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Seriously. My FLGS has some beautiful Cities of Death terrain along with some homebrew forests, rockscapes, pretty much everything you could want. But, there's a problem, and that problem is True Line of Sight.

All the little windows, see-through bulkheads, and trees make for tons upon tons of problems in determining cover for vehicles. How do you play it if you can see less than a square inch of a vehicle through a tiny crack in the window...4+ save? Really?


The best terrain I've found for 5th edition is the really blocky stuff. Unfortunately it's usually the kind of thing that's classified as impassable. In addition, if you use only TLOS-blocking terrain, you really aren't giving infantry any place to take cover. So maybe a mix of LOS-blocking terrain and area terrain like forests is appropriate.



To what degree do you think the popular terrain choices influence your games? Do you think that we're using the wrong terrain for 5th edition? What do you prefer?

As was said in the other thread on this topic, TLOS is one of those things you love or hate with every fiber of your body. There really isn't a middle ground.

I personally hate it, but mostly because it's a rule that's needlessly complicated and really shouldn't have been brought into 40k.

Now as for me, I've only played a couple games in 5th with my brother and a couple friends (about 20-30), but we don't use TLOS. We just base it off of if you can see more than half the model, not in cover. Half or less, in cover. Cover is generic 4+.

I hate TLoS as it penalizes certain armies because of the size of the vehicles, causing an increase of "Modeling for Advantage" problems I have been seeing in recent games, and finally penalizing creativity of models due to fancy bases and/or scratch building vehicles.

You use what terrain what you have and have at it.

NuggzTheNinja wrote: So maybe a mix of LOS-blocking terrain and area terrain like forests is appropriate.

Interestingly enough, it even says as much in the rulebook...

We have a game thats generalized in terms of everything from movement to size, to abstract rules to units.

Then suddenly we have TLOS

Nvs wrote:As was said in the other thread on this topic, TLOS is one of those things you love or hate with every fiber of your body. There really isn't a middle ground.

Erm, I would say that I think it is fine, I'm not that bothered either way. Oh well, I suppose I'm one of the silent majority who occupy the middle ground in this sort of thing. I'm not silent though, now I have an existential quandry to ponder...

Anyway, back to the point. you could always house rule it. Say that windows are solid for LOS, or give 3+ window cover save. There are many ways to get around this if everyone you play with is of a similar mind.

Nvs wrote:I personally hate it, but mostly because it's a rule that's needlessly complicated and really shouldn't have been brought into 40k.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'brought into 40K'... TLOS has been the core of the 40K LOS rules since Rogue Trader. 2nd, 3rd and 4th edition simply went around it for certain, specific situations.


I'm also a little puzzled as to what you see as complicated about it. You bend over the table, and check what the model could actually see. It really doesn't get much simpler than that.

This is why I board up certain 'windows' in CoD ruins.

Makes for some more diversity in the terrain and increases the LOS blocking abilities.

insaniak wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote: So maybe a mix of LOS-blocking terrain and area terrain like forests is appropriate.

Interestingly enough, it even says as much in the rulebook...

Unfortunately, the only terrain produced by GW that should seemingly block TLOS (Cities of Death) doesn't really do so at all, due to all the silly little windows.

I'd like to add that hardly anybody actually checks TLOS correctly. Most people fudge-factor it in their own favor in truly insane ways. They'll claim that seeing the tip of an infantryman's sword, or a vehicle's headlight, or other ornamental feature, while putting their eyeball above the firing model, is enough to actually shoot it. There's too much room for fudge factor in a game that doesn't need any more mechanical problems.

This is one of the reasons my buddies and I scrap the whole TLOS mess in favor of "good judgment" when playing.
Of course this only works in "home games" amongst friends, but hey...it's saved on a whole load of head aches.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:
I'd like to add that hardly anybody actually checks TLOS correctly. Most people fudge-factor it in their own favor in truly insane ways. They'll claim that seeing the tip of an infantryman's sword, or a vehicle's headlight, or other ornamental feature, while putting their eyeball above the firing model, is enough to actually shoot it. There's too much room for fudge factor in a game that doesn't need any more mechanical problems.

True, but this is as much people/clubs not enforcing (or knowing) rules as it is a problem with rules. I can't remember the last time a TLOS issue arose in our club, as we have one guy who is our designated sighter and he makes the call if there is an issue... and he's proven to be completely cold heartened and legalistic on such matters (plus now he has a reputation to live up to, and is even more motivated to be objective).

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Unfortunately, the only terrain produced by GW that should seemingly block TLOS (Cities of Death) doesn't really do so at all, due to all the silly little windows.

Which is not really a problem, since putting together an entire table full of GW terrain is so insanely expensive that you're far better off doing what everyone did for the 20 or so years before GW really got swinging on their own terrain, and build your own.

I'd like to add that hardly anybody actually checks TLOS correctly.

That's really going to come down entirely to who you play with. While I've come across a couple of LOS fudgers over the years (17 or so of them that I've been playing this game) for the most part the people i have played against have been fairly careful with it, and will ask for a second opinion if they're unsure.

And, of course, the rules these days even specifically deal with LOS drawn only to a sword tip or the like.

I miss the days where the dude poking his head over the trench got his head blown off and not Bob who was hiding inside a bunker all because one dude failed an armor save and passed the buck.

I use a laser pointer to check TLOS. I found one at the dollar store with a nifty mirror attached to the laser which traces a line across the ground for easy sighting. Supposedly Laser pointers aren't allowed in Australia anymore, but Red Dot stocks them

I'm annoyed that the TLOS rules are half TLOS, half Abstract. I'd prefer it be one or the other. I do feel bad sometimes when I know that my guys can see a tiny part of the enemy, and so always ask my opponent 'do you think I can see that?' if I feel too douchey about it.
For example, last game I played, my opponent (also Tau) had a unit of Crisis Suits 'hidden' behind a hill - which was just short enough that their heads peaked out over the top. My pathfinders duly lighted up the heads and I systematically popped them off with precision railgun shots... lead to a lot of 'YOUR HEAD ASPLODE' remarks.

Kurgash wrote:I miss the days where the dude poking his head over the trench got his head blown off and not Bob who was hiding inside a bunker all because one dude failed an armor save and passed the buck.

I really dont. Mobile rhino walls to snipe out the sarge / special weapon was annoying.

A lot of people don't really bother with TLoS because it is such a nuisance.

Except it really isnt a nuisance.

And by "a lot of people" - noone in the uk tournament scene does that. that's a hell of a lot of people.

Compared to the absolute horror of 4th ed (invisible cylinders, area terrain hills and close combat height levels of doom) 5th ed is VERy simple. If you can see it (it being an actually relevant part of the model, i.e. not just a gun) you can shoot it.

Done. Sorted.

Trasvi wrote:Supposedly Laser pointers aren't allowed in Australia anymore...

They're restricted in certain states, but from memory it only applies to pointers over a certain power rating... result of idiots pointing high-powered lasers at planes.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Kurgash wrote:I miss the days where the dude poking his head over the trench got his head blown off and not Bob who was hiding inside a bunker all because one dude failed an armor save and passed the buck.

I really dont. Mobile rhino walls to snipe out the sarge / special weapon was annoying.

God this 100 times over. I can't remember being more annoyed playing a table top game than when my opponents did this years ago.

TLOS is something you either love or hate. I think you just have to give benefit of doubt. If you always play that way to game doesn't lose momentum and it keeps it fun. I believe the rule book actually says give benifit of doubt on things such as blasts and templates so why shouldn't you do the same for TLOS. If it really annoys you they by a markerlight pen thingy from a shop. Lasers only ever shine in straight lines so no cheating/being ungenerous with one of those.

The designers of 5th ed stated exactly the same when it came to range / los sniping: it was a stupid consequence of 4th ed rules that they have explicitly avoided

Same for TLOS. The LOs rules in 4th ed were HORRIFIC in the extreme - desptie having elements of TLOS - mainly due to the model height levels and overuse (and misunderstanding of) area terrain. One of the clunkiest parts of the rules, which are now vastly easier to understand AND as quick to play.

IMO being able to kill a squad when a guy is sticking his head out is less of an abstraction of what is "reall"y happening. Previously it was a very static this-guy-is-definitely-in-this-position, now its much more: the turns represent a flowing movememnt, so even though at time A you can only see one guy, you can guess he isnt alone and generally hose the area down.

I've played in three tournaments and not used TLoS in two of them.

Well I can see from everyone's perspective why they hated the old version, I just remember the friendly games with friends where we didn't pull that kind of shenanigans, point taken and well made.

Kilkrazy wrote:I've played in three tournaments and not used TLoS in two of them.

What did you use instead?

Given 3rd, 4th and 5th all use TLOS as a "base", did youuse a virtual TLOS (as I've seen some fantasy tournaments attempt, to limited success) for them? If you can name the tournaments it would be interesting to see how they worked out!

Kurgash - it's a little similar to the ways you can exploit charging rules in 5th I guess - you needed to exploit the LOS rules in 4th to play at tournaments, and similarly in 5th playing games with avoiindg DT checks through positioning etc need to be played to again, be "competitive". You dont have to play that way, but similar to engagement zone clearance (e.g. around powerfists) it seemed commonplace.

TLOS was just a way to sell that nice little gw laserpointer..

TLOS has been used in 3 editions now, rendering your point invalid.

It was also a splash release....

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

All the little windows, see-through bulkheads, and trees make for tons upon tons of problems in determining cover for vehicles. How do you play it if you can see less than a square inch of a vehicle through a tiny crack in the window...4+ save? Really?

Don't spam vehicles?? Use a vehicle to block for your important ones?