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With the Blood Angles, Dark Eldar, and more importantly Grey Knight codex released and part of the metagame, I am trying to evaluate where the chaos codex sits amongst the power armor codex's. I would like to play chaos competitively but I don't really see them turning up at many events. It is easy to pick out a couple of examples of why "the codex sucks" (dreads, the points cost of some things) but overall I really think it is decent. It has things that make it uniquely chaos which I really like. There isn't a "nob biker" power build with the book, but that shouldn't be used as a barometer for the destructive/effectiveness of the codex.

So is chaos still competitive (tournament competitive) or is it now a matter of waiting till the next chaos codex?

Chaos Space Marines have a few overpriced units and some underwhelming choices comparative to other codices (but them again, there are fail units in most codices anyway). There are a few good choices and the rest are what you need to fill in your army.

Daemon Prices are a good investment. Eternal warrior, cheap ability to give them 12" movement from wings. Lots of different options to give them.

Obliterators usually useful, as they can take on many roles.

Chaos Spawns and Possessed CSMs are pretty much bleh. Havocs are expensive, though not out of the realm of taking. The named CSM HQs are also meh unless you are willing to spend the points.

Either way, it all depends on how you use the tools you give yourself. There are plenty of veteran players who can make a CSM codex work for them.

Well, chosen are great 4x special weapons for the win.

And CSM are good, 2x special weapons is good aswell.

CSM are good for spamming special weapons in rhino's, and having 2 Monstrous creaturs as HQ's with Lash of Submission (kinkiy).

The codex is showing its age but is still competitive. Remember, CSM won Philadelphia Ard boyz finals this past year. Its still a solid codex.

If you are going to play competative chaos you have a "few" choices. Two sorcere with lash is a good start. Lash is easily one of the best powers ever in the game. so many ways it can be used and by using it with IC you can embed in a unit, it makes it much harder to kill the bearer of lash than if you were to put it on a demon prince.

All of the special troops are viable. If you run the math hammer they all can hold their own. Deathgaurd make a great objective holder. Berzerkers OWN melee and Noise marines can outshoot anyone. 1000 sons have their uses but i wouldnt recomend them.

Never take a dread. If you have to take elite slots the terminator are pretty awsome for the price, especially with lots of combi weapon goodness.

Oblits, Land raider, and Las/AC are pretty much comparable to what the loyalists get. I know that by using lash with a vindicator or a bunch of oblits, you can really do some nasty things.

In summary i think that chaos can be very competative, its just the builds are not terribly unique as you are limited in what you can choose.

Idk how competitive it is, simply because its been out for so long that everyone and their mother knows its trick and weaknesses. However for some reason it is still doing well. Now i haven't played against too many BA lists (for sure no good ones), and no DE or Gk lists. So I can't coment on how CSM stack up in competition. All I know is that its still a very versitile army that has lots of tricks. All I hope for is a new one soon, just cause its always fun to have new toys.

It still can be competitive, but to do so we have to pretty much toss theme out the window and take a Chaos Undecided circus, and there's a number of units that are total crap. For the most part a competitive Chaos list is going to be dreadfully cookie-cutter and not really inspiring to play as or against.

A determined enough player can make it work. Against some of the new 5th edition books, you might get a hard counter or two but CSM hasn’t reached “Necrons” level unplayable yet.

You have to remember that since the book was costed using 4th edition point pricing, a lot of the units/upgrades are quite expensive. You have to take a very streamlined (and boring) list to make it work. A streamlined CSM list usually looks like troops in rhinos, supported by dual winged DPS and termicide/obliterators. This is probably one of the best 5th edition friendly lists you can build but you’ll have a hard counter against long fang spam and IG.

Interesting replies. Renewing my faith in CSM. For troops is it best to take a mix everything or standard CSM?

The Grundel wrote:Interesting replies. Renewing my faith in CSM. For troops is it best to take a mix everything or standard CSM?

Depends on what you want them to do.

If you see your CSMs doing alot of assaulting, taking 'zerkers.
If you want units with staying power, take Plague Marines.
Ranged support, Noise Marines.

For all purpose tasks and cheapness, take regular CSMs. 15 points a model with PA, Space Marine stat line, and 2 attacks than to a CC weapon and bolt pistol? Yes please.

this was before some of the newer dexs and i have yet to play them but i took 33rd at nova with chaos demons and won my 2 extra games i lost to a space wolf army that got tourny ace but if tertiary and secondary where flopped id have won and a plasma spam guard list with most meq armys will have an uphill battle vs but my opponent still said i did far better then expected. But if used right it can be competative but your limmited to what units you can use and be competative.

my list was

2 lash princes

3 6 ,man pm squads with meltas in rhinos with combi meltas

2 berzerker squads one with 8 1with 9 men 8 with pw and mbs 9 with pf both with combi melta rhinos

and 7 oblits in 1 3 man and 2 2 man squads

yes i should have used more plasma but as i fought 3 guard players an ork player that i tabled and csm and space wolfs it only mattered in 2 games and not too much vs csm as it was monster mash

In my local metagame, I win a lot more than I lose. Of course, I'm playing the stereotypical min-max CSM tourney build, which unfortunately allows very little variation.

2x Lash Sorcerors (chilling w/ PM squads)
4x Plague Marine squads in Rhinos, 3x double melta, 1x double plasma
8 Berzerkers w/ Skull Champ in Rhino
3x3 Oblits

It really does a number on opponents who have zero psychic defense if they don't play VERY...VERY well. It's also a nasty hard counter to the Space Puppy 15x ML Long Fangs + Thunderwolf Cav lists. Lash the Twolf Cav away and laugh as the Long Fangs' AP3 missiles bounce off of your 2+ save Oblits.

It can be competitive, but not very flexible. 2 DPs, PMs, and obliterators are what you see 80% of the time. There are some truly underwhelming options so the best units in each slot are cherry picked and you end up with cookie cutter lists. There are CSM players that make original lists and succeed with them, but mostly you don't see a lot of deviation.

It's getting lower and lower (especially against new armies like BA, GK and DE), but It still stomps face out of a lot of other armies. FNP troops with defensive grenades is a real boon, no doubt about it. As are flying monstrous creatures that can re-roll all failed rolls in a turn, or push you close to other dangerous units.

Khorne spamming is lovely. For you. Not so much your opponent.

I played a khrone list in 3E and 4E and really didn't like how it played.

I'm thinking a nurgle army is probably the way to go for me on this one.

CSM is a decent army still but usually I dont even have to ask my opponent for a list.. They have such limited options that the list almost plays itself and makes its own list. The issue is every new book has new meta-defense against them. Most BA armies have a hood and GK will have super aegis so your princes will be at LD6 for lash

It's not bad, and some builds will do well against a good number of enemy set-ups.

In my experience, one of the big issues with the CSM dex is that it can't keep up with the MSU strategy that many top armies employ. When facing Razorback spam (especially BA Razorspam), DE trueblasters in venoms and IG meltavets, you ARE likely going to run out of shots before the enemy runs out of dangerous stuff, no matter how well you prioritize.

And you'll have even less ability to dent his motor pool after an average round of enemy fire, since you have relatively fewer slots to get lascannons, autocannons and so on. I wonder if making Predators take either heavy or Fast Attack slots would help.

You still have access to some of the best troops in the game. Certainly sternguard and the like surpass them but they are not troops. Nothing beats sitting 7 T5 nurgle cultists with FNP sitting in cover.