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Ahoy guys.

Well, it seems I've finally played enough Dawn of War to actually want to try out the tabletop game itself, and I'm coming to you for suggestions on what army to pick. I've bought and read a lot of codices (Imperial Guard, Tyranids, Black Templars, Chaos Space Marines, Space Marines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves), but I just can't narrow it down.

I'd say the hobby aspect is just as important as the gameplay aspect to me. And in 'hobby' I include things like fluff, background, etc.

I immediately though I'd be a BA player, because I like assault. The local GW guy let me dink around with a BA army in an intro game, hoping to make a sale, and I learned that I don't really like the one-trick ponyness of a pure assault army. I know BA can be played other ways, but I dislike all the 5-man units in Razorbacks that I see on the net. I'm not that worried about competitiveness. BA also lack the Big Damn Hero HQ character which is irrationally important to me.

IG were the other end of the spectrum - really static and shooty, and painting that many models would be murder. They also obviously lack a Big Damn Hero hard-as-nails HQ. I did like playing them the one time I did, but I think I'll save them for if I ever start a second army.

CSM and SM seem very similar, just kinda...I dunno, bland, I guess. Moreso SM, but CSM seems like it would be hard to make a monotheist army that didn't suck, and that's a drawback.

Dark Angels are apparently ancient and not very good, plus I don't like the all-bike or all-terminator thing.

Space Wolves have the Big Damn Hero HQ unit in spades - is there anything that beats a Thunderlord? - but everyone is playing them, and they feel very Flavor of the Year. While I like the barbarian feel, not wild about all the wolf stuff. Especially Thunderwolves, which are apparently their only decent, hard-hitting CC unit. That's a problem.

Tyranids...eh. I know I could never get into them. Not a fan of the fluff.

I like everything about the Black Templars except the lack of the awesomesauce HQ unit. I know, I know, the best approach is combined arms, not point-sinking into one uberunit, but for whatever reason, I wouldn't like to have to keep my leader running away from the other guy's leader, if the other guy's leader was a Thunderlord or that Grey Knight Draigo guy. Other than that, they can play shooty, they can play CC, and they can play in between.

So I guess what I'm really looking for is a good mix of shooting and CC, powerful HQs, moderate to small model count, and non-FOTM. Tough to please, huh? Any suggestions?

Play Demons of Chaos, You can combine different demon armies, so that you can have different combos of "shooty" and CC

Daemons? I'd completely overlooked them because I've never seen them played and almost nobody around here even mentions them. I assumed there was a reason for that.

Well, they ain't easy to play. If you're not scared of a challenge, though, they're good fun, very characterful, and offer great painting opportunities.

Oh, and welcome to the hobby!

Thank you.

Any other suggestions aside from Daemons?

My advice, go SM. The codex is setup so you can take anyone of a number of hard as nails HQ units that allow you to do spicy things with your 'vanilla' army. You can have up to 6 dreads if that is your thing. You can have lots of sternguard as troops with Kantor. You have the most freedom with standard marines and you can paint up your own chapter or some of the lesser played chapters that have some cool back stories.

I recommend as a first time player you collect at least a small force of Marines. I've heard a lot of good and bad about both BA and SW, so look into them. Personally I recommend the Black Templars, they break from the "norm" as it were in SM eyes, although their codex is pretty old.
In the end it's your choice, but that's my two pennies.

I thought about SM, it just seems so...blah. I know it's the baseline for all the other codices, but that shows. It doesn't really have a lot of character to it. Plus, it's only Calgar and the Imperial Fist guy who have Eternal Warrior. Maybe that's not as important as I think it is, but with being able to give every Space Wolf Lord Eternal Warrior, and being able to put an Adamantine Mantle on Black Templar Marshals...I don't know. Now that I know what it does, I'd feel like I was missing something if I didn't have it, you know?

Space Wolves and Grey Knights are probably your best bet, from the sounds of it. Can't avoid the flavour of the month thing there, though, as they both have reps of being OP and overused codices. They're still both pretty cool, and highly competitive, fun armies.

BA allow you to take a large number of special and elite character choices and they still have access to most of the regular units from C: SM so you can make a more "traditional" BA army.

C:CSM does let you build mono god armies as well as unaligned or just "all the units I want from any god" army. Their characters are a bit meh, but DP's are one of the better units in the game and come with a large number of permutations (though they generally come with wings to give them mobility to keep up with mech). They also give a good chance to convert and scratch build (check out my gallery for my various DP's).

htj wrote:Space Wolves and Grey Knights are probably your best bet, from the sounds of it. Can't avoid the flavour of the month thing there, though, as they both have reps of being OP and overused codices. They're still both pretty cool, and highly competitive, fun armies.

Yeah. :( And I'd probably go with either one of them if they had options for successor chapters. I've already got a paint scheme in mind, it just doesn't fit with anything currently established. So when I read that you can come up with your own chapter, I figured that'd work fine - until I learned that some of the "variant" codices don't allow successors.

I've heard that you used to be able to "ally in" Grey Knights or SoB - does that still work?

West wrote:

htj wrote:Space Wolves and Grey Knights are probably your best bet, from the sounds of it. Can't avoid the flavour of the month thing there, though, as they both have reps of being OP and overused codices. They're still both pretty cool, and highly competitive, fun armies.

Yeah. :( And I'd probably go with either one of them if they had options for successor chapters. I've already got a paint scheme in mind, it just doesn't fit with anything currently established. So when I read that you can come up with your own chapter, I figured that'd work fine - until I learned that some of the "variant" codices don't allow successors.

Fluff-wise all the varient chapters have sucessors other than SW's (who had a couple, but they all got destroyed off the top of my head) and GK's.

However, you can use the rules from any codex and just play that your chapter "counts as" the army from that codex. My SM use the BA codex (as it suits my playstyle) but are, fluff wise, descended from the Salamander chapter.

West wrote:

htj wrote:Space Wolves and Grey Knights are probably your best bet, from the sounds of it. Can't avoid the flavour of the month thing there, though, as they both have reps of being OP and overused codices. They're still both pretty cool, and highly competitive, fun armies.

Yeah. :( And I'd probably go with either one of them if they had options for successor chapters. I've already got a paint scheme in mind, it just doesn't fit with anything currently established. So when I read that you can come up with your own chapter, I figured that'd work fine - until I learned that some of the "variant" codices don't allow successors.

I've heard that you used to be able to "ally in" Grey Knights or SoB - does that still work?

Sort of, but rumour has it that a new Sisters dex is coming out this winter, and the smart money is on the allying rules being removed.

SilverMK2 wrote:

West wrote:

htj wrote:Space Wolves and Grey Knights are probably your best bet, from the sounds of it. Can't avoid the flavour of the month thing there, though, as they both have reps of being OP and overused codices. They're still both pretty cool, and highly competitive, fun armies.

Yeah. :( And I'd probably go with either one of them if they had options for successor chapters. I've already got a paint scheme in mind, it just doesn't fit with anything currently established. So when I read that you can come up with your own chapter, I figured that'd work fine - until I learned that some of the "variant" codices don't allow successors.

Fluff-wise all the varient chapters have sucessors other than SW's (who had a couple, but they all got destroyed off the top of my head) and GK's.

However, you can use the rules from any codex and just play that your chapter "counts as" the army from that codex. My SM use the BA codex (as it suits my playstyle) but are, fluff wise, descended from the Salamander chapter.

I've thought about that after I'd seen it suggested elsewhere. I think it would be hard to do with SW and GK - nobody else rides wolves into battle like Bear Cavalry, and nobody else is all-psyker and wielding Nemesis force weapons.

I'd be perfectly content with BT if they were just a little more topheavy and had some power in their HQs. Oh well. Maybe just wait for the new BT book, whenever that comes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

htj wrote:

West wrote:

htj wrote:Space Wolves and Grey Knights are probably your best bet, from the sounds of it. Can't avoid the flavour of the month thing there, though, as they both have reps of being OP and overused codices. They're still both pretty cool, and highly competitive, fun armies.

Yeah. :( And I'd probably go with either one of them if they had options for successor chapters. I've already got a paint scheme in mind, it just doesn't fit with anything currently established. So when I read that you can come up with your own chapter, I figured that'd work fine - until I learned that some of the "variant" codices don't allow successors.

I've heard that you used to be able to "ally in" Grey Knights or SoB - does that still work?

Sort of, but rumour has it that a new Sisters dex is coming out this winter, and the smart money is on the allying rules being removed.

Ah, so having that Drago Grey Knight guy leading an army from the BT codex - NOT actual BTs, I know they hate psykers - wouldn't really work then.

Go chaos. Good assault troops, pretty decent ranged, and Kharn or Abbadon are damn good HQ's. I did counts as for both for my renegade army, and the modelling aspect of doing chaos is great, lots more conversion opportunities than the weakling loyalists. Plus, eventually, when we get our codex redone, it'll be face rocking time.

Ah, that wouldn't have flown, no, as they allies bit has been removed in the new GK codex. SoB have still got it only because they've got an older codex. It's the rules absence from the new GK book that makes it likely that it won't be in the new SoB book.

With your desire for a mix of shooting and assault, moderate amount of models, and big bad HQs, i would actually go GKs.


they are, currently, the flavor of the month, but that will change very quickly.

when the Necron and BT codices finally get released sometime in the next year or so the hype will die down around GKs and those who are in it for the long haul(like myself), for better or for worse, in sickness and in health, with Matt or with Jervis. as long as we both shall live. we are here to stay. it just so happens that GKs are in the spot light right now.


you can only be accused of being a FOTM if you are always switching armies with every new codex release. as a 1st timer, you have diplomatic immunity to such accusations.

Guard. They run the gauntlet from best gunline to best assault horde, and are tough as nails every step of the way (a big part of why they're the best in both). Ironically, from what I understand BA are primarily used for their ridiculous access to shooting, despite ostensibly being assault-focused.

Guard are really the polar opposite of Dark Eldar, who can lay down more fire than them, and usually outassault them as Guard hordes are rarer than they should be, but are fast and paper thin instead of ponderous and tough as nails. MEQ are just poor versions of what Guard do, in an ironic twist that's actually accurate to the fluff.

Grey Templar wrote:With your desire for a mix of shooting and assault, moderate amount of models, and big bad HQs, i would actually go GKs.


they are, currently, the flavor of the month, but that will change very quickly.

when the Necron and BT codices finally get released sometime in the next year or so the hype will die down around GKs and those who are in it for the long haul(like myself), for better or for worse, in sickness and in health, with Matt or with Jervis. as long as we both shall live. we are here to stay. it just so happens that GKs are in the spot light right now.


you can only be accused of being a FOTM if you are always switching armies with every new codex release. as a 1st timer, you have diplomatic immunity to such accusations.

Yes, GKs are a very strong contender. I just can't pull the ripcord on an all-psyker army of guys who get mindwiped every time they do anything, ever. From a fluff point of view, not overly fond of them. From a gameplay point of view, they seem pretty perfect.

I figured out I can make a ridiculously expensive BT Marshal that's a poor man's version of a lot of the big, nasty HQs. He'll suck, of course, but at least he won't die to Powerfists. My only concern is that the BT codex could get changed around so drastically that the BT will play differently in the future.

I play blood Angels. There are may ways to do an assault list and they are quite fun. They can be gimiky since everyone uses Death Company but if you draw away from that and use more of the armour they actually become extremly fun. I have not used an Razorback list but that is once again gimiky. .

It should be noted that the most popular current Guard list, mechvets, are rather low in model count, and form an entire army protected by AV12, with a couple of melta shots out the hatch, and a multilaser on the hull. They don't really have any big HQs, though company commanders can pack in some upgrades that let them punch tanks to death, and a normal human walking up to a tank and punching it until it explodes is far more awesome than any filthy mutant in ten feet of power armor.

Just go Orks. All assault Fast as hel and a good deal of numbers.

Ok if he wants big bad HQs and few models just go Tyranid and fill the board with monsters creatures! Lol

I play against BA all the time. I kinda fail to see that you dismiss Dante or Mephisty as not awesomesause HQ choices.

Screw the razorback spam, keep the jump packs and run Dante, Sang Guard and DS your army in, along with a Land Raider or two and a thunderchicken with a DC Dread with cheater claws.

BlkTom wrote:I play against BA all the time. I kinda fail to see that you dismiss Dante or Mephisty as not awesomesause HQ choices.

Screw the razorback spam, keep the jump packs and run Dante, Sang Guard and DS your army in, along with a Land Raider or two and a thunderchicken with a DC Dread with cheater claws.

I dismiss Dante because he doesn't seem all that special in terms of his own stats; he can do good things for a list, but he's not really an awesome combat monster. Maybe I should dump the whole idea of wanting an awesome combat monster HQ, but I likes what I likes. Or at least I think I do.

It was actually a Deep-Striking BA list that I got to play with, and while it was pretty fun, I can see it getting old fast. That's why I called it a one-trick pony.

I don't know; how bad would it be to Counts-As Grey Knights?

Ok; I play Orks, 'Wolves, The Tau and the Grey Knights.

Orks: Fun as all hell, but they are a but of a one-horse pony. Without question the most entertaining army with legitimate humour eking throughout the codex. (It literally says you cannot have a Warboss on a bike with Mega-Armour because "He would probably fall off a lot")

Wolves: Fun and competitive. They are a good army with access to 4 HQ slots, versus 2 everyone is limited to. They also have the best Heavy Support choice in 5th and a dirt cheap and hard as nails Troops choice. I just find them a bit...dry.

The Tau: Damn hard to play. My favourite army, but I lost my first 3 months worth of games. They are unpredictable, shooty and fast, but fragile as paper and lacking anything for hand-to-hand combat.

Grey Knights: Barring a soon-to-be FAQS/ERRATA, they are either OP or fairly weak. Up close they will kill just 'bout anything, but once you past about 24" you are in trouble.

Sounds like to me you are a space wolf through and through. You want a bad ass HQ monster. You can build a wolf lord to do what ever you want. Don't want to be instagibbed then get saga of the bear (eternal warrior). Want to rack up a tally of kills that Karn would be envious of then use saga of the warrior born.

Grey knight have a little bit of everything in the codex

You want a big "hero" HQ? There are a number of special character to pick from, and even the regular HQ's are pretty beasty as well.

you want a "character" HQ? There are all of the inquisitors that can be build in a number of ways.

They have very strong TEQ deathstars.
They have MSU MEQ or large Squads of MEQ that can work well.
The henchmen give you some interesting specialists with GEQ stats.
You have light tanks, heavy tanks, and fast flying tanks.
You even have Walkers and Monstrous Creatures as well.


The grey knights are interesting from a fluff point of view as well. (at least I think so)

On the one hand they are one of the closest things 40K has to good guys. They are on the front lines of the battle against the most "Evil" force in the milky way. They have a "white knight" feel to them.

On the other hand, they are ruthless bastards who will do whatever is needed to get the job done. They kill off entire populations of planets, kill any guardsmen who work with them, and mind wipe most of the Marines who work with them. They are not afraid to kill a few sisters of battle or thousands of helpless refugees.


You have everything from the most OP of heros (maybe a little over the top), to the inquisitors/henchmen who are just people.

West wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:With your desire for a mix of shooting and assault, moderate amount of models, and big bad HQs, i would actually go GKs.


they are, currently, the flavor of the month, but that will change very quickly.

when the Necron and BT codices finally get released sometime in the next year or so the hype will die down around GKs and those who are in it for the long haul(like myself), for better or for worse, in sickness and in health, with Matt or with Jervis. as long as we both shall live. we are here to stay. it just so happens that GKs are in the spot light right now.


you can only be accused of being a FOTM if you are always switching armies with every new codex release. as a 1st timer, you have diplomatic immunity to such accusations.

Yes, GKs are a very strong contender. I just can't pull the ripcord on an all-psyker army of guys who get mindwiped every time they do anything, ever. From a fluff point of view, not overly fond of them. From a gameplay point of view, they seem pretty perfect.

I figured out I can make a ridiculously expensive BT Marshal that's a poor man's version of a lot of the big, nasty HQs. He'll suck, of course, but at least he won't die to Powerfists. My only concern is that the BT codex could get changed around so drastically that the BT will play differently in the future.

they don't get mindwiped once they are GKs.

the initiates are mindwiped so they forget their entire life up to that point, but once they are GKs they are incorruptable and don't need mind wipes.


and the Gk codex is a good Counts As codex.

make up your own army and just use the GK rules.

Grey Templar wrote:
and the Gk codex is a good Counts As codex.

make up your own army and just use the GK rules.

I may just. Trying to figure out how to justify the all-psyker army.