Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
What is the value of a sorcerer with jump pack? I understand this is kind of a pie in the sky type of question as it depends on your list, their list (do denies matter) etc.
However, I am thinking that typically sorcerer is run with a jump pack for prescience and one other ability (smite?), likely with the standard obliterator chaos lord combination. Prescience is likely going on obliterators and even using VOTLW and Reshooting against a standard invul save I think it nets maybe a couple more wounds. Does that really validate the cost of a sorcerer considering for a few more points you can essentially include an extra unit of oblits (acknowledging oblits are heavy supp and Sorcerer is an HQ if you need that role) - the cost isn't even that far depending what weapon is placed on the sorc...
Kuklops wrote: Whats the best way of buffing up Possessed? I get Nurgle is the way to go but I can't seem to think of a way that doesn't burn all the CPs up.
I'm tempted to try the following @ 2K.
Nurgle Sorcerer
Dark Apostle
9 Berzerkers in Rhinos
10 Berzerkers in Rhinos
20 Nurgle Possessed
3x10 Cultists
HoK 30 Bloodletters
HoN HoN 3x3 Nuglings
Alpha Legion Possessed can start 9" away, then Deep Strike the Nurgle Heralds & Sorcerer in with them, hit them with a combination of Shriveling Pox/Virulent Blessing/Miasma of Pestilence & then Prescience/Death Hex off the Sorcerer.
Bloodletter bombs hits turn 1 too. Berzerkers with the DA come in turn 2 to mop up. Cultists and Nurglings just throw shapes on objectives.
Thoughts?
Why Prescience and not Warp Time? 20 buffed Possessed in melee turn one is fierce.
Kuklops wrote: Whats the best way of buffing up Possessed? I get Nurgle is the way to go but I can't seem to think of a way that doesn't burn all the CPs up.
I'm tempted to try the following @ 2K.
Nurgle Sorcerer
Dark Apostle
9 Berzerkers in Rhinos
10 Berzerkers in Rhinos
20 Nurgle Possessed
3x10 Cultists
HoK 30 Bloodletters
HoN HoN 3x3 Nuglings
Alpha Legion Possessed can start 9" away, then Deep Strike the Nurgle Heralds & Sorcerer in with them, hit them with a combination of Shriveling Pox/Virulent Blessing/Miasma of Pestilence & then Prescience/Death Hex off the Sorcerer.
Bloodletter bombs hits turn 1 too. Berzerkers with the DA come in turn 2 to mop up. Cultists and Nurglings just throw shapes on objectives.
Thoughts?
Why Prescience and not Warp Time? 20 buffed Possessed in melee turn one is fierce.
Alpha Legion means those Possessed start the game 9 inches from the enemy and turn one get to move up. No warptime required.
With the release of Daemons Codex I've been looking at my Juggerlords again but I'm finding them maybe 10 points overcosted. A Juggerlord with an Axe of Blind Fury is doing less wounds than an Exalted Champ with the same Axe. The Juggernaut attacks help close the gap but then you're just paying twice as much for a unit doing the same amount of damage. Sure the Juggerlord is tankyer with more toughness and wounds and a 4+ invul save, but I'm not playing Nurgle's bois here. When I charge something I expect it to fething die, and rerolling wounds increases the amount of wounds a unit does on average.
Poor Juggerlords, I just want them to be good. I've got two of them!
Edit: A Daemon Prince without wings is also only 16 more points than an AoBF JuggerLord with wwwwaaaayyyyy better stats. Hell just take Uraka or Zhufor for a better priced unit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/17 00:11:01
I've been thinking. All three CHAOS Codexes confer faction tactics on a limited selection of units. So, we only really need to put the following units in 'pure' detachments, and everything else can go into soup detachments; that can be the difference of, say, an Endless Cacophony, if we put three odd FA units and three odd Elite units into detachments:
DAEMONS: Heralds, Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, Exalted Flamers; TZEENTCH are low priority as their detachment Locus is fairly weak.
DEATH GUARD: INFANTRY and HELBRUTES armed with Heavy, Assault, or Rapid Fire weapons.
BLACK LEGION: Larger INFANTRY and BIKERS units; INFANTRY and BIKERS and HELBRUTE units with Rapid Fire weapons.
IRON WARRIORS: INFANTRY, BIKER and HELBRUTE units that are going to shoot things, especially INFANTRY.
RENEGADES, WORLD EATERS: INFANTRY, BIKER, and HELBRUTE units you intend to charge something with.
NIGHT LORDS: INFANTRY, BIKER and HELBRUTE units that aren't going to be thoroughly screened.
EMPEROR'S CHILDREN: INFANTRY, BIKER and HELBRUTE units you expect to receive charges or to be entangled for more than one turn of close combat.
ALPHA LEGION: Most INFANTRY, BIKER and HELBRUTE units.
WORD BEARERS: Non-MSU INFANTRY and BIKER units.
So, if you've got three melee-only DG characters and a DG Predator in a Batallion, and two Burning Chariots in a Daemons Battalion, and it won't break a limit on number of detachments, you may as well put them all in a CHAOS Spearhead and claim an extra CP.
In larger games, I can see scope for Daemon Supreme Commands getting the Loci online and then backfield Chaos Lords or such leading soup detachments with the rest of the Warp-children.
lindsay40k wrote: I've been thinking. All three CHAOS Codexes confer faction tactics on a limited selection of units. So, we only really need to put the following units in 'pure' detachments, and everything else can go into soup detachments; that can be the difference of, say, an Endless Cacophony, if we put three odd FA units and three odd Elite units into detachments:
DAEMONS: Heralds, Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, Exalted Flamers; TZEENTCH are low priority as their detachment Locus is fairly weak.
DEATH GUARD: INFANTRY and HELBRUTES armed with Heavy, Assault, or Rapid Fire weapons.
BLACK LEGION: Larger INFANTRY and BIKERS units; INFANTRY and BIKERS and HELBRUTE units with Rapid Fire weapons.
IRON WARRIORS: INFANTRY, BIKER and HELBRUTE units that are going to shoot things, especially INFANTRY.
RENEGADES, WORLD EATERS: INFANTRY, BIKER, and HELBRUTE units you intend to charge something with.
NIGHT LORDS: INFANTRY, BIKER and HELBRUTE units that aren't going to be thoroughly screened.
EMPEROR'S CHILDREN: INFANTRY, BIKER and HELBRUTE units you expect to receive charges or to be entangled for more than one turn of close combat.
ALPHA LEGION: Most INFANTRY, BIKER and HELBRUTE units.
WORD BEARERS: Non-MSU INFANTRY and BIKER units.
So, if you've got three melee-only DG characters and a DG Predator in a Batallion, and two Burning Chariots in a Daemons Battalion, and it won't break a limit on number of detachments, you may as well put them all in a CHAOS Spearhead and claim an extra CP.
In larger games, I can see scope for Daemon Supreme Commands getting the Loci online and then backfield Chaos Lords or such leading soup detachments with the rest of the Warp-children.
Yeah, the more Codexes get released, the more I think the optimal playstyle is mixed detachments. I've been running Alpha Legion Cultists with my Black Legion Terminators the last few games, it's been making a difference.
I would be a little more specific for each subfaction. For example:
BLACK LEGION: Abaddon, 2 squads of Chaos Terminators with Combi-Plasma. Deep strike rerolling all misses to hit.
Does anyone still have that one Math-hammer site where you could enter a weapon and see the full table of damage dealt? I can't find it for the life of me.
So something I noticed looking at the daemons codex.... Daemon Engines (forgefiend/maulerfiend, bloodslaughterer, etc....) don't have the Daemon FACTION keyword. which means you currently can't put them into a daemons detachment. This makes me sad as in my mind they are daemons through and through. You guys think there is any chance of errata for this?
smegma_crunch wrote: So something I noticed looking at the daemons codex.... Daemon Engines (forgefiend/maulerfiend, bloodslaughterer, etc....) don't have the Daemon FACTION keyword. which means you currently can't put them into a daemons detachment. This makes me sad as in my mind they are daemons through and through. You guys think there is any chance of errata for this?
They are Daemonic in nature, but bear in mind they are also machines built by mortals. They are affected by things that affect Daemons, but their maintenance is by Warpsmiths, their orders come from Chaos Lords, and their transit is by spacecraft.
Daemonic Engines are built so that Daemons can stay in the material world. It would go against everything in the Daemons Codex if they had those since the entire point of the low morale Daemons is that their presence is only tenuously tied to the mortal realms.
lindsay40k wrote: I've been thinking. All three CHAOS Codexes confer faction tactics on a limited selection of units. So, we only really need to put the following units in 'pure' detachments, and everything else can go into soup detachments; that can be the difference of, say, an Endless Cacophony, if we put three odd FA units and three odd Elite units into detachments:
DAEMONS: Heralds, Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, Exalted Flamers; TZEENTCH are low priority as their detachment Locus is fairly weak.
DEATH GUARD: INFANTRY and HELBRUTES armed with Heavy, Assault, or Rapid Fire weapons.
BLACK LEGION: Larger INFANTRY and BIKERS units; INFANTRY and BIKERS and HELBRUTE units with Rapid Fire weapons.
IRON WARRIORS: INFANTRY, BIKER and HELBRUTE units that are going to shoot things, especially INFANTRY.
RENEGADES, WORLD EATERS: INFANTRY, BIKER, and HELBRUTE units you intend to charge something with.
NIGHT LORDS: INFANTRY, BIKER and HELBRUTE units that aren't going to be thoroughly screened.
EMPEROR'S CHILDREN: INFANTRY, BIKER and HELBRUTE units you expect to receive charges or to be entangled for more than one turn of close combat.
ALPHA LEGION: Most INFANTRY, BIKER and HELBRUTE units.
WORD BEARERS: Non-MSU INFANTRY and BIKER units.
So, if you've got three melee-only DG characters and a DG Predator in a Batallion, and two Burning Chariots in a Daemons Battalion, and it won't break a limit on number of detachments, you may as well put them all in a CHAOS Spearhead and claim an extra CP.
In larger games, I can see scope for Daemon Supreme Commands getting the Loci online and then backfield Chaos Lords or such leading soup detachments with the rest of the Warp-children.
the more I build my lists, the more I am trending towards a tzeentch/khorne mix instead of trying to keep things separate. the khorne locus is pretty much obviated by the existence of the banner strat, while the tzeentch locus is so underwhelming that it's not even worth putting in the effort to get.
even nurgle is pretty meh except under exceptional circumstances, slaanesh seems to be the only one where it is good enough to be worth the effort to acquire.
Despite all the fluff about how the 4 daemon factions are always fighting with each other, from a tactical point of view, you can form a more complete, more flexible army if you don't go mono god. Besides, its not as if the chaos gods haven't joined together before.
Yep. The actual perks for many factions seem to be underwhelming. Alpha Legion and Ultramarines are amazing, most others... eh, go pure if you can, but don’t go out your way for it. Just get one Detachment to unlock your Codex’s Stratagems.
Right. What does the Daemon Codex add to Drakes, Dinobots, and Decimators?
Re-rolling charges and getting +1S with a Juggerherald running with them seems brilliant.
Tzeentch Locus is pants.
Nurgle Locus isn’t too shabby on a Lasherfiend or Baledrake.
Charge after Advance looks good on a Lasherfiend. Not so much Decimator, if it’s loaded out for melee it’ll lose out on its Hellflamers.
Ignoring Stratagems as they’re likely to be verboten. Locus of Wrath might remain a thing but it’s paying 2CP to do what the Dark Apostle already does to them,
Flickering Flames is far better cast on Horrors.
Virulent Blessing looks sweet on a Lasherfiend. Decimator could punch a Knight’s lights out. Interesting synergy with Exalted Champion aura buff?
Fleshy Abundance is great if you’re trying to tank with these things.
Hysterical Frenzy is an unreliable bonus, when it works it’ll be sweet.
Situational, 24" smite isn't too bad - especially with Magnus. Some of the new powers might make it a good legion tactic though, something with auras might be nice.
-1 to hit is good, especially useful on Magnus with a 3++ re-roll 1s. It is however the exact same power as Nurgle has but is WC7 rather than 6... Odd.
Eh, WC9 for smite with a movement debuff on it? Might be good against genestealers, Berzerkers, etc. and the ability to snipe characters might be nice but WC9? We'll have to see.
My first thought: Yay! The extremely slow rubrics get a way to stick their uber-bolters right into the enemies face. Second thought: Booo! 9" mean the warpflamers can't hit anything. Might be better than sending bolter rubrics up the board via rhino though, we'll have to see.
Hmmm... Send Magnus or the new warp beasty thing into the enemies face? Tempting. Might also be a good way of getting terminators a double strike rather than coming down and then having to footslog once they killed their first target. I like it.
Situational perhaps but I'm sure that there'll be a time where you can send a rhino on a suicide mission to cripple a party of devastators and for 1CP I could see people using it. Not bad.
1CP less than the similar stratagem in Heretic Astartes but can only target Tzaangors. To be honest, I haven't been too impressed with Tzaangors' damage output but for 2CP you can't complain.
Errrr... I guess if you play spawn this could be good? 4 Spawns auto getting AP-4 against marines, +2 attacks against chaff or re-rolling to wound against T6+ models with poor armour saves as well as re-rolling those 1s and 2s for your attack rolls is pretty good. And I suppose TS do lack any fast moving combat units, Spawn could make a comeback.
I suppose this could be used to deny certain Maelstorm VP like slay a character, kill a unit with shooting/CC, if you know the character is going to die anyway. Plus it doesn't cost any RP, perhaps a cunning general might make use of this.
Not too bad so far, still need to see how they handle the Aspiring Champion's smite-lite before we get too excited.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
Sadly, you can't use the crystal to send Magnus or the warp-beasty thing into the enemy's face, as it specifies Infantry (just like the Webway stratagem). Otherwise, it would be pretty good. Still, it's a good way to get a unit of Rubrics away from a tarpit unit.
Personally, I think Rubrics are going to make a comeback with the Webway strat. Being able to drop a couple of full squads in rapid-fire range and unload inferno bolters will delete any screens, then Magnus or others can get some charges off. I'm almost tempted to pick up a couple of squads and run them along with a World Eaters detachment to exploit this trick.
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 13 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
Mr_Rose wrote: Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
ZergSmasher wrote: Sadly, you can't use the crystal to send Magnus or the warp-beasty thing into the enemy's face, as it specifies Infantry (just like the Webway stratagem). Otherwise, it would be pretty good. Still, it's a good way to get a unit of Rubrics away from a tarpit unit.
Personally, I think Rubrics are going to make a comeback with the Webway strat. Being able to drop a couple of full squads in rapid-fire range and unload inferno bolters will delete any screens, then Magnus or others can get some charges off. I'm almost tempted to pick up a couple of squads and run them along with a World Eaters detachment to exploit this trick.
Ah, oh well, not as good as first thought then.
But you are right about rubrics being valid and perhaps necessary part of every TS army rather than just a fluffy unit that is sort of just there. Looks good so far.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
I think there's some potential for running Ahriman as a psychic damage dealer. Infernal Gaze, Doombolt, and Tzeentch's Firestorm are pretty poor spells on their own but if you stack them all together I think you can reach mortal wound critical mass and have Ahriman just fly around blasting whatever characters are unfortunate enough to get into his 36" threat range.
Doombolt's warp charge cost is so high I can't really see anyone besides Magnus managing to successfully cast it, or does Ahriman get a bonus to his casting too (don't have my index handy)?
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 13 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
Mr_Rose wrote: Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
Deep striking 20 rubrics, 30 pink horrors, and a sorcerer terminator for casting, that's some very serious firepower / bodies for not a lot of points all things considered. What is your opponent supposed to do? Your range is 24" on the rubrics and 18" on the pinks, screen against that how again? And put some nurglings down for "mischief makers" and some tougher stuff to weather the enemies attack in case they get 1st Turn (nurgle is great for this obviously) the amount of options we have to us with this next release makes chaos just so powerful, so many viable options...
There’s an argument for deepstriking a horde of Tzaangors and Warptiming them in. Can probably entangle many screens and finish them off in the enemy’s turn. 9” Warptime plus a little conga line tail on the horde enables the caster to avoid DTW coverage.
It is really sad GW has basically removed the need to do anything Undivided and, in fact, actively penalizes you for doing it because of the stratagems. I see so many IW/NL/AL with marks all over the place, when these are almost entirely undivided/unmarked legions (IW had some Berserkers as siege troops, but Night Lords actively despise serving the gods), and while I get "herp derp competitive" mindset, it just feels wrong to do. But I get why, there's zero reason to NOT do it. Just seems like there is no place anymore in CSM for someone who wants to actually play an undivided force and still be good.
Wayniac wrote: It is really sad GW has basically removed the need to do anything Undivided and, in fact, actively penalizes you for doing it because of the stratagems. I see so many IW/NL/AL with marks all over the place, when these are almost entirely undivided/unmarked legions (IW had some Berserkers as siege troops, but Night Lords actively despise serving the gods), and while I get "herp derp competitive" mindset, it just feels wrong to do. But I get why, there's zero reason to NOT do it. Just seems like there is no place anymore in CSM for someone who wants to actually play an undivided force and still be good.
Yeah, I started my Word Bearers as polytheism at any cost with Marks only on Daemonic units, and before long it became clear that if I wanted to not be a punching bag then Marked and even Cult units were something of a necessity. Shame.
~15000 Astra Militarum: 
~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: 
~1900 | Imperial Knights: 
~2000 | Sisters of Battle: 
~3500 | Leagues of Votann: 
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.