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Let us keep this simple and declaratory with little to no retort.

A Kustom force field claims that all vehicles within 6" are obscured. Let's say I have a Battle wagon within 6" in a wide open field. A marine also standing in a wide open field shoots my wagon with a lascannon. There is nothing between wagon and marine.

What cover save do you believe that the Battle Wagon would get and why?

My answer: a 4+ cover save. A vehicle who's body is 50% out of LOS is obscured and gets 4+ cover save. If you can't see the armor facing that you intend to shoot but can see another facing, said armor save is now a 3+

Please explain to me why an obscured vehicle would NOT get a 4+ cover save.

I agree, 4+ cover. Should work exactly like a Rhino that has poped smoke....

Pretty much everyone agrees on 4+ save. This debate was settled eons ago I believe.

Also, is someone arguing otherwise?

terranarc wrote:My answer: a 4+ cover save. A vehicle who's body is 50% out of LOS is obscured and gets 4+ cover save.

Incorrect. A vehicle which is 50% obscured gets a cover save of 5+, 4+ or 3+ depending on what's obscuring it.

This is a very common misconception.

Scott-S6 wrote:

terranarc wrote:My answer: a 4+ cover save. A vehicle who's body is 50% out of LOS is obscured and gets 4+ cover save.

Incorrect. A vehicle which is 50% obscured gets a cover save of 5+, 4+ or 3+ depending on what's obscuring it.

This is a very common misconception.

Cite your page number...

Scott-S6 wrote:

terranarc wrote:My answer: a 4+ cover save. A vehicle who's body is 50% out of LOS is obscured and gets 4+ cover save.

Incorrect. A vehicle which is 50% obscured gets a cover save of 5+, 4+ or 3+ depending on what's obscuring it.

This is a very common misconception.

Indeed. The KFF provides a 5+ cover save and make vehicles count as obscured. As a value for the cover save is specified, the default of 4+ doesn't apply.


No one plays it that way though.

It's also optional how you define the cover saves ie terrain. Playing everything as 4+ is very simple and avoids arguments. Do you really want to be arguing about whether that fence is made of metal or wood during a game?

Also, the guy who wrote the codex plays it as 4+, that's good enough for me.

Anubis_513 wrote:I agree, 4+ cover. Should work exactly like a Rhino that has poped smoke....

Wow, I haven't even thought about that. Do smoke launchers specifically say 4+ cover save or just "obscured"?

Scott-S6 wrote:

terranarc wrote:My answer: a 4+ cover save. A vehicle who's body is 50% out of LOS is obscured and gets 4+ cover save.

Incorrect. A vehicle which is 50% obscured gets a cover save of 5+, 4+ or 3+ depending on what's obscuring it.
This is a very common misconception.

Ooooooh I see, so that's where the dispute is coming from. Very clever. So what you're saying is that a vehicle can be "obscured" in multiple ways that give different cover saves yeah? Hm... well.. that still doesn't say what kind of a save they would get. Are you arguing 5+? 4+? 3+? I mean the middle ground is 4+ anyway.

Scott-S6 wrote:

terranarc wrote:My answer: a 4+ cover save. A vehicle who's body is 50% out of LOS is obscured and gets 4+ cover save.

Incorrect. A vehicle which is 50% obscured gets a cover save of 5+, 4+ or 3+ depending on what's obscuring it.

This is a very common misconception.

This does not sound right at all.

Obscured via smoke or KFF is a 4+ by RAW isn't it? The pnly changes to them would be if LoS cannot be drawn to the facing arc but another facing can be seen.

terranarc wrote:Ooooooh I see, so that's where the dispute is coming from. Very clever. So what you're saying is that a vehicle can be "obscured" in multiple ways that give different cover saves yeah? Hm... well.. that still doesn't say what kind of a save they would get. Are you arguing 5+? 4+? 3+? I mean the middle ground is 4+ anyway.

Playing devil's advocate here, as I don't play Orks, and don't really care when I play against Ork players.

Page 62 of the rulebook:

"If a special rule or a piece of wargear confers to a vehicle the ability of being obscured even if in the open, this is a 4+ cover save, unless specified otherwise in the Codex."

KFF makes vehicles obscured. It also specifies a cover save. That's all that rule cares about.

Also note that this is the only piece of wargear, special rule, psychic power, etc. (that I can think of) that both specifies that it obscures vehicles and also states a specific cover save.

-Tau can make vehicles count as obscured.
-BA/SW give just a cover save (remember when they came out and people argued vehicles didn't get the save? This is why)
-Smoke Launchers just give obscured status

Scott-S6 wrote:

terranarc wrote:My answer: a 4+ cover save. A vehicle who's body is 50% out of LOS is obscured and gets 4+ cover save.

Incorrect. A vehicle which is 50% obscured gets a cover save of 5+, 4+ or 3+ depending on what's obscuring it.

This is a very common misconception.

While true, the paragraph that immediately follows this (p62, left column, bottom of the page) states that "if a special rule or piece of wargear confers to a vehicle the ability of being obscured even in the open, this is a 4+ cover save unless otherwise specified in the Codex."

The wording of KFF is not explicitly clear whether or not the 5+ cover save is specifying against the default 4+ cover save, hence why there was a debate about this way back when.

EDIT: Ninja'd

Brother Ramses wrote:This does not sound right at all.

-Turn to page 62.
-Read it, starting at Vehicles and Cover - Obscured Targets
-???
-Profit!

Doesn't the KFF just give the obscured status to vehicles? It states that it grants units within 6" a 5+ cover save. end of rule. Also all vehicles within 6" count as obscured. The obscured status grants a 4+ save....

The BA and SW powers bypass the general rules on how a vehicle gets a cover save by being obscured and outright grants them a cover save by the RAW in their codexes. This falls under the page 62 reference above as the KFF.

Seems fairly simple;

If a vehicle is 50% obscured by another vehicle or terrain, it gets the standard obscured cover save.

If the vehicle is obscured or granted a cover save by a codex exception to the general rules for granting a cover save to vehicles, it gets the codex specific cover save.

Allied units within range are a 5+ cover, but vehicles become obscured, so 4+ cover.

The KFF affects units and vehicles in a different way. It in no way implies that the obscured vehicle gets a 5+ save. It simply states that the vehicle counts as obscured, which the main rulebook tells us grants a 4+ save.

juraigamer wrote:Allied units within range are a 5+ cover, but vehicles become obscured, so 4+ cover.

Allied units within range are 5+ cover. 5+ cover is specified, as such obscured grants the 5+ save to the vehicles.

Brother Ramses wrote:If a vehicle is 50% obscured by another vehicle or terrain, it gets the standard obscured cover save.

If the vehicle is obscured or granted a cover save by a codex exception to the general rules for granting a cover save to vehicles, it gets the codex specific cover save.

You actually got a lot of details wrong there:

If a vehicle is 50% obscured by other units, it will get a 4+, because that's what the rules are for units granting cover to other units.
If a vehicle is 50% obscured by terrain, it will get a save that is equal to the save provided by the terrain type, i.e. 5+ or hedge, 4+ for buildings, 3+ for fortification. Just because so many people ignore the idea that different terrain gives a different cover save doesn't mean that you can forget important details of the rules.

And as I stated above, the KFF does provide a specific save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Anubis_513 wrote:The KFF affects units and vehicles in a different way. It in no way implies that the obscured vehicle gets a 5+ save. It simply states that the vehicle counts as obscured, which the main rulebook tells us grants a 4+ save unless the rule provides a specific save.

Fixed that for you.

AlmightyWalrus ,
Allied units within range are 5+ cover. 5+ cover is specified, as such obscured grants the 5+ save to the vehicles.

but the KFF does not grant a cover save to the vehicle at all, it gives the vehicle the obscured status. It is the status of obscured that grants the cover save, not the KFF itself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

somerandomdude,
2011/06/20 14:17:27 Subject: KFF'ed vehicle's cover save. 4+ or not?

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Brother Ramses wrote:
If a vehicle is 50% obscured by another vehicle or terrain, it gets the standard obscured cover save.

If the vehicle is obscured or granted a cover save by a codex exception to the general rules for granting a cover save to vehicles, it gets the codex specific cover save.


You actually got a lot of details wrong there:

If a vehicle is 50% obscured by other units, it will get a 4+, because that's what the rules are for units granting cover to other units.
If a vehicle is 50% obscured by terrain, it will get a save that is equal to the save provided by the terrain type, i.e. 5+ or hedge, 4+ for buildings, 3+ for fortification. Just because so many people ignore the idea that different terrain gives a different cover save doesn't mean that you can forget important details of the rules.

And as I stated above, the KFF does provide a specific save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Anubis_513 wrote:
The KFF affects units and vehicles in a different way. It in no way implies that the obscured vehicle gets a 5+ save. It simply states that the vehicle counts as obscured, which the main rulebook tells us grants a 4+ save unless the rule provides a specific save.

Fixed that for you.

So, you are saying that if the vehicle is obscured by 5+ cover, be it a piece of wargear or terrain, then that is the save it receives. So in effect smoke launchers provide 4+ cover, therefor when they obscure the vehicle, it gets a 4+ save. I can see that logic. I will have to re-read the obscured vehicle section when I get home, I was under the impression that all vehicles with the obscured status received the same save for being obscured, 4+.

terranarc wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:

terranarc wrote:My answer: a 4+ cover save. A vehicle who's body is 50% out of LOS is obscured and gets 4+ cover save.

Incorrect. A vehicle which is 50% obscured gets a cover save of 5+, 4+ or 3+ depending on what's obscuring it.
This is a very common misconception.

Ooooooh I see, so that's where the dispute is coming from. Very clever. So what you're saying is that a vehicle can be "obscured" in multiple ways that give different cover saves yeah? Hm... well.. that still doesn't say what kind of a save they would get. Are you arguing 5+? 4+? 3+? I mean the middle ground is 4+ anyway.

Quite so.

The automatic 4+ for being obscured only comes into play if the obscured status is granted by wargear which does not specify a save.

You are then into analysing the specific wording of the KFF rule to determine if the 5+ mentioned applies to vehicles or not - something which has been done to death in other threads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Anubis_513 wrote:So, you are saying that if the vehicle is obscured by 5+ cover, be it a piece of wargear or terrain, then that is the save it receives. So in effect smoke launchers provide 4+ cover, therefor when they obscure the vehicle, it gets a 4+ save. I can see that logic.

Exactly

Anubis_513 wrote:I will have to re-read the obscured vehicle section when I get home, I was under the impression that all vehicles with the obscured status received the same save for being obscured, 4+

Not at all. As I said, a very common misconception.

The Codex says it gives 5+ cover (pg. 34) and vehicles count as obscured. The rulebook says obscured grants 4+, unless changed by the codex (pg. 62). In this case, doesn't the codex say it is 5+? How could the cover granted by the force field be better for a vehicle than for a grot?

Homer

Homer S wrote:The Codex says it gives 5+ cover (pg. 34) and vehicles count as obscured. The rulebook says obscured grants 4+, unless changed by the codex (pg. 62). In this case, doesn't the codex say it is 5+? How could the cover granted by the force field be better for a vehicle than for a grot?

Homer

Because the codex is not specific about whether the 5+ cover save granted to all nearby units overrides the standard 4+ cover save that applies when a piece of wargear grants "obscured" status.

For example, if I said: "Everyone in the plaza has an apple. My friends in the plaza all have fruit." You could assume that my friends have apples, but they could have something else, and it doesn't specify that they must have only the apple. This is the way KFF is written. "Friendlies in range gets a 5+ cover save. Vehicles in range are treated as obscured." Two separate clauses, leaving it open to interpretation whether the 5+ cover save is the same save that applies to vehicles.

The ork player in my group is going to be very disappointed by this revalation

Anubis_513 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus ,
Allied units within range are 5+ cover. 5+ cover is specified, as such obscured grants the 5+ save to the vehicles.

but the KFF does not grant a cover save to the vehicle at all, it gives the vehicle the obscured status. It is the status of obscured that grants the cover save, not the KFF itself.

...except the part where it grants all units within 6" a 5+ Cover Save. Vehicles are still units.

Actually the ork codex always uses "all units" as "all non-vehicles". See the SAG's 6,6 or Mad Dok Grotzniks "Da Big Dok" rule.

We have also played it as 4+ for all vehicles. Nobody in the group have ever argued it therefore as the only ork player I am certainly not going to argue it either!

Works for me!

Jesus... this one again?

Jidmah wrote:Actually the ork codex always uses "all units" as "all non-vehicles". See the SAG's 6,6 or Mad Dok Grotzniks "Da Big Dok" rule.

Going by the FAQ, the SAG does apply to vehicles. It only specifically excludes Gargantuan Creatures and Super Heavies.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Indeed. The KFF provides a 5+ cover save and make vehicles count as obscured. As a value for the cover save is specified, the default of 4+ doesn't apply.

No one plays it that way though.

I do. So far, nobody has complained about me using the 5+.

There's a common misconception that 'obscured = 4+ save' which simply isn't true.

Obscured vehicles don't get a 4+ cover save. Nor do they get an 'obscured' save. They get the exact same save as an infantry model would get if obscuyred by the same obstruction. That's straight from the vehicle and cover rules.

Vehicles only default to the 4+ if no save is specified in the rules for whatever is obscuring them.

The KFF specifies a 5+ save for all units... so vehicles use that, as any other unit would.

The KFF also counts vehicles as obscured. This makes no difference to the save, since a save is specified in the KFF rules.

insaniak wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Actually the ork codex always uses "all units" as "all non-vehicles". See the SAG's 6,6 or Mad Dok Grotzniks "Da Big Dok" rule.

Going by the FAQ, the SAG does apply to vehicles. It only specifically excludes Gargantuan Creatures and Super Heavies.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Indeed. The KFF provides a 5+ cover save and make vehicles count as obscured. As a value for the cover save is specified, the default of 4+ doesn't apply.

No one plays it that way though.

I do. So far, nobody has complained about me using the 5+.

There's a common misconception that 'obscured = 4+ save' which simply isn't true.

The KFF specifies a 5+ save for all units... so vehicles use that, as any other unit would.

And they do. Vehicles receive a 5+ save from the kff, as they are units within 6".

The KFF also counts vehicles as obscured. This makes no difference to the save, since a save is specified in the KFF rules.

No, there is no save specified by the kff for the obscurement as required by the rules.

Read the rule carefully.
"If a special rule or a piece of wargear confers to a
vehicle the ability of being obscured even if in the
open, this is a 4+ cover save, unless specified otherwise
in the Codex"
It does not say that the obscurement save is like any other obscurement and uses the save of the terrain/wargear unless none is provided then defaults to a 4+.
It says "the ability of being obscured even if in the open" is a 4+ save unless "the ability of being obscured even if in the open" is "specified" (as in specifically stated to be) otherwise.
Then it has a half page example of smoke launchers, which clearly stat "count as obscured... receiving a 4+ cover save". And then a few pages later skimmers "counts as obscured (cover save of 4+)". It's clear how specific the BRB states rules should be and shows rules must be when defining a save for an obscurement ability or wargear effect through multiple examples.

This is not unclear. This is people mis-extrapolating from the normal obscured rules to think that because the kff provides a 5+ save that the ability of being obscured even in the open it provides must be a 5+ despite not being specifically defined.

Hard RAW it's a 4+. Per the codex author in a publication it's 4+, and per a GW released sheet it's a 4+. GW has not stated otherwise in any fashion. Per every major event I've been to or heard about it's a 4+. Over 80% of the polled here agree it's a 4+.
It's a 4+. Can we seriously just put this to rest already and stop bringing it up every single day? It's the deff rolla all over again, just let it go.

Gorkamorka wrote:No, there is no save specified by the kff for the obscurement as required by the rules.

Again, being obscured is not a separate mechanic to being in cover. Being obscured is simply what normally allows vehicles to take the cover save.

For that matter, being obscured is what allows any model to take a cover save. The only difference for vehicles (which also applies to MCs) is how much of the model normally needs to be obscured in order to claim that cover.


The actual save that you get for being obscured is the same, whether the model is infantry, jump infantry, a bike, an MC, or a vehicle. In 5th edition 40K, 'Obscured' is not a special status just for vehicles... it is a reference to the model, whatever sort of model it is, being in cover.

There is no such thing as an 'obscured save'... obscured models take cover saves. There is no support in the rules for the vehicle gaining a 4+ save in this situation, as a cover save is specified in the KFF rules.