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Hey guys,

I'm a long time 40k player who has recently fallen for the allure and structure of Fantasy. I recently went out and dropped $90 (can) on the rulebook so I could better understand the rules of the game, and to try and get some insight into the armies. Unfortunately after reading it off and on for the past few days, I haven't really received enough information to make a good choice.

I'm having one heck of a time deciding which army to play. I have gone through all the posts relating to this topic in the past few days, but they don't seem to help me much. They always seem to derail into something else.

I'm looking for an army with a strong CC element, Minor shooting support and a strong magical backbone. I also need them to be competitive. I believe I've narrowed it down to Orcs and Goblins or Vampire counts. I am very open to suggestion, but please explain why you chose that army. One thing I should say though, is that I hate Elves. So please no Elves.

With the description you gave of what you want in an army you pretty much made the choice. O+G have all the things you wanted where as VC sorta do. The shooting support for VC is minimal compared to the options O+G have. Also Orcs are better CC then most of the standard VC units like skellies or zombies. Goblins not so much but you can use them as swamp units and lets the Orcs do all the beating.

P.S. I love O+G so my opinion is biased

Well, strong CC, minor shooting, and very strong magic? Lizardman have skink shooting for poisoned shots, which are great monster killers/wounders and can wittle down enemy ranks, saurus have a fairly great statline being S4 T4 (which means more in fantasy than 40k) and 2 attacks base. Oh and the Slann picks a lore and dominates it, hard.

Other than that Daemons of Chaos have great magic in Tzeetch, as well as fething fantastic shooting in the form of Flamers, and bloodletters make for an excellent choppy element. Though to be fair, VC do very much depend on their magic, but off the top of my head I can't think of any shooting that they have.

VC is supposedly very rough in the 8th edition codex, as their magic abilities were changed drastically. Orcs and Goblins is a solid army that has received the first 8th edition army book and it is solid. Is it "OP, OMG!!" like the skaven book? No. It's solid though and should amount for some fun play options. My friend and I built a rock solid list in it that is a take-all-comers and has a bit of everything: chariots, pump wagons, manglers, squig herds, wolf riders, night goblins, orc boyz, savage boyz. If you need help building ideas, just ask. But the book does have a bit of everything, including awesome warmachines (A big machine that throws goblins who SPLAT the enemy? Done!); deranged, fungoid mutants (squigs); and plenty of angry green skins. Go forth and sow havoc.

I think you're description leans more to O&G, but have you considered Warriors of Chaos? They also might be something that would fit- minimal shooting, CC is what they do, and a Tzeentch Wiz on a disc can lay down some magic.

Also, are you the kind of person who cares about fluff (like does animosity sound funny? or do you like the Vamp leading a horde of undead?) Do the VC or O&G models appeal more to you? I don't play much, but what I gather from podcasts I listen to is that VC are still competitive, just a lot of players tend to use very similar lists now.

Orktapus wrote:With the description you gave of what you want in an army you pretty much made the choice. O+G have all the things you wanted where as VC sorta do. The shooting support for VC is minimal compared to the options O+G have. Also Orcs are better CC then most of the standard VC units like skellies or zombies. Goblins not so much but you can use them as swamp units and lets the Orcs do all the beating.

P.S. I love O+G so my opinion is biased

Thank you very much for the reply. I appreciate all input, regardless of how biased it may be Who knows your army better than you do?

Kura wrote:Well, strong CC, minor shooting, and very strong magic? Lizardman have skink shooting for poisoned shots, which are great monster killers/wounders and can wittle down enemy ranks, saurus have a fairly great statline being S4 T4 (which means more in fantasy than 40k) and 2 attacks base. Oh and the Slann picks a lore and dominates it, hard.

Other than that Daemons of Chaos have great magic in Tzeetch, as well as fething fantastic shooting in the form of Flamers, and bloodletters make for an excellent choppy element. Though to be fair, VC do very much depend on their magic, but off the top of my head I can't think of any shooting that they have.

I did consider Lizardmen, but they kind of seem like 1 trick ponies to me. What I mean by that is, shut down the slannm shut down the army. They have low Init, and don't seem to have any special punching power. I could be wrong though.

And deamons I have a serious hatred for. Back in the old days when I played fantasy for a few months, a friend has a deamons army that was complete cheese. It made me quit fantasy. So I just can't do it.

timetowaste85 wrote:VC is supposedly very rough in the 8th edition codex, as their magic abilities were changed drastically. Orcs and Goblins is a solid army that has received the first 8th edition army book and it is solid. Is it "OP, OMG!!" like the skaven book? No. It's solid though and should amount for some fun play options. My friend and I built a rock solid list in it that is a take-all-comers and has a bit of everything: chariots, pump wagons, manglers, squig herds, wolf riders, night goblins, orc boyz, savage boyz. If you need help building ideas, just ask. But the book does have a bit of everything, including awesome warmachines (A big machine that throws goblins who SPLAT the enemy? Done!); deranged, fungoid mutants (squigs); and plenty of angry green skins. Go forth and sow havoc.

You know, I acctually heard that about VC not too long ago. I was afraid it was only because they were OP in 7th (so I heard), but were on par now.

Are the O&G's competitive in tournaments? I can't seem to find a pdf copy of their book anywhere to even check em out before purchasing a real copy.

I went to a 1000pt tournament in Boston and the 2nd place winner was an O&G player. She wrecked anyone she played except the guy who was running a pretty busted High Elf list who won.

They are sort of random though (you have to deal with animosity) but their troops are cheap and they can pack a punch. Plus, you'll have a bunch of models your opponent can have trouble dealing with (can't get in CC) like Manglers and Fanatics (manglers are just BIG fanatics really), chariots that ignore armor saves (snotling pump wagons), awesome magic, and cheap RaF troops (goblins are 3 pts, orcs are 6pts). The characters are also really good and you can get some cheap heroes and lords, allowing you to spam them. I'd say they're quite competitive on paper, but other than one tourney, I haven't actually seen them in action.

I'm still fishing for input on the armies, but one question for you O&G players out there. How do you find animosity?

I don't know the 8th version, but I know I hated it back in the day.

It is a lot more user friendly now. If you roll a 1, you roll on a chart: roll a second one and you squabble. Roll a 2-5 and you must charge the nearest enemy if possible (due to range of charges, you'll possibly get the charge). If you can't charge, you stand where you are (I believe) or act normally. If you roll a 6 you charge, if possible, and if not you move a certain amount towards the nearest enemy unit, THEN get your regular movement. It's MUCH better than it was last edition.

Yay for Canadians playing warhammer.

It is a total change from 40k (derp) an well I play marines and so ws st and toughness 4 was standard so most armies seemed weak but str and toughness and ws 3 is well very common.

I like me my warriors jsut as a side note.

Animosity is well less harsh one of my friends was bragging that he would have less trouble but what first animosity he failed apically and got the worst result this was right after he bragged about it anyways good times.

But ya lizards are pretty awesome I like warriors empire is cool green skins are silly fun just like in 40k.

I'm still not completely sold on the idea of Orcs. While they seem like they could be fun with the random factor, I'm afraid that they're only strength is their numbers. While I love the idea of sending in little peons to die, and the true warriors waiting for the right time to strike, I'm afraid those warriors waiting will not be good enough. I may be wrong though.

The one thing I do really enjoy about them though, is their diversity. All the different options of models and beasts are beautiful.

Send in a bunch of manglers and chariots to hit your opponents ranks and then die. They're fodder. Throw out night goblins for the fanatics to smash...then die. Then the orcs come in and mop everything up. It's fluffy and it'll work. They key with Orcs and Goblins right now is to send in the right wave of models at the right time, and knowing what is the right wave. They've tactically a lot more sound than they were in the past, and they're more than just a rabble (feels like an oxymoron: rabble-free O&G )

Hi OP, can you tell me what army's style or look interest you?

Because im sure we can make a workable list for stuff you like.

Green skins holding back what? those guys dont wait you have so many of them you over whelm them and go we win.

But really they are pretty strong and have a bunch of attacks and there are lots of them.

timetowaste85 wrote:Send in a bunch of manglers and chariots to hit your opponents ranks and then die. They're fodder. Throw out night goblins for the fanatics to smash...then die. Then the orcs come in and mop everything up. It's fluffy and it'll work. They key with Orcs and Goblins right now is to send in the right wave of models at the right time, and knowing what is the right wave. They've tactically a lot more sound than they were in the past, and they're more than just a rabble (feels like an oxymoron: rabble-free O&G )

I'll be honest to you, that sort of appeals to me. Sounds like it would be easy to predict though.

LunaHound wrote:Hi OP, can you tell me what army's style or look interest you?

Because im sure we can make a workable list for stuff you like.

Omg! LunaHound! I read your posts all the time.
Ok ok... back to business

Are you looking for style when it comes to O&G? Or just overall play style?

cowpow16 wrote:Green skins holding back what? those guys dont wait you have so many of them you over whelm them and go we win.

But really they are pretty strong and have a bunch of attacks and there are lots of them.

This I don't like. It means there are no tactics to it. Just a bunch of dumb greenskins streaking down the field trying to kill.

While I like the idea of them running to kill other armies, I want some brains and tactics behind it as well

Jamora wrote:Omg! LunaHound! I read your posts all the time.
Ok ok... back to business

Are you looking for style when it comes to O&G? Or just overall play style?

xD *hugs

Style hmm , i meant when looking at the armies generally , which do you like aesthetically i guess?

Or was OnG your most preferred army atm?

I summed it up mostly in my main post. Aesthetically, anything but elves, dwarfs or daemons.

Well there are so many choices with O&G that you can have a dumb green skin army or a mega elite super specialized almost green skin army.

Jamora wrote:I summed it up mostly in my main post. Aesthetically, anything but elves, dwarfs or daemons.

Ah sorry , i missed a tiny part of it when i was reading.

Orc and Goblin or Vampire hmm...

OnG are always going to be more popular with more choices, GW will always pamper them, and they have bunch of new releases recently as well.

Vampire counts, i dunno, they dont have any shooting units i dont think? Their core CC is really really weak, but i guess its just an anvil unit that wont give up which is fine.
Then what you have left are KB Grave Guards , and Calvary in the form of Blood Knight and Black Knight , which seem to suffer under this edition. I dont think they have too much tactics, the units
have their exact duties so its predictable. I guess they are abit behind on the codex creep, if you ever want to start them maybe wait till next VC army update?

OnG is yummy with so many units....

So, OnG can be pretty competitive then?
Are there any other armies you may suggest for me Luna? Staying within the parameters I've set?

Thank you in advance for letting me pick your brain.

O&G just got a new book and they are quite popular and they are quite competitive.

WoC are very minor shooting the shooting they have in the form of the hellcannon it is very strong but thats all the shooting.

Magic Lore of tz and lore of nurgle both quite nasty plus some brb lores.

CC warriors shred things!
Khorne warriors super killy.
Tz warriors they all have a 6+ ward 5+ in cc with awesome armor great ws toughness initiative their cc skills are great.
You also have lots of options and lots of different tactics.

Jamora wrote:So, OnG can be pretty competitive then?
Are there any other armies you may suggest for me Luna? Staying within the parameters I've set?

Thank you in advance for letting me pick your brain.

Im sorry the info given isnt very specific ( almost every army can fit the criteria you mentioned , so the only thing for certain is no Elves xD)

Beastmen: Strong and cheap CC , average skirmishing units of Ungors. Ambush rule makes good tactics but still count on luck whether they show up or not. Beastman characters however IMHO are the most
unique of all Fantasy armies, its very hard to deal with them due to their special rules. The Minotaur are pretty elite at CC as well.

Bretonnia: Sorry i have never played against one or even seen one lol

Daemon of Chaos: Amazing CC, but with 8th edition, im not sure how they fare with instability rule especially every army can get steadfast cheap now.
But good thing is, lots of these guys like Blood Letter and Blood Crushers are in plastic. With 4 different Chaos gods , you get tons of variety and combination, in magic and wargear.

Dwarfs: Tough, strong , nice armor, lack of movement. Gun line are popular since they have good ranged weapon like cross bow , guns , and since they move slow anyways. Nice artillery, dunno how Rune works.

Lizardmen: They are actually amazing ( if you like how they look ) they can function without Slaan mages ( which can be placed in 2nd rank , or even be Ethereal )
Their core troops, Saurus , strong , tough , high armor , TWO attacks , down side = slow int. But they are so tough and hits back really hard that they can afford to be slow.
Skinks, cheap poison ranged weapons. Very shooty , and can be skirmishers. The skink priest are cheap , Heaven magic are quite strong as well.
Engine of the Gods on Stegadon are auto cast and CANNOT be dispelled. Generally i use the ward save spell , then when im in range , release the AOE damage spell.

Ogre Kingdom: I dunno they are ugly, never played against one. But under this edition they get stomp and nice 3 support attacks per even in 2nd rank. Which make them rather effective in CC
Despite been Ogre sized, still T4 with weak armor....

The Empire: I dont know never seen one in person/

Tomb Kings: My current army. Everything is so slow.... high Toughness isnt that helpful when 6s on hit auto wounds -_- I cant march either...
Entombed beneath the sand is so bad too... you have to start beneath the sand so .... pray they'll surface. They nerfed Khalida... so we need one rather large unit of archers to make her sort of worth it.
Their CC is weak , and they crumble, need My Will Shall Be Done to boost the large units. However... their magic excels at buffing the weak skellies. Ward Saves, Killing Blows , 2x shots / attacks etc etc.
At the same time they heal the units alittle when casted. Of course for the buffs to go through you need magic heavy set up -_- or else they'll just dispel everything and we are back to weak troops xD
Their hard hitting CC units hmm.... Necro Knights , high number of poison attacks from snake, decent KB attack from knight. WarSphinx, thunder stomps , decent KB from crew, spend 15pts on one use breath weapons that is rather effective.

Vampire Counts: I dont know this edition. Last edition i use Blood Knight Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon , went around killing every character on table. dunno if that works now. And used Lhamian vampire on enemy character im not too sure about.

Warrior of Chaos: GW atleast like these guys enough to give them nice models with enough updates on resculpts xD
Warriors: They are really strong at all aspects, but quite expensive, they get marks that benefits everyone in unit ( so the larger the unit the cheaper it gets ) The different marks makes them very versatile.
Marauders: They are so cheap.... and makes excellent anvil units. They can actually be quite tough as well, with mark of Tzeentch, light armor + shield . they get 5+ AS , 5+ ward save. Bad part: they are on 25mm base.
People have said lots of good things about Hell Cannon for ranged, as well as their cheap fast calvary ( with nice throwing axes )

Im sorry im not very familiar with this edition so i cant really tell anything more :x

I strongly advise against brets there are very few effective army builds and they are unforgiving if you make a mistake you will pay for it dearly.

Empire has many different builds good units good lords heroes etc.
They can do good in cc (not as good as woc but pretty good).
They can be shooty.
Cannon war machines good times (mortars are nasty).
Lots of cool minis lots of different set ups lots of tactics lots of play styles.

LunaHound wrote:

Lizardmen: They are actually amazing ( if you like how they look ) they can function without Slaan mages ( which can be placed in 2nd rank , or even be Ethereal )
Their core troops, Saurus , strong , tough , high armor , TWO attacks , down side = slow int. But they are so tough and hits back really hard that they can afford to be slow.
Skinks, cheap poison ranged weapons. Very shooty , and can be skirmishers. The skink priest are cheap , Heaven magic are quite strong as well.
Engine of the Gods on Stegadon are auto cast and CANNOT be dispelled. Generally i use the ward save spell , then when im in range , release the AOE damage spell.

This has made me interested in Lizardmen. Maybe I'll find a lizzy book and check it out.

Jamora wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Lizardmen: They are actually amazing ( if you like how they look ) they can function without Slaan mages ( which can be placed in 2nd rank , or even be Ethereal )
Their core troops, Saurus , strong , tough , high armor , TWO attacks , down side = slow int. But they are so tough and hits back really hard that they can afford to be slow.
Skinks, cheap poison ranged weapons. Very shooty , and can be skirmishers. The skink priest are cheap , Heaven magic are quite strong as well.
Engine of the Gods on Stegadon are auto cast and CANNOT be dispelled. Generally i use the ward save spell , then when im in range , release the AOE damage spell.

This has made me interested in Lizardmen. Maybe I'll find a lizzy book and check it out.

Who doesn't like dinosaur men riding bigger dinosaurs led by levitating frog wizards?

Do it they are quite awesome also fun to paint.

All hail hipnotoad.
Seriously lizards are fun look cool and only lack in one department – wackyness.

The empire: jack of all trades, master of none.

What do you mean they master of spam war machines like what does a cannon cost and a mortar jeez spaaaaam.

Lizards are tough and hit hard but are slow as molasses haha.

Hoverboy dont start giving me ideas turn a slaan into hipnotoad that would be fun

Well, I've come to the decision that my only problem with Orcs now are their limited magic trees. I love the models, the concept behind them, and hopefully their fluff if I get the book.

How do you O&G find having the limited trees?


I checked out Lizzies, but their models kind of Bore me.