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Many criticise GW and all they do. In many ways I agree with them, the price rises are just getting ridiculous and they keep culminating meaning that we all struggle to pay the cost for our enjoyment (paying £40 for a Valkyrie is just too far IMHO).

That said, they take the criticism too far. We just have to stop and remember that they are a company trying to make a profit in a time of financial crisis...oil prices are rising which means trouble for them.
Most of all we must remember that they have given us a game that we love and nice miniatures to play it with. That should not be overlooked.
Okay, I'm done.

Blah blah blah, dead horse, blah blah blah xhibit, blah blah blah.

We done here?

Edited by Waaagh_Gonads. Remember dakka rule 1 please.

Imperial Monkey wrote:We just have to stop and remember that they are a company trying to make a profit in a time of financial crisis...oil prices are rising which means trouble for them.

And as we all know, enhanced secrecy about upcoming releases and making sure that not even your staff know what's coming until 1 week before it's out has everything to do with oil prices.


Or not.

Imperial Monkey wrote:That said, they take the criticism too far. We just have to stop and remember that they are a company trying to make a profit in a time of financial crisis...oil prices are rising which means trouble for them.

Boo. fething. Hoo.

I'm so sick and tired of this "GW is a business, leave them aloooone!" crap. You're right, GW is a business, and a business has to give it's customers what they want if they want to keep doing business. If they don't they lose sales, and if they lose enough sales, then it's bye bye business!

Maybe our expectations and resulting complaints when said expectations aren't met aren't always fair, maybe some of us really are impossible to please. You can't make everyone happy, but it seems GW isn't even trying, and if anything, is going out of their way to piss off as many people as possible. Hence all the complaints and rants that you're complaining and ranting about (because as we all know that will make it all go away and won't in any way make things worse!).

As for oil prices, that means trouble for everyone. I refuse to pity them for something that millions of people and hundreds of other companies are having to bend over and deal with, myself included. Actually, some would argue that this is the kind of time when you really shouldn't be raising prices (or making it ludicrously difficult for half the globe to buy your stuff at all, and then insult the people who carry your product), and instead offer incentives for people to keep buying your product as opposed to saving the money (and gas) staying home and finding something else to do. Everyone else is having sales, GW is the only one trying to gouge you for even more money, while also offering an inferior product in the form of "Finecast"!

And let me guess, now you're gonna try to tell me that I owe them someth-

Imperial Monkey wrote:
Most of all we must remember that they have given us a game that we love and nice miniatures to play it with. That should not be overlooked.
Okay, I'm done.

...all of my HATE!

I don't owe GW crap. The fact that they made a game I play means virtually nothing, other than the fact that I paid them for a service. At any moment I want I can stop doing that and buy models from someone else. If anything, GW should remember that, and do whatever it can to hold my interest, because I don't have any obligation to keep giving GW my money.



But yeah. Needless to say I disagree with your point of view. I think you have every right to get on your soapbox, same as everyone else has a right to post thread after thread about GW's many WTF's, but I don't agree with this idea that buying a couple of books and models from GW means that I'm either not allowed to complain, or that any complaints I have are invalid and that I should just shut up and deal with it because GW "gave me" so much happiness with their shoddy rules and overpriced plastic (and now melt-o-resin).

I haven't seen that potatoes gonna potate before..

heh.

I think dakka should have a whinging forum section and an apologist forum section and on april fools you switch the titles.

^^^^^+1 to this......

I, like many others have said my piece. Can't we just let it lie?
It's getting old......

May I add that it gets really, really boring going through a rumour or news thread, and rather than finding a discussion, you get soapboxing by the usual characters about how this new thing they haven't actually seen in the flesh is clearly rubbish blah blah blah effing blah.

Whilst stating your opinion is fine, please don't decry the less negative opinions of others, just because you're all special and that because you don't like it. It's childish.

I agree that GW should do more to help online retailers and the Australia embargo is riduculous.

But as for the prices, I still think they're decent for what you get. I went round every miniature stand at UK Games Expo looking for something cheaper & better. I came away with a box of 40K Ork Nobz becausethey were the cheapest models - and opening up the box, wow, what a great set of minis with loads of options. I'm sticking with Games Workshop.

Sidstyler wrote:

Imperial Monkey wrote:That said, they take the criticism too far. We just have to stop and remember that they are a company trying to make a profit in a time of financial crisis...oil prices are rising which means trouble for them.

Boo. fething. Hoo.

I'm so sick and tired of this "GW is a business, leave them aloooone!" crap. You're right, GW is a business, and a business has to give it's customers what they want if they want to keep doing business. If they don't they lose sales, and if they lose enough sales, then it's bye bye business!

Maybe our expectations and resulting complaints when said expectations aren't met aren't always fair, maybe some of us really are impossible to please. You can't make everyone happy, but it seems GW isn't even trying, and if anything, is going out of their way to piss off as many people as possible. Hence all the complaints and rants that you're complaining and ranting about (because as we all know that will make it all go away and won't in any way make things worse!).

As for oil prices, that means trouble for everyone. I refuse to pity them for something that millions of people and hundreds of other companies are having to bend over and deal with, myself included. Actually, some would argue that this is the kind of time when you really shouldn't be raising prices (or making it ludicrously difficult for half the globe to buy your stuff at all, and then insult the people who carry your product), and instead offer incentives for people to keep buying your product as opposed to saving the money (and gas) staying home and finding something else to do. Everyone else is having sales, GW is the only one trying to gouge you for even more money, while also offering an inferior product in the form of "Finecast"!

And let me guess, now you're gonna try to tell me that I owe them someth-

Imperial Monkey wrote:
Most of all we must remember that they have given us a game that we love and nice miniatures to play it with. That should not be overlooked.
Okay, I'm done.

...all of my HATE!

I don't owe GW crap. The fact that they made a game I play means virtually nothing, other than the fact that I paid them for a service. At any moment I want I can stop doing that and buy models from someone else. If anything, GW should remember that, and do whatever it can to hold my interest, because I don't have any obligation to keep giving GW my money.



But yeah. Needless to say I disagree with your point of view. I think you have every right to get on your soapbox, same as everyone else has a right to post thread after thread about GW's many WTF's, but I don't agree with this idea that buying a couple of books and models from GW means that I'm either not allowed to complain, or that any complaints I have are invalid and that I should just shut up and deal with it because GW "gave me" so much happiness with their shoddy rules and overpriced plastic (and now melt-o-resin).

It's called buy your stuff from Ebay!

Ugavine wrote:I agree that GW should do more to help online retailers and the Australia embargo is riduculous.

They did it to support the Bricks and Mortar stores, as it is these outlets that help to drive the hobby. A website has likely never recruited anyone into the store.

Whilst it would have been nice for them to adjust their prices to reflect more modern exchange rates, they didn't. It's their call, and it sucks to be in the antipodes. But I'm not, so in the nicest possible way 'feth them'.

Support the bricks and mortar stores? With all due respect, that's balls.
The Stores were around LONG before the Internet was readily accessible.
If anything, GW should be embracing Internet shopping more. Surely its a simple equation: More access to the product worldwide=more sales=a ton more cash.
GW stopping sales to the Antipodes is just another wayward action of a company that has lost the fething plot.

Oh, and way to go with the casual xenophobia by the way

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:Support the bricks and mortar stores? With all due respect, that's balls.
The Stores were around LONG before the Internet was readily accessible.
If anything, GW should be embracing Internet shopping more. Surely its a simple equation: More access to the product worldwide=more sales=a ton more cash.
GW stopping sales to the Antipodes is just another wayward action of a company that has lost the fething plot.
Oh, and way to go with the casual xenophobia by the way

So wait. I'm confused.

I thought we wanted GW to support the B&M stores more? Isn't that an argument that always gets tossed about with examples of "Evil GW opening up storefronts and driving the locals out after they establish the community"?

But there's an example of GW trying to actually support the B&M stores--and you're saying they need to embrace Internet shopping more?

*mindblown*

GW needs to support my bonus room gaming club more! They've lost the fething plot!

I never said that I wanted GW to support the B&M stores at all.
The B&M stores are there to get people in from the street, right? Have a chat/hard sell, maybe a demo game to get them hooked...
But not everyone can keep going back to the store to get what they need. In which case, if they want to buy something else then the easiest way is the Interweb. By stopping retailers from shipping out to Oz/NZ they are making a rod for thier own back.
Oh sure, it may not affect us in the States or in Europe, but what's stopping them from placing an embargo on UK sellers to stop them shipping to,say China. Which, by the by, is one of the fastest growing economy's in the world?
Think about it, an untapped resource of a billion people. That's an awful lot of potential cash.
GW are failing alot of people with thier obscure business decisions... And confusing the others that are left.

That is just bad for business. The stores will always be there, GW HAVE to support them, but they cannot rely on the stores alone.

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:I never said that I wanted GW to support the B&M stores at all.
The B&M stores are there to get people in from the street, right? Have a chat/hard sell, maybe a demo game to get them hooked...

You realize that "the B&M stores" aren't necessarily GW's stores alone, aka the "hard sellers".

It also includes what many consider "FLGSes".

But not everyone can keep going back to the store to get what they need. In which case, if they want to buy something else then the easiest way is the Interweb. By stopping retailers from shipping out to Oz/NZ they are making a rod for their own back.

So you're saying there's no online retailers within Oz/NZ who sell within that vicinity?

The problem was an attempt to fix something that wasn't being caused strictly by online sales. Online sales were a symptom of the problem, but not the malady itself. The malady was GW's pricing structure and their inability to actually stay afoot of the currency exchange issues.

Oh sure, it may not affect us in the States or in Europe, but what's stopping them from placing an embargo on UK sellers to stop them shipping to,say China. Which, by the by, is one of the fastest growing economy's in the world?
Think about it, an untapped resource of a billion people. That's an awful lot of potential cash.

Actually, they are stopping retailers in the UK from shipping to the US and China.

Like I said above, there's an issue afoot and it's not simply online sales. They're trying to defuse a lit fuse by setting it on fire and burning the fuse before the bomb blows.

GW are failing alot of people with thier obscure business decisions... And confusing the others that are left.

There's no "confusing" about it. This was a thinly veiled attempt to force Antipodean customers to buy either from GW Direct in the UK/US(which I'm not convinced of entirely, it's more likely they just futzed it up and didn't think to put regional restrictions in place on their own website) or start going to the independent retailers who've reported lots of lost sales to Maelstrom/Wayland and who've complained to GW about such.

That is just bad for business. The stores will always be there, GW HAVE to support them, but they cannot rely on the stores alone.

This is a case where I'm going to have to disagree with you. They, as it stands, do not rely on the stores alone. They do have online sales and retailers who sell online.
Look at The Warstore, for example. They're not simply an online retailer who stocks GW. They're an entire big whole operation, with a relatively nice gaming space and who run events constantly for their community using the revenue from their online sales.

Mr Mystery wrote:They did it to support the Bricks and Mortar stores

No. They did it to reap as much short-term profit from a favourable exchange rate.

And GWUK and GWUS still sell to the Southern Hemisphere even though no one else can, making them naught but hypocrites. Greedy hypocrites.

watch and listen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isXNJMhBteY&feature=player_embedded

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:They did it to support the Bricks and Mortar stores

No. They did it to reap as much short-term profit from a favourable exchange rate.

That's part of it, but it also shuts up their retailers down under from complaining tot hem about Maelstrom and the like taking their sales.

And GWUK and GWUS still sell to the Southern Hemisphere even though no one else can, making them naught but hypocrites. Greedy hypocrites.

Just as a FYI, I tried to order from GWUK here in the US this week and my order confirmation came from GWUS not GWUK.

So it may be that you can order from them, but your order will be processed by whatever "region" you fall under.

I'm still saying it might be simple stupidity on their part. After all, who knew you Antipodeans were clever enough to lie on your region?

The last point you made (sorry, using an iPhone and the quote thing is hard to do), being in the UK an FLGS is much harder to find than in the US.
Every time I read a post by a person based on the US about thier local game shop being a place where they can buy wargame mini's and generally chat about all things hobby, I get a large twinge of jealousy!
If you want to do that here, you need to be lucky and actually HAVE an FLGS in the vicinity. And this is the biggest problem.
For most of us in the UK the only B&M stores are GW official stores, and this means being subjected to the hard sell by trained monkeys who treat everyone that goes into the store as novices/people who wouldn't know a Space Marine if it sat on them.

Thus the Internet is the only real viable means for people to actually buy GW mini's and enjoy the experience. I avoid the stores like the plague, for reasons stated above. And if I have to go into one, I'll keep my head down, buy what I need and leave. Quickly.
When I started playing GW games the staff actually cared about the games and were genuine about thier excitement for the mini's and the GW hobby in general. Basically, they were gamers first and salespersons second.
Within the last 3-4 years thou, as the company became more cut-throat and greedy, so did the staff. Now, instead of being a relaxing way to spend a few hours chatting to like minded people and painting your new mini's, a visit to the local GW store is more akin to going for verruca treatment. Painful, cold and costly.
If that is the future for GW, then forget it......

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:The last point you made (sorry, using an iPhone and the quote thing is hard to do), being in the UK an FLGS is much harder to find than in the US.
Every time I read a post by a person based on the US about thier local game shop being a place where they can buy wargame mini's and generally chat about all things hobby, I get a large twinge of jealousy!
If you want to do that here, you need to be lucky and actually HAVE an FLGS in the vicinity. And this is the biggest problem.
For most of us in the UK the only B&M stores are GW official stores, and this means being subjected to the hard sell by trained monkeys who treat everyone that goes into the store as novices/people who wouldn't know a Space Marine if it sat on them.

You wouldn't be that jealous if you realized that for every person with an awesome FLGS, their only local independent is a place crowded with people who hail from the Land Hygeine Forgot or constantly filled with people of questionable veracity when it comes to gaming, etc.

Not every Local Gaming Store is a Friendly one.

Thus the Internet is the only real viable means for people to actually buy GW mini's and enjoy the experience. I avoid the stores like the plague, for reasons stated above. And if I have to go into one, I'll keep my head down, buy what I need and leave. Quickly.
When I started playing GW games the staff actually cared about the games and were genuine about thier excitement for the mini's and the GW hobby in general. Basically, they were gamers first and salespersons second.

You see this in a lot of markets though. The GameStop near me used to be a fantastic place to spend a half hour talking with the staff about whatever games we were excited for, etc. Then they started implementing sales figures and targets and draconian measures for employees--and they've become places with a high turnover in employees.

GW has become the same. It's a sad fact but it happens.

Within the last 3-4 years thou, as the company became more cut-throat and greedy, so did the staff. Now, instead of being a relaxing way to spend a few hours chatting to like minded people and painting your new mini's, a visit to the local GW store is more akin to going for verruca treatment. Painful, cold and costly.
If that is the future for GW, then forget it......

The last 3-4 years?

Try the last 10.

I do have to admit though, I always had a bit of annoyance at the guys who'd come in and sit at the painting tables at my old FLGS and never actually do any painting. They're there for people to paint, not for you to rest your wobbley self on.

Mr Mystery wrote:[They did it to support the Bricks and Mortar stores, as it is these outlets that help to drive the hobby. A website has likely never recruited anyone into the store.

Whilst it would have been nice for them to adjust their prices to reflect more modern exchange rates, they didn't. It's their call, and it sucks to be in the antipodes. But I'm not, so in the nicest possible way 'feth them'.

lol, I laughed so hard when I read this, seriously if that was the case they wouldn't see to online retailers at all, hard fact of the matter is the Dollar is stronger than it was and GW are taking advantage of the exchange rate and making more money of Australians, why should someone in Australia pay what 75% more the same service as someone in the UK? I certainly can't think of a valid reason, its hardly as if GW doesn't have a high profit margin on its goods as it is! I do really dislike people with this attitude, not because they are bad people but they really are the cause of yearly price rises, I wonder how many of you would continue to shop at the same foodstore if they raised their prices like this? Me I look for another store that will provide me with the same product at a cheaper price only heading to the expensive one if hey have some damn good deals.

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:The last point you made (sorry, using an iPhone and the quote thing is hard to do), being in the UK an FLGS is much harder to find than in the US.
Every time I read a post by a person based on the US about thier local game shop being a place where they can buy wargame mini's and generally chat about all things hobby, I get a large twinge of jealousy!
If you want to do that here, you need to be lucky and actually HAVE an FLGS in the vicinity. And this is the biggest problem.
For most of us in the UK the only B&M stores are GW official stores, and this means being subjected to the hard sell by trained monkeys who treat everyone that goes into the store as novices/people who wouldn't know a Space Marine if it sat on them.

Not all the stores are like that, I guess I am lucky that the staff are nice enough in my local GW but I have certainly been to a few like that...

sarpedons-right-hand wrote: Since the mid 90's when the company went public, GW became more cut-throat and greedy, so did the staff. Now, instead of being a relaxing way to spend a few hours chatting to like minded people and painting your new mini's, a visit to the local GW store is more akin to going for verruca treatment. Painful, cold and costly.
If that is the future for GW, then forget it......

I injected some more accurate truth into that statement.

I love it that only a handful of people like me saw this coming over a decade ago.

Nice to see others finally wake up, even if it took a decade and a half.

Here's the thing that gets my goat thou. A GW store really should not be like a 'Gamestop' or in the case of the UK a 'Currys' or 'PC World'.
I always saw a GW store as a place to not only buy the mini's but also to meet like minded people, arrange games, chat about what's coming up (impossible now) and generally enjoy and embrace the hobby.

If that were still the case, then I'm pretty sure GW would not be facing such a huge Internet backlash. As it is, they are. And the GW official stores are just one part of a huge out of control company that can only see the £ signs and not the people who embrace and spread the hobby around.

It hurts me, sure it does. Why try and deny that. I have given GW the best part of twenty years of my disposable income. I'm what should be classed as a valid customer. Instead I'm getting pissed on from a very great height. As are our Oz and NZ cousins.

Not acceptable GW.....

Sidstyler wrote:
I don't owe GW crap. The fact that they made a game I play means virtually nothing, other than the fact that I paid them for a service. At any moment I want I can stop doing that and buy models from someone else. If anything, GW should remember that, and do whatever it can to hold my interest, because I don't have any obligation to keep giving GW my money.

Thats the point exactly. GW didnt give anyone anything, people paid GW for products. You pay for everything...rules, codexes, magazines, minis, etc. Nothing was given for free, therefor there is no "debt" owed by the customer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sarpedons-right-hand wrote: I have given GW the best part of twenty years of my disposable income. I'm what should be classed as a valid customer. Instead I'm getting pissed on from a very great height. As are our Oz and NZ cousins.

IMO that may be the worst part of GW policy. Every successful business knows that you need to get return business as well as creating new customers. I would say its the people who think GW needs gratitude for creating 40k that feeds that attitude.


There is simply no valid excuse at all for the treatment of the NZ/Oz folks. I cant believe any of them do business with GW anymore.

@mad4minis.... I completely 100% agree with you there dude.
I just wish the GW apologists would wake up and see that it's not just the ridiculous price hikes that are the problem.
The way the company is conducting itself, from embargo's to almost a total blackout on new releases..... It all adds up to company that is ready to implode. And it will be messy......

Kanluwen wrote:Look at The Warstore, for example. They're not simply an online retailer who stocks GW. They're an entire big whole operation, with a relatively nice gaming space and who run events constantly for their community using the revenue from their online sales.

I can switch "The Warstore" for "Maelstrom Games" here, and the sentence still works perfectly. Not so sure about Wayland, but Maelstrom have invested a hell of a lot in giving a great gaming venue. A lot of the revenue will have come from their internet sales.

Dysartes wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Look at The Warstore, for example. They're not simply an online retailer who stocks GW. They're an entire big whole operation, with a relatively nice gaming space and who run events constantly for their community using the revenue from their online sales.

I can switch "The Warstore" for "Maelstrom Games" here, and the sentence still works perfectly. Not so sure about Wayland, but Maelstrom have invested a hell of a lot in giving a great gaming venue. A lot of the revenue will have come from their internet sales.

And I agree wholeheartedly with that assessment. Everything I've seen about Maelstrom Games impresses me, as does The Warstore which I went and visited myself on a trip to NY.

But in either case, when they deal outside of their immediate community they can be said to be 'benefiting' from a market they did not actually create themselves nor do they really do anything to 'grow' the community in those markets.

Mark Wells screwed the pooch big time in calling Maelstrom a "free loader", no doubt. But it doesn't change that they were profiting where the LGSes which provided gaming space and the like were being screwed over.

Are you seeing what I'm trying to say there?

I should also add that yes, of course GW will benefit more from the sales being done by the LGSes in Australia. But (and it's a big but, I cannot lie) GW does have a responsibility to their independent retailers and their own shops in those areas.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:They did it to support the Bricks and Mortar stores

No. They did it to reap as much short-term profit from a favourable exchange rate.

And GWUK and GWUS still sell to the Southern Hemisphere even though no one else can, making them naught but hypocrites. Greedy hypocrites.

Harsh, but probably true.

But 90% of online retailers nowadays ARE Bricks & Mortar stores.
And Games Workshop need to understand that customers LIKE these FLGS stores. Customers LIKE certain online stores such as Miniwargaming or TheWarStore - I've certainly got a small group of online sellers I keep going back to. By upsetting the store that gets passed onto the customers who, by a slightly longer route, are still GW customers.

As I said, I don't have an issue with prices or quality (not bought any Finewhatever yet), but customer relations is a big problem for Games Workshop. They also need to understand that people love their intellectual property and don't want to steal it, so stop being so heavy handed, go after the real offenders and not the fans.

You do realise that I wanna slap Kirby almost as much as that kid? .........

Good call thou, love a healthy dose of sarcasm

Take a look at the video letter to GW

Some of us have been saying for ages that prices rises for the sake of price rises is "A BAD thing"
Matthew of Miniwargaming explained why this is so very succinctly.

Next person to state the blindingly obvious that, "GW is a business and need to make a profit" ought to be dunked in a vat of Parum da Ork and thrown into a cage of rabid skunks.
PLEASE no more stating the obvious.