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SM snipers vs SM terminators


Q1 say we have 5 x SM terminators (any flavor ) marching down the table towards 10 x SM (vanilla) snipers ....will the termies ever touch base ?

Q2 how many scout snipers would you need to take down 10 hot shot terminators in a single turn ?

Q3 whats the best HQ , HQ combo or addition one could make to the scout snipers that will help them nail terminators , hopefully at range ?

Depends how far away they start.

120.

None.

swuk wrote:Q1 say we have 5 x SM terminators (any flavor ) marching down the table towards 10 x SM (vanilla) snipers ....will the termies ever touch base ?

Yes in almost all circumstances, assuming they're footslogging.

swuk wrote:Q2 how many scout snipers would you need to take down 10 hot shot terminators in a single turn ?

Too many. Relying on the Rending rule is not advisable. Assuming though you applied some Mathammer and Averages into it then:
10 snipers
10 shots
BS3 means half hit, so 5 hits
Wounds on 4's mean 2/3 wound, so lets say 4 wounds. Of that 1/6 will be Rending so lets say 1 Rending wound.
So 3 armour saves at 2+ means 0.5 kills, most likely is 0. Of the Rending you get a 5+ invun, 2/3 chance of fail.
So from 10 shots there's potentil for around 1 kill a turn. Assuming averages, you'd need around 100 or more to get the amount of kills you want... which you can't.

swuk wrote:Q3 whats the best HQ , HQ combo or addition one could make to the scout snipers that will help them nail terminators , hopefully at range ?

Master of the Forge is about as rangey as it gets for HQ's, so really the answer's no. I'd add scout sarge Telion to the unit and an ML and then try and go from there. Honestly shooting 10 termis with Snipers is a bit pointless - believe me, I've tried. Best to break out the plasma from Tac squads.

Scouts are better for taking out high-toughness opponents - my brother put 3 wounds on the C'tan Nightbringer with a unit of 8 Snipers in one turn.

I can answer question 2.

Let's find the probability that a Scout with a Sniper Rifle kills a standard (ie 5+ invul) Terminator:

He has a .5 probability to hit. Of those hits, on a 4 or 5 he wounds, and the Terminator takes a 2+ save. On a 6, he rends, and the Terminator takes a 5+ save. The probability of an unsaved wound is thus: 1/2*(1/3*1/6 + 1/6*2/3) = 1/12. So each shot kills one-twelth of a Terminator on average. The Sarge, however, has BS4, so his probability is 2/3*(1/3*1/6 + 1/6*2/3) = 1/9. So in one round of shooting, a 10 man squad will kill 9*1/12 + 1/9 = .861 Terminators. You'd need about 116 shots to kill 10 Terminators.

By the way, the probability of getting at least one kill in a round of shooting is about .594. So a little more than 40% of the time, you'll do no damage.

The bottom line is that Sniper Scouts are not going to be much of a shooting threat against anything besides something with T6 or higher with no cover or invul save. The main strength of Scouts as I see it is that with Cloaks, they are really hard to kill with shooting. I suppose their other strength is first turn charge shenanigans via a Land Speeder Storm, but I've never faced that tactic and I don't play vanilla Marines.

what if i have a librarian with/near the scouts.

would that help take the terminators down ?

Sergeant Telion as the scout sergeant ( 50 points ) & swap 1 sniper rifle for a rocket launcher ( heavy bolter no good then even with hellfire shells ?)
Cloaks on scouts 3pts each



Im thinking of fielding 20 sniper scouts close enough to hit the same target which shouldn't be too hard given their long range...while scouts can dream of dropping termies like flies , perhaps with 20 of them boosted by specials they may cramp the terminators style a little. My secondary thought.

It looks like that unless have no other targets for the scouts to go for they may as well go hand to hand with the termies lol

Why take scouts at all btw?

Wouldn't your libby be better used elsewhere than standing next to some scouts.

ref Why take scouts at all btw?

more fool me , lol , they look and sound cooler than they actually are. Mildly annoying as i bought 2 packs of snipers this week. I prefer bigger armies , strategic over tactical wargaming wise ( new to 40k as you can tell ) .... meant to say librarian in 'affecting' range of the scouts targets , forcing the terminator target to re roll inv saves i think



The advantage being , scouts can lay down an extra barrage of fire across the quadrant of the battlefield the scouts reside in , hopefully whittling down the enemy where he is doing me most damage and thus preventing excess losses. Scouts being a tad cheaper means i can field a few extra long range guns on the battlefield , or take those points and beef up some units elsewhere to ward off the effects of mildly bad dice

n'2 rule and all that ...or all guns firing all the time

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanchester%27s_laws

All right, let's assume the Librarian uses Null Zone to force a re-roll of invul saves, you take Telion, who has a 3 shot wound on 2+ Heavy Bolter, and a regular Heavy Bolter. The Heavy Bolter is going to be better than a Missile Launcher vs. TEQ unless your opponent is a moron and doesn't space them out at all. Tellion has BS5, right?

You have 8 sniper shots per 10 man squad, 3 Heavy Bolter shots, and 3 Hellfire shots.

Probability of a HB shot killing: 1/2*2/3*1/6 = 1/18

Probability of a Hellfire shot killing: 5/6*5/6*1/6 = 25/216

New Probability of a sniper round killing: 1/2*(1/3*1/6 + 1/6*8/9) = .1018

So, now you kill a total of 8*.1018+ 3*1/18 + 3*25/216 = 1.32 Terminators per turn. You will kill at least one Terminator about 75% of the time.

To see how bad this is, let's assume the Terminators need 4 turns to get to you, which is probably generous. You'd kill 5 over the four turns. The other 5 will completely ruin you in CC once they get there. I'm assuming no return shooting, by the way, which is sort of reasonable as the Scouts should be in cover, so the Termies probably have better targets.

You've spent 230 on the Scouts, assuming they have Camo Cloaks, and they killed 200 points of Terminators. So, you're losing the battle of attrition. It's worse if the Terminators are shooting at something else as they move up, as they are killing your stuff and that has to go in their column.

I really believe that the major strength of Scouts is their ability to be a cheap, resilient way to hold an objective.

At any rate, does your opponent actually march Terminators across the field at you? Why aren't they in a Land Raider, or Deep Striking? Or, if he uses regular Terminators with a Cyclone launcher, why are they moving up?

Don't forget the pinning.

put that in your maths (and smoke it)

The chance for 8 snipers to kill 5 terminators is 0.04 percent so it will happen once about every 2500 times.

If you take telion the rest of his squad gets the stealth cloaks for free, therefor he is essentially free in a 10 scout unit. I personally dont think scouts are the best way to handle termis. Better to hit em with w/ a vindicator backed up by a librarian with null zone. Or rapid fire two squads of marines on them.

Ajroo wrote:Don't forget the pinning.

put that in your maths (and smoke it)

Agreed. Snipers only need to kill one and then have termies fail their pinning test. Job done.

5 man sniper squad is less than 100 points for an objective holding squad. 5 termies are more than double and not troops to boot. Try comparing a scout squad and 100 points of something else good - say a las-pred or thunderfire cannon.

ref If you take telion the rest of his squad gets the stealth cloaks for free..thanks i missed that

cloaks 3 points x 10 = 30

Sarge Telion = 50 points 5 BS 6 WS ( + 1BS , +2 WS over a normal sarge ) plus extra powers http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Sergeant_Telion

From the 5th edition codex it looks like only 1 ? heavy weapon can be taken. 1 ML , or 1 Hbolter (with hellfire shells) ...adding 5 extra scout troops makes no difference

= sarge +3 snipers + heavy weapon(10p) @ 85 points ( for cloaks add 3p each = 100p total )
= Telion +9 snipers + heavy weapon(10p) @ 200 ( cloaks come for free ) I think Telion's stalker pattern boltgun = 36" range str 4, AP5 heavy 2 so 1 squad of 10 or 2 of 5 is very close stat & $ wise





agreed scout sniper vs terminators not the best show in town. Even in the best case scenario , 10 sniper scouts can dent 5 termies footslogging but not deter...unless you fluke 2 hits in single rnd of fire

This thread is about , how bad they are vs termies , and how best to set-them up them in this specific scenario...i doubt the termies will spend their lives chasing scouts around the board...if i got my scouts shooting them in the back i wanted to get a feel for how effective they would be at this task

If those same termies are in a vehicle the answer is going to be that you can't even touch them with snipers.

Just say no to 5th Ed scout snipers. BS3 really hamstrung this already wimpy unit. I have a whole bunch of snipers that i got because they looked cool. They have done far more by running to objectives in the backfield than they have ever done by shooting.

Honestly, you might be better off with bolters against most targets. You'd still wound on 4s vs MEQ and TEQ (and 3 against GEQ!) and you could double tap and move and shoot.

Oooh also 500th post! woot!

And if the termies have Storm Shields then it's even harder to sniper them down.

From what everyone is saying it looks like the codex for sniper scouts needs a rewrite

They do not "behave" in the manner you would expect of a real world military unit.


It would be better if they where more effective , even if they where more expensive.

A super sniper gun , maybe carried by devastator type squads would turn them into an effective unit to field.

They should be able to easily hurt weak infantry units..so can be deployed as an anti horde unit and have a deterrent effect against strong units , HQ , Terminators

Im disappointed that the rather cool looking sniper scouts dont fill their expected role on the table.

Devastator snipers , or Lone Snipers would work well. A 50point single unit elite sniper would be a nice cherry to deploy, consider.

Scout Snipers are best used as an objective-sitting, harrowing unit. Bang them in cover with Camo Cloaks with some HBs and rifles, use them to annoy the hell out of enemy stragglers.

Extra points if you have a Thunderfire Cannon or Techmarine and use his Bolster Defences to give them a 2+ cover save in their building of choice!

I am going to have to disagree with everyone else here it seems. Scout snipers perhaps the best troop unit that SM get. 85 points gets you 3 bs3 snipers, 1 bs4 sniper, and a missile launcher. This scoring squad can outflank if needed for a distant objective, infiltrate/scout to get the best possible firing angle turn 1, and the sniper rifle can and will damage tanks like rhinos. Plus they are fantastic versus t6+ creatures, can pin, and can rend 2+ armor.

I think the thing people miss is how hard things in 40k are to kill in general. Take the termie unit. How many bs4 bolters does it take to expect to kill 10 terminators? Well 10 wounds is 60 armor saves, 120 hits, 180 shots. Does this mean dont shoot bolters at terminators? NO! Do shoot your bolters, as every bit helps.

After all, it takes 120 bs3 sniper shots to do what it takes 180 bolter shots to do. Plus you can pin the termies with snipers, and your 36 inch range engagement range keeps you safer from return fire.

For 75 points a razorback with lascannon and TL plasmagun is going to be FAR more reliable at putting ranged wounds on terminators. Plus it can hold a scoring squad and move and shoot.

Sure, scouts are pretty good at camping backfield objectives and they have a 2/3 chance of outflanking where you want, but there are so many things that 85 points is better spent on. For example, a dakka predator, which will also reliably put out far more wounds than a sniper squad.

Things that would make sniper scouts perhaps slightly more viable: return to BS4, give all sniper rifles the ability to pick out targets (like Telion's eye of vengence), perhaps let it hit on a 3+ vs T3 and below.

When i saw this thread I lol'd.

My snipers (bought because they looked cool) have only been played in 3 games, they've caused a whopping 4 wounds total, and one glancing hit vs a dread (w/ML) the wounds were all saved and the dread saved his glance a 4+ from smoke launchers. so I've taken this 85-100 pt unit 3 times and not gotten a single point back.

I just don't see how they could do anything ever against terminators, plus if their not assault terminators they could outshoot you when they get to 24inchs. I guess this kind of makes fluffy since, since termys have been fighting for years and scouts are just starting.


EDIT:

The scouts did score an objective for me one game, they sat on my home objective and got wittled down to a single guy, and he survived without running. So i guess +1 for a good objective hugging unit.

swuk wrote:
Sarge Telion = 50 points 5 BS 6 WS

Telion is actually BS 6 WS 5. He's the only character in the SM Codex with BS 6 also.

But back on topic, Sniper Scouts aren't that reliable against Terminators. Like everyone has been mathhammering at, the odds are stacked against you, even with Telion in the unit. Statistically, you will probably kill 1 before they finally reach you and wipe out your Scout Squad.

Sniper Squads are best for taking down units with modified Toughness higher than 4. With Telion in the unit, they become mildly more effective from his higher BS and "Eye of Vengeance" Special Rule. "Voice of Experience" can be helpful with a ML added to the group, but again, only a mild improvement at best (usually because I have more reliable sources of Anti-Tank in my list).

My advice would be to allocate your AP 2 or 1 weapons against Terminators. Plasma weapons work best since they come in Blast and Rapid Fire form. Force them to make enough Invul Saves, and even TH/SS Terminators will go down.

slightly off topic

Is there any unit in the game that snipers are awesome against ?

swuk wrote:slightly off topic

Is there any unit in the game that snipers are awesome against ?

Some monstrous creatures. Ogryn. It's a fixed roll to wound so it's comparatively best against high toughness.

Like I said earlier, C'tan. They're as effective vs C'tan as a krak missile.

Snipers are awesome versus everything... I think people consantly forget that snipers are a small arm, and small arms are basicly worthless in 40k. However, snipers are the exception... the greatest range of all small arms, rending unlike all other small arms, pinning, AND wound on 4+. They also can damage up to av12. So yeah, best small arm in the game. Only other one that comes close is the s5 stormbolter that Grey Knights can pay for.

Wanting 100% Clarification ref Sgt Telion




1 )Does Telions ability gives came cloaks for free to all squad members ?

2 )If squad is split upon deployment then the 5 scouts no longer with Telion lose there free cloaks ?

3 ) What weapons can Telion carry ? Sniper rifle ? what else ?

4 ) What order are enemy wounds placed , Telion can select which individual enemy model takes hits.



...there is so much confusion over wh40k rules its just a joke

1) in essence yes, the unit gets stealth.

2)yes, only the bit with Telion gets stealth.

3)his funky bolter. effectively a better sniper rifle, thats all he can get, but pretty good.

4)Yes, you can allocate Telion's wounds, unlike normal.

I find running 10 with Telion and a ML useful. not amazing, but irritating for opponents to deal with.

swuk wrote:more fool me , lol , they look and sound cooler than they actually are. Mildly annoying as i bought 2 packs of snipers this week. I prefer bigger armies , strategic over tactical wargaming wise ( new to 40k as you can tell ) .... meant to say librarian in 'affecting' range of the scouts targets , forcing the terminator target to re roll inv saves i think



The advantage being , scouts can lay down an extra barrage of fire across the quadrant of the battlefield the scouts reside in , hopefully whittling down the enemy where he is doing me most damage and thus preventing excess losses. Scouts being a tad cheaper means i can field a few extra long range guns on the battlefield , or take those points and beef up some units elsewhere to ward off the effects of mildly bad dice

Perhaps you should take a look at Imperial Guard. As by the sounds of it you may like them more.
As for snipers in general in 40k, they're just there to fight off the MCs most of the time. They used to be alright, but they're fairly worthless in 5th edition due to changes to the abundance of cover and the sniper rule itself. Better off usually going for missile launchers to deal with the MCs anyway as it also adds in a decent weapon to fight off the hordes that will usually acompany the MCs as well as allowing the list to be more balanced and capable of dealing with more kinds of threats from the various other lists and factions.