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Folks,
In a similar vein to this earlier thread, I'm really keen on getting your thoughts on what you perceive to be either the 5 most overcosted or underpowered units or items of wargear in 40k.

If you're not aware, I'm looking to publish a community-driven suppliment for which gamers/clubs/tournaments can 'Opt In' to use - the objective is not to radically alter the game or the mechanics, but by making slight point adjustments it can go some way to balancing out ignored wargear and units to the point where you won't necessarily handicap yourself just by virtue of paying the points for them.

If you can list the top 5 (1. being the most overcosted in your oppinion), I would be in your debt! However, there is one rule that comes with this:

Do not list anything from a codex that is less than a year old. The reason for this is that anything less than a year and it could be argued that there isn't enough experience with the sthrengths and weaknesses of the codex to warrent any changes.

Thanks for help, looking forward to seeing your oppinions!

1 CSM spawn
2 Tau vespid
3 Tau sniper drone teams
4 necron flayed ones
5 Ork flash gits

1: CSM spawn
2: Sisters Repentia
3: Tau Vespid
4: Eldar Swooping Hawks
5: Tau Ethereal

Repentia are close to the most worthless unit I've ever seen.

Vespid have no uses, at all. They're an overly specialized Crisis like unit, that cost more, are less durable, and are much less effective.

Ethereals must be painted with a target on their forehead... I'm pretty sure its in the rulebook... its not? well, it should be. They hurt the army more than help it.

The other two are in there mainly because of reputation, Hawks may be debatable though. I would have put Mandrakes in there, but they're not a year old yet.

Theres plenty of wargear thats 'underpowered'. There is bunch of gear that has literally no use, they do nothing/only affect rules that no longer exist.

1. Aun'Va
2.Ethereals - basically the anti-thesis to Rites of Battle
3.CSM spawn - without servo-armour, these beasts just don't cut it for me anymore...
4.New Grots.. no more cover saves or dangerous-terrain boni to da boyz
5.Inquisitorial Stormtroopers w/ shotguns from Witchhunters

motorhead1945 wrote:
4.New Grots.. no more cover saves or dangerous-terrain boni to da boyz

Hmm? While they don't have a special rule that gives cover anymore... if you put boyz behind a screen of Gretchen, they do get that juicy 4+ cover.

1. Mougul Kamir

Upgrade character for Rough Riders
Gives the unit RAGE! Very bad as the whole point of the unit is counter assault. They need to be held back and then assault when needed, not run at the enemy screaming.
Gives the unit Furious Charge. Supposed to be a bonus, but FC does not affect the hunting lace as it strikes at a set Str and Int.

You pay points to make the unit FAR worse than it was to begin with. Awesome

whoaaaa guys those units are actually not TERRILBE

THE
PYROVORE PYROVORE PYROVORE PYROVORE PYROVORE PYROVORE

is BY FAR the worst unit in 40k, holy *$)# it is FREAKING BAD, even noobs dont take them when they start out !! OMG SO BAD ! :(

Flayed ones are atleast kind of playable, jeeze, you guys obviously haven't looked at nids codex, 1/2 of their units arn't viable in a competitive list.

Space Pope... for answers 1-5

Space Marine Honour guard

Dave_Nz wrote:whoaaaa guys those units are actually not TERRILBE

THE
PYROVORE PYROVORE PYROVORE PYROVORE PYROVORE PYROVORE

is BY FAR the worst unit in 40k, holy *$)# it is FREAKING BAD, even noobs dont take them when they start out !! OMG SO BAD ! :(

Flayed ones are atleast kind of playable, jeeze, you guys obviously haven't looked at nids codex, 1/2 of their units arn't viable in a competitive list.

I would rather have pyrovore than chaos spawns.

porkchop806 wrote:Space Marine Honour guard

Wait what? I can guarantee you that there's a host of worse choices out there.

I don't think anyone's mentioned techpriests/-marines yet. Outside of the GK and possibly the BT Codex they're pretty much pointless.

Hoour Guard are wavy more expensive then avarege squad and afaik only + 1 leadership and the choice for extra weapons and banner...

Further, Meganob armor isnt that good.

Wraiths
Flayed Ones
Pariahs
Solar pulse
Lords

Space pope is pretty much "the" answer here.

Grots underpowered? Theyre a dirt cheap scoring unit...that alone makes them very valuable.

1 Space Pope- he's @#*/%£~{$?#;|@^!
2 Chaos Spawn- they can't really do anything, and they are quite expensive points-wise. Although they are useful to have on your opponent's side after a Gift of Chaos or whatever that psychic power thingy is!
3 Vespids- expensive unit that just run around for a bit and then die.
4 Flash Gitz- they aren't any good, yet they take up a heavy support slot and a chunk of points!
5 Ethereal- they stand there with a ceremonial weapon, die, and make all your tau have spasms.

Mostly tau, but hey!

terranarc wrote:

Dave_Nz wrote:whoaaaa guys those units are actually not TERRILBE

THE
PYROVORE PYROVORE PYROVORE PYROVORE PYROVORE PYROVORE

is BY FAR the worst unit in 40k, holy *$)# it is FREAKING BAD, even noobs dont take them when they start out !! OMG SO BAD ! :(

Flayed ones are atleast kind of playable, jeeze, you guys obviously haven't looked at nids codex, 1/2 of their units arn't viable in a competitive list.

I would rather have pyrovore than chaos spawns.

Not for 50 points each and an elite slot. (probably the most important tyranid slot)

In no particular order: Chaos Spawn, Ethereal, Aun'Va, Tau Honour Blade, Vespid.

thenoobbomb wrote:Hoour Guard are wavy more expensive then avarege squad and afaik only + 1 leadership and the choice for extra weapons and banner...

Further, Meganob armor isnt that good.

Base 2 attacks, 2+ armor save base, power weapon base, for 35 points? That's not bad.

Realistically, as a not *THAT* expensive unit:
10 of these guys, with a thunder hammer, and chapter banner, is 400 points. The same as a full terminator squad. Will dish out 37 standard power weapon attacks, WITHOUT the charge, and 4 thunder hammer attacks. And if you want to be crazy (I know) you can give them a drop pod or rhino because they count as power armor. Bad you say?

chromonotron- 10 points for something that helps necrons with how far they can do a sweeping advance. really?

solar pulse- 20 points ,it either gets rid of nightfighting for necrons for one turn or makes any unit targeting the lord (and any unit it joins) use nightfighting for or one turn. so they will just have to shoot something else...

nightmare shroud- 30 points for something that makes unit within 12" of the lord take a moral check as if it had taken 25% casualties during shooting or fall back... except marines, or armies that dont take moral checks (tyrinids)

tomb spiders- 65 points for WS2 BS2 S6 T6 W3 I2 A3 MC that usually kills itself if you try to use its artificer power (generate scarabs)

heavy destroyer- 55 points for short ranged, moving lascannon

Shrike325 wrote:

thenoobbomb wrote:Hoour Guard are wavy more expensive then avarege squad and afaik only + 1 leadership and the choice for extra weapons and banner...

Further, Meganob armor isnt that good.

Base 2 attacks, 2+ armor save base, power weapon base, for 35 points? That's not bad.

Realistically, as a not *THAT* expensive unit:
10 of these guys, with a thunder hammer, and chapter banner, is 400 points. The same as a full terminator squad. Will dish out 37 standard power weapon attacks, WITHOUT the charge, and 4 thunder hammer attacks. And if you want to be crazy (I know) you can give them a drop pod or rhino because they count as power armor. Bad you say?

Well, AFAIK I cant have 10 of them in myu BA army and they dont have a 2+ armor save..

The most worthless upgrade?
Stikkbombs. Orks always strike last, except against stuff that can't hurt them much anyways. Also Stikkbomb chukkas are always less expensive.

Well to be fair, going last against a blob of guardsman instead of at the same time because of terrain really sucks.

But yeah, the chukka is always better.

Sabet wrote:Wraiths
Flayed Ones
Pariahs
Solar pulse
Lords

You may want to check dash combat reports before putting wraiths there...

lol'd

thenoobbomb wrote:

Shrike325 wrote:

thenoobbomb wrote:Hoour Guard are wavy more expensive then avarege squad and afaik only + 1 leadership and the choice for extra weapons and banner...

Further, Meganob armor isnt that good.

Base 2 attacks, 2+ armor save base, power weapon base, for 35 points? That's not bad.

Realistically, as a not *THAT* expensive unit:
10 of these guys, with a thunder hammer, and chapter banner, is 400 points. The same as a full terminator squad. Will dish out 37 standard power weapon attacks, WITHOUT the charge, and 4 thunder hammer attacks. And if you want to be crazy (I know) you can give them a drop pod or rhino because they count as power armor. Bad you say?

Well, AFAIK I cant have 10 of them in myu BA army and they dont have a 2+ armor save..

So you're talking about BA Honour Guard, which are pretty damn good?

1: Pariahs (Die like Guardsmen)
2: Kabalite Warriors (Can't kill anything that they don't outnumber 20:1)
3: Swooping Hawks (Expensive and F*%@ing useless)
4: Shadowsun (Too many points for a stealth team equivalent)
5: Eldar Support Weapon Platforms (what sort of artillery has G24" range for a decent gun and 36" for the bad one. There is a G48" gun, but it's about effective as Inter-Continental-Ballistic-Marshmallows)

And I can't understand all the Ethereal hate. They exist to take BS 4 Fire Warriors and to let you re-roll your morale as you wish. Not many units are useful even in death, but an Ethereal allows tau to counter their weak point: their rediculously low WS. Just keep your units capable of regrouping (bonding knife) in case they do run. Simple!

Ethereals can have a single Honour Guard of 6-12 Fire Warriors who pay an extra 2pts for BS4. They now cost more than a Sister of Battle, who has greater weapon skill, the same BS, same strength, same toughness, greater Initiative, greater leadership and a better armour save.

The morale re-roll is pointless too, any shooting will likely be directed at the Crisis Suits, who will either be out of LoS of the Ethereal or dead by the time they're done being shot, and combat will kill most, if not all Tau units in a single phase; whatever survives, if anything, will be at too small of a capacity to further do anything, and might as well have died.

As for countering their WS in death, it requires them to first take a morale check if they're not in combat or falling back (these units will not gain any benefit, since they did not fulfill the criteria required for Preferred Enemy by taking the test). Those that fail need to re-group on LD7, 8 if you have a bonding knife (since you'll obviously have a Shas'ui).

However, since we strike last against pretty much everything, a good number of models will die before we get to strike back, and there's nothing that guarentees those re-rolls will do anything.

It wouldn't be as bad if it affected Kroot, but no, the only Tau unit with a bit of combat ability is specifically noted to not be affected.

Instead of relying on an Ethereal and sheer luck, why not simply use the points on a another shas'el who will actually be able to contribute to the game instead of standing back with a sign that says "Shoot Me."?

1. Chaos spawn
2. Bloodbrides
3. Mandrakes
4. Chaos Bikers
5. Summoned greater daemons

lowmanjason wrote:solar pulse- 20 points ,it either gets rid of nightfighting for necrons for one turn or makes any unit targeting the lord (and any unit it joins) use nightfighting for or one turn. so they will just have to shoot something else...

In Dawn of War deployment, having one more turn of shooting than your enemies is massively worth it. Not to mention protecting your wraithwing/scarabwing as you charge up the field.

lowmanjason wrote:
nightmare shroud- 30 points for something that makes unit within 12" of the lord take a moral check as if it had taken 25% casualties during shooting or fall back... except marines, or armies that dont take moral checks (tyrinids)

OK not great, but can synergise with the Pariah Ld-sapping ability (although I've never made it work)

lowmanjason wrote:
tomb spiders- 65 points for WS2 BS2 S6 T6 W3 I2 A3 MC that usually kills itself if you try to use its artificer power (generate scarabs)

Aside from not being able to take in groups (so giving cheap killpoints), Tomb spyders are awesome simply because they are 55 points. There arent many MCs that come so cheap, plus the scarab spawn is incredibly useful for generating a T6 3 wound decoy. 1/6 chance of 1 wound is not "usually"

lowmanjason wrote:

heavy destroyer- 55 points for short ranged, moving lascannon

Overpriced I admit (65 - you are mixing up Tomb Spider and HD), but one of our few real anti-tank units, so can't complain too much. The mobility can be surprisingly useful - enemies often don't expect your heavy support units to turbo-boost across the field and contest an objective late game!

necrons are a weak army, but its the high cost of everything, most especially the Warriors which fold quickly in combat that screws them - its not fair to say that practically all our choices are useless.

Anyway, to pick some that I havent seen in this thread so far:

(1) Beasts of Nurgle. Inferior Plaguebearer that can't score and uses a valuable elite slot. I challenge anyone to justify ever taking these.
(2) Collectively all the tau wargear options that help with target priority (not an opinion. They are, literally, completely useless)
(3) Grot riggers in vehicle squadrons. Doesn't work (except for the last vehicle) as you can't get immobilised.
(4) Posessed
(5) Chaos Dreadnoughts. Get a 5 point discount for something that is likely to blow your own army up.

Mark.

Cheeslord wrote:

lowmanjason wrote:solar pulse- 20 points ,it either gets rid of nightfighting for necrons for one turn or makes any unit targeting the lord (and any unit it joins) use nightfighting for or one turn. so they will just have to shoot something else...

In Dawn of War deployment, having one more turn of shooting than your enemies is massively worth it. Not to mention protecting your wraithwing/scarabwing as you charge up the field.

funny, I've only rolled that scenerio once and still didnt use because MY ARMY LIST IS BUILT BEFORE YOU ROLL FOR THE SCENERIO!!! and im not taking that piece of crap "just in case"

lowmanjason wrote:
nightmare shroud- 30 points for something that makes unit within 12" of the lord take a moral check as if it had taken 25% casualties during shooting or fall back... except marines, or armies that dont take moral checks (tyrinids)

OK not great, but can synergise with the Pariah Ld-sapping ability (although I've never made it work)

so what you're saying is...

lowmanjason wrote:
tomb spiders- 65 points for WS2 BS2 S6 T6 W3 I2 A3 MC that usually kills itself if you try to use its artificer power (generate scarabs)

Aside from not being able to take in groups (so giving cheap killpoints), Tomb spyders are awesome simply because they are 55 points. There arent many MCs that come so cheap, plus the scarab spawn is incredibly useful for generating a T6 3 wound decoy. 1/6 chance of 1 wound is not "usually"

first of, my appoligies for the points mix up. second, it was my understanding that 5th ed uses the "majority toughness" rule making it a T3 monsterous creature vulnerable to blasts. and the thing with it always killing itself, well that has alway just been my experience.

lowmanjason wrote:

heavy destroyer- 55 points for short ranged, moving lascannon

Overpriced I admit (65 - you are mixing up Tomb Spider and HD), but one of our few real anti-tank units, so can't complain too much. The mobility can be surprisingly useful - enemies often don't expect your heavy support units to turbo-boost across the field and contest an objective late game!

one shot per turn. that means 1-5 shots only and all on the same target. and i usually miss or dont even glance with them, and all the people i have played really really like to assault them which, i know, they should be able to assault something like a destroyer, but the usually find a way to surround them and kill them (drop pods) and lascannons still outrange and kill them by 12". again thats just my experience though"

necrons are a weak army, but its the high cost of everything, most especially the Warriors which fold quickly in combat that screws them - its not fair to say that practically all our choices are useless.


Mark.