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Howdy Dakka!

Recently, I was browsing through one of my favorite online stores when I came across a video of a man talking about...Warmachine/Hordes. Intrigued I took a look and I knew I found something I wanted to get into.

I've been playing 40K for a few years now. It's a great game but really, it just cost SO much. It's just ridiculous. On top of that my wife thinks I'm crazy for spending that much on little plastic models. So to keep myself from spending even more money on a WM army that I may not like I thought I'd ask y'all for some advice.

First off, in 40k I'm a Tyranid player. Absolutely love my nids. For that very reason I want to play a WM army that the 100% opposite of my Tyranid. I'm craving a very different experience from this game. Now, I know that I want to play a Warmachine (as oppose to a Hordes) army. Where would y'all suggest I start?

Anyways, thanks again.

Here you go!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/A_Beginner%27s_Guide_to_Privateer_Press_by_Mr._Grey

infinite_array wrote:Here you go!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/A_Beginner%27s_Guide_to_Privateer_Press_by_Mr._Grey

Awesome info! Thank you very much. However, do you have any advice for my question about which army plays the least like Tyranid?

I have a hard time seeing any army playing like nids. Though, for a definitively not nids feel, a Cygnar or Mercenaries gunline would do the job.

Mercy of Spades wrote:

infinite_array wrote:Here you go!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/A_Beginner%27s_Guide_to_Privateer_Press_by_Mr._Grey

Awesome info! Thank you very much. However, do you have any advice for my question about which army plays the least like Tyranid?

To be honest, there's really no 'Horde' armies in either Warmachine or, well, Hordes! I believe the closest you may get to that sort of feel would be Menoth - they like using tarpit units and sacrificing their own models to power themselves. Cryx may have the same theme, at times.

Actually, I should ask - what do your Tyranids 'feel' like to you? If it's simply numbers, then you could play any faction in Warmachine and not have to worry about getting a 'Tyranid' feel to it.

infinite_array wrote:Actually, I should ask - what do your Tyranids 'feel' like to you? If it's simply numbers, then you could play any faction in Warmachine and not have to worry about getting a 'Tyranid' feel to it.

Actually, (to be different) I run a very VERY shooty nid army lol. So I suppose a more focused melee approach would be different. Something that focuses on powerful melee models as oppose to numerous weaker models.

What does that sound like to you?


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Requia wrote:I have a hard time seeing any army playing like nids. Though, for a definitively not nids feel, a Cygnar or Mercenaries gunline would do the job.

Sadly, I run a very shooty nid army. I use swarm tactics with tons of shooting.

If you're looking for a melee heavy army, Cryx may appeal to you. They have very little shooting, and depend almost entirely on melee and spells to win the day, along with some of the most underhanded tactics in the game. It is possible for them to run horde lists, but some of their best units are their most elite (Banes and Tartarus). Almost any army, however, will give you enough options to run nearly any sort of list.

Honestly to get a different feel you need to have a different look too. I would say the best suggestion for someone looking for something different then Nids and not spend a lot would be to go Khador or Cygnar with a couple of Heavy Warjacks, a Warcaster and maybe some solos here and there.

Small Army
Not as expensive as 40k
Doesn't play like Nids
Looks different then Nids
Small army tends to be easier to learn

Khador has some of the roughest and meanest looking Jacks and they are a Pseudo Russian steampunk/Magical army! Cygnar is more knightly looking and uses lightening.

You could also go Green and be cool like many of us Merc faction lovers!

If you want to focus on melee, I would go for Cryx, Khador or Menoth. Cygnar has possibility to go close combat heavy, but it really limits the selection as they are more of a combined arms army. Cryx on the other hand has very little shooting as Tarot says and the other two factions can build very melee focused armies easier than Cygnar.

So what about the Retribution and Mercenaries? What are their stories? Are they viable options?

Retribution has currently to least choices available to them, being the new kids on the block (they came out just before Mk2). They are currently focused to shooting and hit and run tactics. They are closer to cygnar in playstyle than to the other factions and seem to play more combined arms.

Mercs are not a faction is the old joke, they have excellent casters, but the troops are a bit lacking as most of them are balanced to be included to several other factions in addition to working with merc casters. There are several subfactions to mercs and you can build also melee focused army.

Okay, out of the 4 main factions is there one that has better heavy melee focus warjacks? I'm seeing it come down between the Khador and the Cryx

Then go for Khador. I see people recomending Cryx for melee and though I can't disagree with that, Cryx can be very horde like. This is because generally it's warcasters like to hang on to their focus and thus only support a few heavy warjacks. Khador on the other hand has the heavy warjacks and they can take a hit with their armour being so high.

Both factions have good melee jacks. Cryx jacks are more mobile, but cannot take hit as well as Khador jacks. Cryx has better utility solo for helping running more jacks, Siren is the best one of power booster solos.

If you want to go jack heavy I would say go for Cryx, look at Mortenebra as your caster. He can run jack only force with focus on melee jacks. Khador has problems in supporting several jacks, most Khador lists take only 1-2 jacks.

If you plan to get more than one caster, then look at the figs. Do you like the undead jacks over the sturdy northern creations.

I am partial to Khador because Cryx reminds me to much of 40k Chaos. Khador warjacks look the part and Khador solos, infantry and Warcasters are pretty good. They even have a Warcaster who is a Warjack = Karchev.

Now I play Mercs, (The man with the mustache to be precise) and I find them a blast to play and look at. Big variety and they can be used with a lot of the other factions out there.

Any warmachine faction can run a melee list well enough, they just all put their own spin on it.

Cygnar could be a good change from the savage aqnd natural aesthetic of tyranids. They specialize in accuracy above hitting power and have more ranged choices than most armies but their ability to wear a charge target down with ranged attacks before going in for the melee kill can be quite rewarding.
The retribution actually sound closest to your tyranis build to me. They have some crazy troops that tend to be self-sufficient and none of the insane top end melee character jacks other factions can bring, BUT they also have some great rank and file melee troops and their elite melee troops are among the most dangerous in the game.
I would actually suggest the protectorate of menoth as a viable choice for you. They have some amazing buffing models and rely more on activation order for a more uniquely warmachine feel. Their jacks can be fully buffed to become absolute monsters. Their light infantry can sort of be played as the disposable pawns you might be used to from tyranis infantry, but their more elite units are universally melee heavy hitters.
Mercenaries are just too varied to categorize other than to simply state their jacks are rather cheap compared to other factions'.
As stated above, Khador and Cryx are both great choices for a wide range of melee models, but don't leave out the others.

I have to fly the flag for the Protectorate. Dais was pretty much on the mark with his summary. I would venture to say that the protectorate, model for model, has the best melee infantry in warmachine. They have more models with weapon master and fearless than any other faction (Exemplars), and are a real treat if you like subtle strategy.

CATACLYSMUS wrote:I would venture to say that the protectorate, model for model, has the best melee infantry in warmachine. They have more models with weapon master and fearless than any other faction (Exemplars), and are a real treat if you like subtle strategy.

Not really, considering most taken elite melee unit for Menoth is Horgenhold Forge Guard + Attendant Priest. Most of Menoth weapon master are really mediocre, well Errants are great but not because they are weapon masters (P+S9 Weapon masters is equivalent to regular POW12-13 attack anyway) but because they have good ranged attack as well as decent melee one and are awesome tarpit. For elite melee infantry both Khador (Doom Reavers, Great Bears of Gallowswood, Iron Fang Pikeman and Kayazy Assassins) and Cryx (both Bane units plus Tartarus, Satyxis Raiders and Bloodgorgers) are better choices. Menoth CAN do pretty good melee force, but they definitely doesn't have best melee infantry in the game.

If you want a cheap army, go with Khador. They've got the hardest hitting melee jacks out there, even if they are slow (but that's where your caster comes in). Our jacks are super expensive points wise, but cheap as it comes to your wallet. You have two different 9 point options from our plastic kit (which are both very respectable) and it's super cheap as kits go. Plus, we're insane.

First, you should buy the rulebook.

Sit down with it, go through the rules, see where and how they differ from 40k (model/unit activation in its entirety, no phase-dependent activation 'steps').

Then go through the factions. See which appeal to you most thematically. Then see which appeals to you from a playstyle perspective.

Proxy some games, or get someone who plays to spend time with you and show you the ropes.

At very low point levels (10-25) the game will feel very rock-paper-scissors. Try to focus less on winning, or beating 'that list', than on finding a unique combination of warcaster/warjacks/models that you want to keep playing. Not all factions/lists can do things equally well!

Proxy some more.

Then buy your models. Even if you were a 'pro' 40k player, WM/H will humble you. This game system has a steep learning curve, and a single mistake often ends the game with a loss. Be patient, realize that you're going to take a lot of losses, just try to figure out what your warcaster/unit combinations can do and what your opponents are going to do to screw it up.

Grahg the Elfmuncher wrote:

CATACLYSMUS wrote:I would venture to say that the protectorate, model for model, has the best melee infantry in warmachine. They have more models with weapon master and fearless than any other faction (Exemplars), and are a real treat if you like subtle strategy.

Not really, considering most taken elite melee unit for Menoth is Horgenhold Forge Guard + Attendant Priest. Most of Menoth weapon master are really mediocre, well Errants are great but not because they are weapon masters (P+S9 Weapon masters is equivalent to regular POW12-13 attack anyway) but because they have good ranged attack as well as decent melee one and are awesome tarpit. For elite melee infantry both Khador (Doom Reavers, Great Bears of Gallowswood, Iron Fang Pikeman and Kayazy Assassins) and Cryx (both Bane units plus Tartarus, Satyxis Raiders and Bloodgorgers) are better choices. Menoth CAN do pretty melee force, but they definitely doesn't have best melee infantry in the game.

Ah, but you also need to consider that 1. Exemplars can pretty much defuse any synergy any of those other units you mentioned can attempt to put up, 2. Rolling 4 dice on the charge more than makes up for any lack of P+S. 3. With the lowest MAT being 7, and the average P+S being somewhere between 11 and 12, I just don't see how either of those other factions can meet everything at once. You have the High MAT, or you have the Above average P+S, but not both like you do with the exemplars. Also, with an average ARM at above a 16, they also arent as well protected. I oppose your Tartarus with Gravus.
I oppose your Bloodgorgers with Bastions. I oppose your satyxis with Daughters of the flame. I oppose your Pikemen with Flameguard. You do have a bit of an advantage with the Doom Reavers, but you have to pay for the UA to keep them from going crazy!
In addition, there is not a model in the game with a higher MAT than Vilmon, who can take out a heavy 'Jack in one turn!
I'll grant you, all of these units you mention are impressive, and I would not hesitate to use them if I played those factions, but I stand by my statement.

Belerephon wrote:If you want a cheap army, go with Khador. They've got the hardest hitting melee jacks out there, even if they are slow (but that's where your caster comes in). Our jacks are super expensive points wise, but cheap as it comes to your wallet. You have two different 9 point options from our plastic kit (which are both very respectable) and it's super cheap as kits go. Plus, we're insane.

You, sir, are speaking my language! After careful consideration I will be going with Khador as my starting point in this game. However, I will be buying a big rule book to have a look and see what's what. This brings me to another question. Is the Battle Group worth it?


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sourclams wrote:First, you should buy the rulebook.

Sit down with it, go through the rules, see where and how they differ from 40k (model/unit activation in its entirety, no phase-dependent activation 'steps').

Then go through the factions. See which appeal to you most thematically. Then see which appeals to you from a playstyle perspective.

Proxy some games, or get someone who plays to spend time with you and show you the ropes.

At very low point levels (10-25) the game will feel very rock-paper-scissors. Try to focus less on winning, or beating 'that list', than on finding a unique combination of warcaster/warjacks/models that you want to keep playing. Not all factions/lists can do things equally well!

Proxy some more.

Then buy your models. Even if you were a 'pro' 40k player, WM/H will humble you. This game system has a steep learning curve, and a single mistake often ends the game with a loss. Be patient, realize that you're going to take a lot of losses, just try to figure out what your warcaster/unit combinations can do and what your opponents are going to do to screw it up.

Outstanding advice! Some of the best I've ever heard for any game. After I begin to get established in WM I'll be using this "template" to help other new players as well. Thank you.

sourclams wrote:First, you should buy the rulebook.

Sit down with it, go through the rules, see where and how they differ from 40k (model/unit activation in its entirety, no phase-dependent activation 'steps').

Then go through the factions. See which appeal to you most thematically. Then see which appeals to you from a playstyle perspective.

Proxy some games, or get someone who plays to spend time with you and show you the ropes.

At very low point levels (10-25) the game will feel very rock-paper-scissors. Try to focus less on winning, or beating 'that list', than on finding a unique combination of warcaster/warjacks/models that you want to keep playing. Not all factions/lists can do things equally well!

Proxy some more.

Then buy your models. Even if you were a 'pro' 40k player, WM/H will humble you. This game system has a steep learning curve, and a single mistake often ends the game with a loss. Be patient, realize that you're going to take a lot of losses, just try to figure out what your warcaster/unit combinations can do and what your opponents are going to do to screw it up.

This. For all the other Warmachine/Hordes newbs out there peeking in and thinking they want to get in to it, this is the best advice out there hands down. Honestly this blurb should be stickied. Let me repeat: if you do not know much about this hobby, go buy the rulebook. It's 30 bucks and pretty much has all four codexes in it. Get it and figure out for yourselves which faction you want to fall in love with.


Also, Mercy of Spades: Go Khador

Mercy of Spades wrote: Is the Battle Group worth it?

You basically get the caster for free in the Khador battlegroup box. Are you planning on playing with pSorscha? If yes, then it is worth it. It only has the arms to build one destroyer and juggernaut, so you get more options by buying the jack individually and if you are not planning on playing with Sorscha you don't need the battlebox.

Belerephon wrote:Also, Mercy of Spades: Go Khador

But can you guess what the icing on the cake is?

I get to make cheesy "In Steampunk Russia..." jokes all game long! lololol


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Metsuri wrote:Are you planning on playing with pSorscha? If yes, then it is worth it.

What is this caster good at?

This is my exact situation. I really want another game. After I buy one more box of my counts as Fenrisian Wolves. I am taking a break from 40k.


..Cryx all the way!

Mercy of Spades wrote:

Metsuri wrote:Are you planning on playing with pSorscha? If yes, then it is worth it.

What is this caster good at?

She is feat based assassination caster, if we over simplify her. She is quite fast and squishy and has good selection of spells, but not enough focus to be spell slinger. She is quite competitive.

Here are two nice articles on her one from Dakka and another from Battle College

As a rule of thumb, the battle boxes tend to have pretty good all around casters in them. They are the easist to get started with from each faction, and have a good selection of different abilities, stats, spells, etc. I always recommend the battle box because 1. The casters are universally pretty good, and 2. The 'jacks included are going to be useful way on into the future. And, because you are coming from 40k, it pays to know that the models in the battle boxes are every bit as good as those sold separately. No 'cheap sculpts' here!

Mercy of Spades wrote:

Belerephon wrote:If you want a cheap army, go with Khador. They've got the hardest hitting melee jacks out there, even if they are slow (but that's where your caster comes in). Our jacks are super expensive points wise, but cheap as it comes to your wallet. You have two different 9 point options from our plastic kit (which are both very respectable) and it's super cheap as kits go. Plus, we're insane.

You, sir, are speaking my language! After careful consideration I will be going with Khador as my starting point in this game. However, I will be buying a big rule book to have a look and see what's what. This brings me to another question. Is the Battle Group worth it?

Be careful with this advice. Yes, you can go 'cheap' with Khador by buying 4 10 pt warjacks and having a 'full' 35 pt army with 5 models in it for about $125.

But Khador does not do this well. You will inevitably end up with a 1-trick list, and opponents with any ability whatsoever will paper your rock with regularity.

Khador is NOT a strong jack faction, even though it has strong jacks. Its warcasters are lower focus in general and have to use focus further casting the spells which give Khador a fighting chance of getting to melee relatively intact. Khador is known for having powerful infantry, and warcasters that support powerful infantry. The lists that won the UK Masters never took more than 2 warjacks and featured mass infantry. Most winning Khador lists run few jacks, and there's a few 'trick' jack-heavy lists, but the 'good' ones run mass cheap jacks, which ends up not being cheap. Even if your concern isn't 'WAAC', Warmachine isn't like 40k where even if you're losing badly you still get to throw dice for 5 turns and pull for the moral victory like killing Abbadon or something. There's typically one turn between making a mistake and losing the game, and it's your opponent's. A great list won't prevent this, but having a solid fundamental list gets you much further towards making each game a game, rather than a one-sided beating. Khador lists also often end up rather expensive as you invest heavily into infantry squads, unit attachments, and solos, which means many models.

Menoth is actually the jack-heavy faction. They have 3-4 significant support units: The Choir, the Book, Vassals, and/or Rhoven that makes their warjacks on the whole better protected and more efficient in combat than Khador, even though Khador jacks are quantitatively tougher and stronger unbuffed. Harbinger + Support + Reckoner (heavy shooting warjack) + Templar (heavy combat warjack) + Avatar (character heavy warjack) is a legitimate starting point, not hugely expensive, and will serve you well for building off into other lists.

I only say this because I don't want you investing your limited gaming funds, then ragequitting when you can't beat the 'hard' lists that 'hard' list players (and Warmachine encourages hard play) know how to run.

http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/

This is battle college, basically an online wiki for all the Warmachine models and abilities, with enough info to give you the 'gist' of the faction or list. You should also go to the Privateer Press forums (just google it) and read through the stickied FAQs for what generally is and isn't competitive within each faction.

Privateer Press did a great job balancing this game, but factions have different general strengths, and forcing a faction into doing something it isn't really meant to do doesn't end well. Some research beforehand, especially with so many resources available, can save you headaches and growing pains.

Thanks for the advice. I may have to reconsider the reds. I do want to run a Jack heavy list.