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So a Nob squad is going to cost about 300-500 points depending on upgrades,but are they worth the points? Should you take a nob squad or 2 other units for the same points.It seems like 10 nobs is a bit much as they should walk through most units without any problems .Five seem to cheap enough to take in most lists but lack bodies and bolters will destroy them.

Im running a Battlewagon heavy list and am having trouble figuring out the best use of nobz. My options are run some mega in a wagon ,nice and cheap as 3 naked megas only cost 120 pts and do some damge.Nobz in a wagon more expensive as your going to want to have more then 3 nobz plus painboy and other upgrades .Or finally Nob bikers, run about 6 of them on bikes behind the wagon wall.This is the most expensive option and there is the loss of one battlewagon

I dont recommend the naked MANZ becasue then you cant abuse the wound allocation with them but then you would be wanting to Mad Doc with them to give them FNP. As far as Nobz go I usually run a 7 man squad (3 Big Choppas, 3 PKs and the Painboy) and they can usually bring some beatdown and be taken as troops if you run a Warboss/Ghaz. I would definitely not suggest Nob Bikerz if youre having difficulty shelling out points for even a regular diversified Nobz squad.

Here's the thing:

If you're just looking for extra Battlewagons (which, incidentally, is not always a bad thing), a small unit of Meganobz isn't a bad choice. I wouldn't take more than 3 with differentiated shooting weapons, mind you.

For actual effectiveness, a unit of 10 Nobz is really, really hard to deal with. Keep them cheap--don't go overboard on Power Klaws. 1, maybe 2 is all you need, then start passing out 5-point upgrades until you run out. It will be a very pricy unit and a very tempting target, mind you.

Bikers... Well, they'll run you over 300 points for a unit of 5, typically. I love them, but I've been using Nob Bikers ever since Codex: Armageddon.

Unless the game your playing is HUGE, never EVER take 10 nobz, they are just way to costly. Look at it like this. Take a 10 nobz mob and gear it up as usual, mine hits around the 400pt area without a BW. Now I almost always run a 6 man nobz mob, set up with the same idea for wound allocation and it comes in at around 240 - 265 if I have 2 pks in there. Both will kill off pretty much any unit you throw them at and be incredibly hard to take out, but one is ALOT less costly then the max sized one. Max nobz mobs in regular games are over kill, you can pretty much buy a whole unit of boyz with pk nobz in it.



and personally nob bikers are over rated. They cost far more then normal nobz arnt that much more kily (they are faster big deal) and hurt more when they get insta killed by free missiles

I have had some success with 9 nobz units, never missed the last one. I always kit them out to kill units that boyz can't kill, and get them there.

The advantages of nob bikers is +1T and that cover save, which make them much harder to kill in CC and at range. I always put a warboss with my 5 nob bikerz though, exactly because of those missiles, which makes them the same price as those 9 nobz in a bw. Both kill about the same amount over the course of a game, while nobz kill more at once, nob bikers usually kill something every turn.

I Think 6 with 2 Klaws is enough. (diversified of course)

Still want more kills? add the warboss.

I'm sick of nobz. Even with a 4+/5++ and FNP (which is damned expensive), almost every time they go up against a unit of marines (in my local, usually Grey Hunters) they lose combat, fail their Morale test (twice) and get swept off the board. I've been replacing them with more units of boyz and it's worked much better for me.

Idk how you lose to a tac squad even getting charged . I run 2 klaw 1 big choppa 2 choppa and a dok , 2 klaws get 6attacks hitting on 3's killing on 2s that should kill 3 of them the rest of the boys should kill 2 more thats 5 dead marines if you run 6 nobz and they get charged . If you charge klaws kill 4 boys kill 3 for 7 dead marines .They really shouldnt give you that much trouble

The problem is not how many marines are killed, it's how many wounds you take in return. A typical squad of Grey Hunters has 21 regular attacks, 3 power fist attacks (from the Wolf Guard), 3 power weapon attacks (from one of the Hunters) and 3-8 Rending attacks (from Mark of the Wulfen) regardless of whether they charge or not. They'll also be re-rolling all rolls of 1 due to a Wolf Standard. It's pretty easy for them to deal 8 or 9 wounds in return to your 7, and then your Nobz are dead because the survivors get swept away. The Grey Hunter pack costs about 230 points, whereas the Nobz clock in at about 280... and even though you've crippled his squad, he can still use it to score, whereas yours is gone.

kadeton wrote:The problem is not how many marines are killed, it's how many wounds you take in return. A typical squad of Grey Hunters has 21 regular attacks, 3 power fist attacks (from the Wolf Guard), 3 power weapon attacks (from one of the Hunters) and 3-8 Rending attacks (from Mark of the Wulfen) regardless of whether they charge or not. They'll also be re-rolling all rolls of 1 due to a Wolf Standard. It's pretty easy for them to deal 8 or 9 wounds in return to your 7, and then your Nobz are dead because the survivors get swept away. The Grey Hunter pack costs about 230 points, whereas the Nobz clock in at about 280... and even though you've crippled his squad, he can still use it to score, whereas yours is gone.

Even at full strength 5 nobz, 2 klaws, with a painboy should go down like this.

Shooting:
5 shots, 1.667 hits, 0.833 wounds, 0.28 unsaved wounds

Close Combat:
Orks: I4
15 big choppa attacks, 7.5 hits, 6.25 wounds, 2.08 unsaved wounds
4 'Urty attacks, 2 hits, 1.5 wounds, 0.5 unsaved wounds

Marines: I4
21 CC attacks, 10.5 hits, 5.25 wounds, 2.19 wounds past armor and fnp
5 Rending attcks, 2.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, 0.65 wounds past armor and fnp (rending factored in)

Orks: I1
8 attacks, 4 hits, 3.33 unsaved wounds, 3.33 unsaved wounds

Marines: I1
3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, 1.25 unsaved instant death wounds

Thus in the end the casualties are as follows.

Marine losses: 6 and with a small chance for seven dead
Ork losses: 1 dead nob, 2 with wound wound each on them

Marines lose by 2 wounds.

This is without the wolf banner, though even with that it only brings them to even and you aren't down more than a single model because of wound groups.

You should rather replace your dice. Nobz should easily rip apart even fully kitted Grey Hunters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Norade, did you factor in +1WS from the Waagh! Banner?

Jidmah wrote:You should rather replace your dice. Nobz should easily rip apart even fully kitted Grey Hunters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Norade, did you factor in +1WS from the Waagh! Banner?

Nope, not at all. So those orks are hitting more often.

So the wolf banner brings them to even, and the power weapon you forgot to factor in brings them into the lead?

Nobz: 6 models: 266 points
-Klaw + Cybork
-Klaw + Run + Cybork
-Big Choppa + Cybork
-Big Choppa + Banner + Cybork
-Big Choppa + Runt + Cybork
-Dok + Cybork

Grey Hunters: 10 models: 228 points
-Wolf Guard + Frost Blade
-Hammer
-Mark
-Banner
-6 normal models (1 w/ melta)

No transport costs, assuming Nobz charge and the hunters counter attack.

Shooting:
5 shots, 1.667 hits, 0.833 wounds, 0.28 unsaved wounds

Close Combat:
Orks: I4
15 big choppa attacks, 10 hits, 8.33 wounds, 2.78 unsaved wounds
4 'Urty attacks, 2.67 hits, 2 wounds, 0.67 unsaved wounds

Marines: I4
21 CC attacks, 12.25 hits, 7.15 wounds, 2.38 wounds past armor and fnp
5 Rending attacks, 2.92 hits, 1.70 wounds, 0.79 wounds past armor and fnp (rending factored in)
3 Power attacks, 1.75 hits, 1.70 wounds, 0.68 wounds past invulnerable

Orks: I1
8 attacks, 4 hits, 4.44 unsaved wounds, 4.44 unsaved wounds

Marines: I1
3 attacks, 1.75 hits, 1.7 wounds, 1.13 unsaved instant death wounds

Thus in the end the casualties are as follows.

Marine losses: 8 and with a small chance for 9 dead.
Ork losses: 6 wounds with a total of one dead ork.

Marines lose by 2 wounds on average and 3 wounds less often.

Marines break under 50% of the time and lose in their turn.

kadeton wrote:The problem is not how many marines are killed, it's how many wounds you take in return. A typical squad of Grey Hunters has 21 regular attacks, 3 power fist attacks (from the Wolf Guard), 3 power weapon attacks (from one of the Hunters) and 3-8 Rending attacks (from Mark of the Wulfen) regardless of whether they charge or not. They'll also be re-rolling all rolls of 1 due to a Wolf Standard. It's pretty easy for them to deal 8 or 9 wounds in return to your 7, and then your Nobz are dead because the survivors get swept away. The Grey Hunter pack costs about 230 points, whereas the Nobz clock in at about 280... and even though you've crippled his squad, he can still use it to score, whereas yours is gone.

I've had this issue come up quite a few times with nobz vs guard. And is the single biggest complaint I have against the current combat res set up (i.e. it goes on wounds not casualties). I can kill 10 guardsmen from a squad of 20, but so long as they do 11 wounds (killing a single nob, assuming a fully diversified 10 man squad) back they win combat, how can you consider a unit that has lost 1/2 its models to kill a single model from the other unit being a victory?

Say for instance I attack a squad of 5 marines with 5 diversified nobz and deal 2 unsaved wounds, thats 2 dead marines. The marines hit back and through stroke of luck manage to get 3 unsaved wounds on my nobs, due to WA Shenanigans this means 3 nobz take 1 wound, but no casualties. Nobz lose combat, due to crap initiative they are easily taken out in the sweeping advance, nob squad is dead.

Norade wrote:Orks: I4
15 big choppa attacks, 10 hits, 8.33 wounds, 2.78 unsaved wounds
4 'Urty attacks, 2.67 hits, 2 wounds, 0.67 unsaved wounds

That should be 1.48 wounds and 0.44 wounds respectively. Remember that the Hunters get to reroll 1s on armour saves.

Marines: I4
21 CC attacks, 12.25 hits, 7.15 wounds, 2.38 wounds past armor and fnp
5 Rending attacks, 2.92 hits, 1.70 wounds, 0.79 wounds past armor and fnp (rending factored in)
3 Power attacks, 1.75 hits, 1.70 wounds, 0.68 wounds past invulnerable

Average number of rending attacks is actually 5.92. Remember, you can reroll a 1 on the number of attacks. I get 1.21 unsaved wounds including rending.
Since your power attacks are coming from a Wolf Guard, that's 4 attacks, 2.33 hits, 1.81 wounds, 1.21 unsaved.

Orks: I1
8 attacks, 4 hits, 4.44 unsaved wounds, 4.44 unsaved wounds

Marines: I1
3 attacks, 1.75 hits, 1.7 wounds, 1.13 unsaved instant death wounds

All looks fine.

Thus in the end the casualties are as follows.

Marine losses: 8 and with a small chance for 9 dead.
Ork losses: 6 wounds with a total of one dead ork.

Marines lose by 2 wounds on average and 3 wounds less often.

Marines break under 50% of the time and lose in their turn.

With corrected figures, that's 6.36 dead marines and 5.93 nob wounds... unless the hammer attacks caused instant death on an unwounded model, which is hard to account for statistically, but if you simply double them it's 7.06 wounds. So the outcome is a very slim victory or (more likely) draw for the orks.

And that's on the charge, mind you... if the marines charge, the nobs lose handily. Do you still think they're worth the extra 50 points you pay for them? Bear in mind also that when you lose, you most likely die, whereas the marines will either run away or stay in combat and beat you next round.

the great thing about nob bikers, is when kitted with big choppas and powerklaws, they make great tank hunters. drive up assault the tank in question, and feed your str 7-9 attacks into its arse. with all those attacks the tank is probally going down, or at the minimum be VERY hurtin.

additonally the increased toughness helps against small arms fire and CC, cover save for everything else, 4+ armor inc, and the ability to turboboost across the table. my biker nobs are 9 out of 10 games the star of the match.

kadeton wrote:<Snipped Math>

I guess the late night was worse for me than I thought. However the answer is still yes, they are worth it when you can't tailor your lists to the expected army. If your area has a ton of wolves, then it's worth considering, if they make up one army then possibly not. Those nobz are going to better resist things like Purifiers and the like as well. Not to mention the fact that the banner only works once, IIRC.

Always make sure to include. Cybork, Waaagh Banner, a few PK and Big choppas and always always always Painboy. yeah they are worth every penny you pay for them. Especially riding in a BW with Ghaz or warboss. With ghaz and warboss no unit is taking them out easily. Grey Hunters....pfff big deal. Mathhammer...pfff, even math can't control your dice. You could roll 12 6 's in a row or 12 1's. Just have fun and know nobs are a ton of fun.

Norade wrote:I guess the late night was worse for me than I thought. However the answer is still yes, they are worth it when you can't tailor your lists to the expected army. If your area has a ton of wolves, then it's worth considering, if they make up one army then possibly not. Those nobz are going to better resist things like Purifiers and the like as well. Not to mention the fact that the banner only works once, IIRC.

Yeah, I'm still not convinced. I agree that they're one of the hardest-hitting units in the Ork codex, but I really feel that the book is showing its age. My problem, in a nutshell, is that our best hammer unit gets trivially smashed by most Space Marine elite infantry, and can even struggle against their basic infantry in the case of Wolves (who, let's be fair, are stupidly undercosted).

You mention resisting Purifiers better, but that's only in the sense that they will take less wounds from Purifying Flame... the nobs will still get smashed into the ground with instant death attacks at I6, so it's not really a contest.

We have precisely one thing in the book that will reliably stand up to elite infantry, and that's Ghazghkull, and even then, only for one game turn. I dunno, I'm just getting Ork fatigue, I guess... I chose the army because I liked the idea of the howling horde smashing through the enemy lines, but in reality what happens is the horde hits the line, bounces off, and dies.

My Ork Nobs as followed at 2000 points:

7 Nobs- Cybork Body- 330 points
Painboy, Grot Orderly
Power klaw
Power klaw, Combi-Rokkit
Power klaw, Combi-Rokkit, Bosspole
Big Choppa
Big Choppa, Kombi-Rokkit
Slugga and Choppa, Waaagh! Banner
Dedicated Transport- Battlewagon with Deffrolla, Red Paint Job, Armor Plates, Grot Riggers, Boarding Plank, and Big Shoota- 140 points

If you're taking the Kombi-rokkits, take Ammo runts. The rerolls would be worth it. Single reroll, to single shot.

kadeton wrote:

Norade wrote:I guess the late night was worse for me than I thought. However the answer is still yes, they are worth it when you can't tailor your lists to the expected army. If your area has a ton of wolves, then it's worth considering, if they make up one army then possibly not. Those nobz are going to better resist things like Purifiers and the like as well. Not to mention the fact that the banner only works once, IIRC.

Yeah, I'm still not convinced. I agree that they're one of the hardest-hitting units in the Ork codex, but I really feel that the book is showing its age. My problem, in a nutshell, is that our best hammer unit gets trivially smashed by most Space Marine elite infantry, and can even struggle against their basic infantry in the case of Wolves (who, let's be fair, are stupidly undercosted).

You mention resisting Purifiers better, but that's only in the sense that they will take less wounds from Purifying Flame... the nobs will still get smashed into the ground with instant death attacks at I6, so it's not really a contest.

We have precisely one thing in the book that will reliably stand up to elite infantry, and that's Ghazghkull, and even then, only for one game turn. I dunno, I'm just getting Ork fatigue, I guess... I chose the army because I liked the idea of the howling horde smashing through the enemy lines, but in reality what happens is the horde hits the line, bounces off, and dies.

Purifiers still have to hit on 4+ and wound on 4+, resulting in a maximum of three wounds for five of them, which can still be saved by cybork, or their psychic test may fail. Then they disappear to the klaws.

Jidmah wrote:Purifiers still have to hit on 4+ and wound on 4+, resulting in a maximum of three wounds for five of them, which can still be saved by cybork, or their psychic test may fail. Then they disappear to the klaws.

Without wanting to get into another round of mathhammer, I just want to point out that you are using the word "maximum" quite incorrectly.

Agreed. My argument stays the same though

Fair enough. I'm not sure comparing a 130-point unit of Purifiers to a 280-point unit of Nobs is entirely fair, however. A unit of 10 is probably a better comparison.

If they use their psychic test for the turn to power their force weapons, they're hitting and wounding on 4+, for an average of 5 wounds. The nobs will save around 1, so four of them will die. You've just taken 8 wounds and you have two models left (for the sake of argument, both with klaws). If you charged, and you hit and wound with every attack (on a 4+ and 2+, unlikely) you'll draw the combat, yay!

This is only the poor man's mathhammer version, obviously. I'm not sure it's worth doing a full analysis since the odds are so heavily weighted in favour of the Purifiers.

Most GKs tend to combat-squad their purifiers for more cleansing flames going off, so those nobz usually need to plow through more than one squad of five, as we really don't have that many options to get rid of them. A ten man purifier squad should not be charged at all(your math tells us why), just shoot them until they are down to five, and be happy that your opponent can use flames only once in a combat, not twice.