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This is a hypothetical question regarding how using Lash while attached to a shooting unit. I am not advocating using Thousand Sons, nor mixing Marks in squads.

Lash of Submission is a psychic power used during the Shooting phase that moves enemy models around the table, I am sure everyone here is well aware of how this power works. The scenario is as follows: A unit of Thousand Sons with a Lash Sorcerer wish to open fire on a squad of Space Marines currently hiding in cover. The Sorcerer Lashes the Marines out of cover and into the open, pass their Pinning check and the Thousand Sons fire on that squad with their AP3 bolters.

Do the Space Marines get a Cover Save because Shooting attacks from one squad are resolved simultaneously or can you Lash first and then fire because Lash of Submission isn't a Shooting attack as there is no BS check or wounds caused. This is an interesting question that has been raised on another forum and I thought I would bring it here to see what the Dakka Dakka community's thoughts on this hypothetical situation. I am currently leaning towards the latter resolution but I would love to hear arguments from both sides, or new arguments regarding the scenario in general.

You can use Lash to get the guys out of cover and then use the Vengeance Rounds to full effect with no cover saves.

In order for this to be completely effective you need the sorc to be in a different unit and use lash, then after thats resolved use the thousand sons to shoot them.

But it's a tactic I've used before. Nercons hated it.

Valkyrie wrote:You can use Lash to get the guys out of cover and then use the Vengeance Rounds to full effect with no cover saves.

juraigamer wrote:In order for this to be completely effective you need the sorc to be in a different unit and use lash, then after thats resolved use the thousand sons to shoot them.

But it's a tactic I've used before. Nercons hated it.

Two contradictory answers so far. If it isn't too much to ask, could both of you elaborate further as to why you came to the conclusions you did? It would be helpful to advancing the debate.

Well my elaborationis that you resolve the effects of the Lash first, which would be to move the target out of cover, then once that is complete, you would resolve the Ap3 Bolts afterwards as they are two seperate weapons.

As Lash is apparently now NOT a shooting attack, nothing stops you from:

1) Lashing the unit
2) Shooting the unit

In that order.

Yes, they are two separate weapons, but only one single unit. As far as I know, one single unit fires simultaneously. Unless Lash has a specific rule overriding that, the marines would get cover because when they were chosen as a target by the UNIT, they were in cover.

We have a tendency to roll for each weapon separately in order to keep everything organized, but they still happen at the same time. In order for the lash to bring them out of cover, you have to have the sorcerer in a separate unit.

It's the same reason you can't shoot the melts gun from a group of greyhunters at a rhino, pop it, then rapid fire the contents with the rest of the greyhunters from the same unit.

As long as you attack after the crew, you have fulfilled Thundercrush.

So it is an issue of choice - you can attack at I2, I1 or effectively ASL, as long as this is after the crew

You can also likely use the "person who's turn it is" rule for determining who decides when you attack; if its your turn, you decide when it attacks.

Lash is just used in the Shooting Phase. It is not a Shooting attack, therefor it can be used on a unit, then the rest of the unit can fire. Unless a new FAQ is released this is how it will work.

Lunchmoney wrote:Yes, they are two separate weapons, but only one single unit. As far as I know, one single unit fires simultaneously. Unless Lash has a specific rule overriding that, the marines would get cover because when they were chosen as a target by the UNIT, they were in cover.

We have a tendency to roll for each weapon separately in order to keep everything organized, but they still happen at the same time. In order for the lash to bring them out of cover, you have to have the sorcerer in a separate unit.

It's the same reason you can't shoot the melts gun from a group of greyhunters at a rhino, pop it, then rapid fire the contents with the rest of the greyhunters from the same unit.

lash is not a shooting attack, so you can lash the unit out of cover and then shoot it with the Sorceror's squad.

he could even lash a completely different unit from the squad his unit shoots at.


or, he could lash a unit and then assault a different one.

There is an important distinction to be made however, Doombolt, Winds of Chaos and Bolt of Change all mention that with a successful psychic test they count as a weapon. Lash of Submission does not, which is why it shouldn't be counted as a Shooting attack and thus can be used either before or after the rest of the unit has fired at the target.

This may be a bit picky but it says you may use lash "instead of ANOTHER ranged weapon".

I know the FAQ now defines psychic shooting attacks but this reads to me as implying this is meant to be a shooting, possibly a case of specific>general?

just because something can be used/done instead of shooting doesn't mean it is shooting.


you can Run instead of shooting, that doesn't mean running is the same as shooting.


the FAQ has the final word on this and has said that Lash is NOT a PSA. FAQ is more specific then the Rule Book in all cases.

Grey Templar wrote:just because something can be used/done instead of shooting doesn't mean it is shooting.


you can Run instead of shooting, that doesn't mean running is the same as shooting.


the FAQ has the final word on this and has said that Lash is NOT a PSA. FAQ is more specific then the Rule Book in all cases.

it doesn't say may be used instead of shooting, it says instead of "another" ranged weapon implying it is a ranged weapon, otherwise it would just say instead of a ranged weapon.

and it's the chaos codex not the rule book so it would be >the BRB FAQ as it is more specific.

Valkyrie wrote:Well my elaborationis that you resolve the effects of the Lash first, which would be to move the target out of cover, then once that is complete, you would resolve the Ap3 Bolts afterwards as they are two seperate weapons.

This is the correct answer but the wrong explanation.

If they were two separate weapons, then the two effects would be resolved simultaneously. However, Lash of Submission is not a Psychic Shooting Attack, so it may be used before or after the unit shoots.

spongemonkee wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:just because something can be used/done instead of shooting doesn't mean it is shooting.


you can Run instead of shooting, that doesn't mean running is the same as shooting.


the FAQ has the final word on this and has said that Lash is NOT a PSA. FAQ is more specific then the Rule Book in all cases.

it doesn't say may be used instead of shooting, it says instead of "another" ranged weapon implying it is a ranged weapon, otherwise it would just say instead of a ranged weapon.

and it's the chaos codex not the rule book so it would be >the BRB FAQ as it is more specific.

Implication it might be, but the FAQ says otherwise.


GW says it isn't a PSA, so it isn't. you may not agree with them, but its the rules.


I don't agree with the way they FAQ'd Falchions, but i am forced to bow to their rules interpertation. You as well can do nothing against what the FAQ says.

Sponge - it has always been assumed to be a PSA, due to that line you mention

HOwever GW have defined that ONLY if it states it is a PSA, or has a profile of one, is it a PSA. Silly...

And that pretty much settles the debate for me. Before I made this thread I didn't know that GW had recently revised their 5th Edition Rules FAQ, and the fact that it definitely does not count as a shooting attack makes it possible to Lash a unit out of cover and deny their saves against weapons that ignore their armor, even by models in the same unit as the Sorcerer.

I would like to thank everyone who commented on this thread with your ideas and musings, it is always good to be allowed to see things from other people's points of view.