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Hey again mates,

I hope everyone is going good.

We had a nice fantasy game yesterday Warriors of chaos vs Vampire Counts.

We had a situation when Chaos Knights got charged by some Blood Knights and some Grave guards as well from the flank. Blood Knight's Castellan issued a challenge and the Chaos Lord who was in the same unit with the Chaos Knights Accepted (the castellans HAS to issue a challenge if he can) so my question is simple.

If a challenge is issued can the rest of the models fight? (i think not as far as i know)
But what about the Grave Guards in the same close combat? Can they strike against the Chaos Knights? I tried to read again on the rulebook on the challenges but i couldnt find anything saying not more attacks are made but i'm not sure if i have missed something.

Thank you for your time,

Theofilos

Any models in the combat can fight, but none can allocate attacks against the models IN the challenge except the other challenger. So in your example, the Blood Knights, Grave Guard, and Chaos Knights would all be able to fight, but the Castellan would only be able to attack and be attacked by the Chaos Lord, and vice-versa.

If the Castellan was for some reason the only model the Grave Guard were in combat with (if, for example, he was on the flank they charged) I do not think the Guard could attack normal models because they would be required to allocate to the Castellan, which they cannot because he is in a challenge. But that is the only situation I can think of that would cause that.

Thanks great times mate we were playing it wrong for months

It's actually a valid strategy with WoC knights to cheese this rule. Take your 1x5 row of knights put the champion on one of the sides that you believe will be flanked by another unit. If they do make it into flanking your champion offers a challenge since he's required to and now the only bonus the enemy gets from the whole second unit is the flanking bonus of +1 combat resolution. The whole rest of the squad flanking isn't in contact with any of your other models.

Whoa buggie

Except that unless you're fighting another WoC player, they have the option of just refusing. I know that's what my empire guys would do.

icefire78 wrote:It's actually a valid strategy with WoC knights to cheese this rule. Take your 1x5 row of knights put the champion on one of the sides that you believe will be flanked by another unit. If they do make it into flanking your champion offers a challenge since he's required to and now the only bonus the enemy gets from the whole second unit is the flanking bonus of +1 combat resolution. The whole rest of the squad flanking isn't in contact with any of your other models.

You don't even need to put him in the corner.
1) He can make way into the corner at the start of combat.
2) Champions don't need to issue challenges, only characters (unless you have a warshine)
3) The opponent can refuse the challenge.
4) Rank and file are typically lucky if they kill a single chaos knight. If that one guy happens to be the champion, all the better.
5) Even without a kill, ranks + flank + charging is usually enough to beat chaos knights. I've beaten knights more times that I can count with 25 gnoblars into the flank.
Something as crappy as gnoblars (or zombies) are going to start the combat with a 5 (3 ranks, flank and charging). You've got a single champion with 3 attacks, and 1 from a horse, and maybe a standard. That champ has to hit and wound with everything to tie combat. Roll a "3" to hit on any of those dice to hit, and he loses combat.
Then we have the very outside chance that the zombie/gnoblar attacks actually do something.

-Matt

Indeed mate! And thank you for the 5 points that really helped.

There is no point to getting a knight champ too pricey and he has to accept challenges which he will loose to a lord of the enemy army since the knight champ will only have a 6 up ward tops.

As for a chaos lord ya I take it the challenger died a horrible death.

Matt as chaos do you not have to challenge when ever possible or is that just for eye of the gods?

You only have to challenge wherever possible if you take a warshrine, i thought...

How about this then?
Assume im having my empire unit with a general in it. A chaos unit is in close combat with me and the chaos champion or hero challenges me. Can i answer with my champion instead of answering with my general so as i can use his attacks/leadership etc?

Yes, that is covered in the rules for challenges - ANY model that can accept the challenge (is in the fighting rank, can be challenged / can challenge, etc) can accept the challenge.

Note you still use the generals leadership even if he is in a chalenge. Nothing about the challenge rules alter this.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You only have to challenge wherever possible if you take a warshrine, i thought...

They changed it in the 8th WoC FAQ:

Q. Does the compulsion to issue and accept challenges apply to all
models or only to models with the Eye of the Gods special rule? (p43)
A. It applies to all models capable of issuing challenges.

Actually, now i htink - that was in the original FAQ as well.

Apparently the buried a rule in the middle of the EotG rule that applies to everyone and not just those with the rule, unlike every other single damn rule out there!

nosferatu1001 wrote:Actually, now i htink - that was in the original FAQ as well.

Apparently the buried a rule in the middle of the EotG rule that applies to everyone and not just those with the rule, unlike every other single damn rule out there!

They way it was worded in 7th, you didn't have to challenge with champions (assuming no warshrine), but they had to accept them. If your opponent wanted you in a challenge, there was nothing you could do about it. However, non- EotG models didn't have to make challenges, only accept them.

This was in 7th, and no longer the case (just to help avoid confusing folks).

Nope, I found the 7th ed FAQ, which stated that all champions MUST challenge, exactly the same as the 8th edition one.

Only EotG models got any benefit however.

(Which was my point - EotG is a special rule that applies to specific models, and contains the compulsion to challenge within it - the FAQ said that, despite this not being n armywide rule, it in fact should have been. Which is stupd to hide it in the middle of a specific rule)

If I could be bothered I'd dig up the threads where I argued this position before the 7th edition FAQ came out, where I was firmly (and reading the rules i was correct...) against champions HAVING to challenge unless a warshrine was about - then the FAQ came out and changed the rules

Maybe that was it. You had to challenge but champions were not compelled to accept them, unless a warshrine was out. 7th seems like such a long time ago...