and it seems like a solid plan). A shattershard is also a good addition, I think. Might even be worth tossing torment grenades and a shockprow onto the raider, to further screw with your targets.

I want to like Grots, and see a way to make them work, but I just don't think there's anything they're really good against, and their increased durability doesn't make up for it. Dark Eldar are a glass cannon, and all their tough units sacrifice both hitting power and mobility, the two defining traits of their race, yet still aren't all that tough when it comes down to it, on account of their bad armor saves and reliance on FnP. In either shooting or assault, Dark Eldar can come up with something able to outmatch anything else point for point; in mobility there's nothing that can compare to meched up DE; but in durability? We've got wracks, grots, and the two MC's, and out of that only the Cronos is really good, and only because it buffs up the rest of your army, like Haemonculi.

I ran 4 grots versus an equal points worth of Incubi (6, eight points less than the Grots), and it went a little worse for the Incubi than revackey's test, but they still won out in the end, though it was close. When comparing a full raider of Incubi against a full raider of Grots with haemonculi, they wipe them in three phases.

Grotesques... suck. For the points, yes, they can be hard as nails to crack. However, with GH having str 10 TH's, thunderwolf calv, and even mephiston, the chances of a tesque unit living and actually dealing some damage is slim. Unless you run Urien to make them str 6... Either way, though, Grotesques are pretty suckage.

Incubi... are ok. The fact they're high initiative, have a decent weapon skill, and str 4+ makes them dominate most units. Their only negative is they do diddly to armor. I never run them, but a guy I once faced used them... blew the raider, drove my raven up, dropped my dread, and clobbered the squad easily. So for the points I'd almost always rather run trueborn or bloodbrides.

Looks like some of the responses are from those who never used them - the answer lies in the design of the list really as both need to have the lists tailored to some degree to support them.

One item I noticed with the Grotesques is that the list I use them in is not the same for one with Incubi - when I use Grotesques, they are usually in a list designed with Haemonculi and usually Urien as well so a lot of the time the Grotesques I use are fearless, have plenty of shooting power and the squad being mostly T5. These attributes are not present in Incubi lists so I think its an apples and oranges comparison until you give us more information in the list that they would be used in.

One particular benefit I enjoy most of all over the Incubi squad is that the Grotesque squad has more flexibility in the targets they can assault. I commonly use my Grotesque squads to punk armored targets that have a AV10 rear - for one reason or another I have destroyed more vindicators with my Grotesques than I do with any other anti-armor unit. That kind of flexibility isn't really realized unless you have used them on the playing field so they are overlooked by just looking at a codex.

So I would easily say that Grotesques can be a better choice than Incubi but it would depend on the list they are used in.

I honestly don't think these two should even be compared. They fill two separate niches.

Incubi excel at slaughtering 'nilla marines and any other standard infantry and should avoid units w/ multiple power weapons like the plague. That shouldn't be an issue since we're faster than everyone else and can dictate which combats we want to fight.

Grots on the other hand, simply due to the number of wounds, high T would almost serve as a tarpit with more attacks and should be thrown at things with power weapons to kill them by attrition and absorb damage over the course of 2 or 3 turns.

Both suck, take Bloodbrides or regular Wyches. Save your elite slots for Trueborn.

As stated above, Incubi and Grotesques serve two different roles. Incubi are there to wipe out durable shooting units and targets of opportunity (Long Fangs, Devastators, Tac Squads, etc.). Grotesques are more in the tarpit role and beating up hordes since they take little damage in return. Grots can also serve a secondary role assaulting vehicles and protecting a WWP carrier through T5/FNP/wound allocation.

NEITHER should be used against elite CC troops; you should have shooting for them or wyches to tarpit.

The question of Incubi vs. Grotesques, then, is what role do you need? Do you need a fast dagger unit to strike dangerous shooting infantry? Then use Incubi. Or do you need a tough bodyguard/tarpit unit? Then use Grotesques.

When using Grotesques I task them to take out armor. DE biggest weakness in mass armor, and Grotesques can help with than with multiple Str 6 attacks on the charge.

I had shelved my Incubi when I realized that their power weapon goodness in a raider almost never made it to combat (1st target the opponent shoots at.) I have found a great use for them in my webway list. A large unit coming out of the WWP can threaten most units. They work great in conjuction with large wyche units - the wyches take out armor with Haywire grenades and the Incubi ensure that heavy hitting assault squads don't want to come anywhere near the wyches.

Kwi wrote:Brilliance.

I was going to post a longer post, but than I realized brilliance was already being spouted all over this thread.
Incubi and Grotesques have different optimal targets for who they assault, it makes a world of difference when comparing them, and when comparing them you're obligated to discuss how you want to use them. As the OP seems to not like a Haem with his Incubi, and desires to assault power weapon heavy units, I think, for him, Grots are a superior choice to Incubi, and possibly Wyches as well.

Targets with power weapons already have a counter in wyches or bloodbrides. both are about a third the price, negating the three wounds the grots have, have more than twice as many attacks on the charge for the points, and don't rely on FnP for a save, as they've got that nice 4++ in melee, more than making up for their lower T. Against any form of MEQ, power weapons or no, incubi are still the best bet. Even an Archon court is better than grotesques, throwing down almost twice as many S5 attacks as grots get S6 (if they even have FC (likely, because of the need for an escort, which will probably be a haemonculus), and manage to get the charge (less likely, since they lack fleet), only a single less FnP wound, and fleet, meaning they're almost always getting the charge, as opposed to the lumbering grots.

Wyches/bloodbrides also come with assault grenades, something both grots and the Archon court lack.

Though the HQ leading them could be given a PGL to negate the lack of grenade problem - same cure as for the Incubi.

That means an Archon, though. Which means they're sacrificing starting with FC, unless you happen to roll a six on combat drugs, and remembered to give the Archon combat drugs.

There are a variety of ways you could start them out, depending on what you want the final result to be. If them lacking assault grenades is a big issue I was pointing out how it could be overcome.

It also doesn't mean "sacrificing" FC if you want that as well. Grots in a Raider with an Arcon who joins the assault and a Haemy who stays behind to flame could give you both FC and Assault grenades.

By the same logic taking Wyches/Bloodbrides with your Archon "sacrifices" them having FNP - it's not true, it just means you have to take steps to provide them FNP if you want it.

I think, to some extent, the role you are desiring Incubi to play could be better served by another unit in your army. Based on your original post, it seems that you are using them as an Elite killer type of unit - something to counter the Terminators or other Elite choices in your opponents army.

To be blunt, this is not their optimal use. One of the core ideas behind the DE strategy is to never fight fair. To this end Incubi are best used to absolutely crush any MEQ unit that does not possess the tools to fight back effectively. This means primarily the basic troops or fast attack choices of other armies, but never Elites who have a potential of surviving the initial assault enough to even the outcome of the assault.

I think you will find that using a Wych squad to tie up these high cost Elites for 2-3 turns in assault is a much better alternative to simply trying to wipe the squad out. Not only is such an engagement cost effective, it effectively removes the Elite squad from the game for a long period of time while they struggle to deal with the amazing survivability of Wyches. In addition, if done effectively the assault can provide other units of yours cover while you move into position.

Grotesques, like Wyches, are a tarpit unit of sorts for Elite infantry. I think this is why you find that they perform better. If you were to look at Incubi as a troop killer, you will see that they fulfill that role very, very admirably.

Also, I agree, in a competitive mindset, Trueborn are the best Elites choice.

I use ten grots with a haemon attached. Yes it is expensive(My list is very much Wych cult, but I use lelith, three haemons, and the grots) but I like to keep the grots in researve, and have them leap out of my web way portals. granted I play pretty differently, the Grots work better in larger numbers, and when the leap out of the web way they smash a squad and become fearless. As far as how they look, I love em! They are fun models!