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This came up the other day with a GK player and Chaos deamon player cause and correct me if im wrong certian deamon units can have some protection against either force or power weapons. So the GK player said they will forgo their close combat weapon and punch the deamons instead. the game was over in a split arguement. so what do you guys think i say no.

Use of wargear is optional as I understand it, so yes, you can punch someone.

No. See page 35, you must use any special attacks you have; special CCW such as force weapons generate special attacks

nosferatu1001 wrote:No. See page 35, you must use any special attacks you have; special CCW such as force weapons generate special attacks

QFT, you must use a special CCW if you have it, Its a novel idea though

Whu'? What rule is this that daemons have protection against force or power weapons? Is it:

a) Daemons all have the Eternal Warrior USR.

or

b) Daemons have invulnerable saves, not lost to power weapons.

Either way, not using your CCW wouldn't do any good.

This thread is much less awesome than the title led on.

Nvm, they answered it above.

-cgmckenzie

htj - blessings of the blood god gives you a 2++ against force weapons, from memory

Oh, nuts, I think you're right. I'll shut my stupid mouth.

Revenent Reiko wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:No. See page 35, you must use any special attacks you have; special CCW such as force weapons generate special attacks

QFT, you must use a special CCW if you have it, Its a novel idea though

I see. Doesn't seem fair. What if my guy doesn't want to use his sword? He just wants to punch his lights out!

Tough.

Its a change from 4th, when it was an oft used tactic to make combat last through their turn by turning off power weapons, etc

nosferatu1001 wrote:Tough.

Its a change from 4th, when it was an oft used tactic to make combat last through their turn by turning off power weapons, etc

Yeah, that's the way it used to be but I guess they changed it for streamlining.

No, not for streamlining. It's to make combat brutal and, hopefully, NOT last all game.

See: morale check modifier based on combat res vs 4th ed outnumber / below half strength

That's what I meant. Make it go faster.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:That's what I meant. Make it go faster.

Just paint the game red, then it will go faster!

Seems to only work when Orks are around for some reason.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No. See page 35, you must use any special attacks you have; special CCW such as force weapons generate special attacks

... that is nice but that doesn't 100% prove that special weapon = special attacks. Servo arms are special attacks as they are an extra attack with special rules (in addition to your normal attacks). Where as Power weapon attack is still an attack ... And there's always the ever present option to use a two handed weapon like a rifle butt.

Read the rules for Power Weapons, provided here:

Models wounded in close combat by the attacks of a model armed with a power weapon are not allowed armour saves.

It doesn't matter if you choose to "use" the power weapon or not; your model is still armed with it, so no saves are allowed.

Since we're talking about Grey Knights with Force Weapons, and Force Weapons use the power weapon rules, and Grey Knights don't have two special close combat weapons, they always ignore armor saves.

yeah but blessing of the blood god would give you the 2++ save against the force weapon and thats what started the whole debate if you give the puch the "force weapon" status then the blessing still applies

They're still armed with Force Weapons, therefore the Blessing of the Blood God applies, whether they intend to use the force weapon power or not.

Tri wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:No. See page 35, you must use any special attacks you have; special CCW such as force weapons generate special attacks

... that is nice but that doesn't 100% prove that special weapon = special attacks. Servo arms are special attacks as they are an extra attack with special rules (in addition to your normal attacks). Where as Power weapon attack is still an attack ... And there's always the ever present option to use a two handed weapon like a rifle butt.

There was a very long thread about this, which basically boiled down to the BRB telling us to tell what special attacks are later on, but they never do. However all attacks made with special weapons are not normal, while attacks with normal weapons like rifle buds are. Servo arms are special attacks because they do something other than the normal course of actions described in the combat phase rules. Thus any attack that does not hit at the model's initiative, not using the models weapon skill, strength and number of attacks+bonus attacks, hitting models which is normally not allowed to hit, disallowing armor and/or invulnerable saves, causes more than one wound or does some other funky stuff, is not a normal attack.

If you want details, try searching for the thread.

Think about it this way... Could you change that weapon to a chainsword and it would keep the same effect? If not, then it's special!

What a great image. A grey knight throws his halberd to the side before jumping into a brawl with demons. Just out of amusement I'd let the GK player do that.

Jidmah wrote:

Tri wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:No. See page 35, you must use any special attacks you have; special CCW such as force weapons generate special attacks

... that is nice but that doesn't 100% prove that special weapon = special attacks. Servo arms are special attacks as they are an extra attack with special rules (in addition to your normal attacks). Where as Power weapon attack is still an attack ... And there's always the ever present option to use a two handed weapon like a rifle butt.

There was a very long thread about this, which basically boiled down to the BRB telling us to tell what special attacks are later on, but they never do. However all attacks made with special weapons are not normal, while attacks with normal weapons like rifle buds are. Servo arms are special attacks because they do something other than the normal course of actions described in the combat phase rules. Thus any attack that does not hit at the model's initiative, not using the models weapon skill, strength and number of attacks+bonus attacks, hitting models which is normally not allowed to hit, disallowing armor and/or invulnerable saves, causes more than one wound or does some other funky stuff, is not a normal attack.

If you want details, try searching for the thread.

I was there, I did not agree then, nor do I now.

Deamons with BotBG get a 2++ against force weapon attacks(activated or not)


this is why you take a Libby with Dark Excommunication. take away that 2++, AND their Power Weapon attacks.

Nevermind. Cattiness is never appreciated.

It would be good, and love the title of the thread btw

You can't punch somebody, but the thing is, if I remember correctly, any weapon can be counted as a close combat weapon, but all guns other than pistols are two-handed. So he could just attack you with his stormbolters.

Except, and this was pointed out: page 35 makes you use your special attacks.

Now, some posters take the EXTREMELY restrictive view that this only means attacks that auto hit, or auto wound, etc - however most people I have ever played with all state the more open one, which is any attack that doesnt allow saves, lets you reroll to wound, etc, is special.

I found the title of this thread amusing but it isn't exactly what I expected.

Yes, you can punch someone, but what you should probably be asking is 'may I punch someone?'

This is illegal in 40k and real life, so it should be pretty intuitive.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:I found the title of this thread amusing but it isn't exactly what I expected.

Yes, you can punch someone, but what you should probably be asking is 'may I punch someone?'

This is illegal in 40k and real life, so it should be pretty intuitive.

What about beating with the outside of my Big rule book when they can't understand the parts that are inside?