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All the discussion of competitive Dark Eldar play seems to end up focusing on minimum sized units, often in venoms. However, this gets very expensive $ wise when you have a large army that ends up being a 5 man squad and transport for every ~150 points. Also, some of us are more fluffy minded, or just don't want the same cookie cutter list everyone else is playing.

So, what sort of DE units and lists would be competitive if we disregard MSU spam? This does not mean there can be no MSU squads and no venoms, but I'm trying to specifically avoid all troop options being 5 man warrior squads in a venom with a blaster, and all elites being trueborn venom blaster squads.

Well, an alternative could be a shooty list with larger Warrior units on foot (with HS skimmer),
or a WWP list with larger Wych units on foot.(with HS of Talos type).

I personally run 7 man FnP wych (in raiders obviously) squads in conjunction with 5 venoms, you still a large amount of anti infantry firepower but also have more counter assault/tying up units. And a few more DL, that extra range range is nice.

As Weustenfex said WWP is completely different and lighter on the wallet. You want a couple of venoms to transport WWP's though.

A mech DE army is always going to be expensive sadly.

So...you don't want to play an internet list. So you are asking the internet for a list that isn't an internet list. =p

Kabalite army, Wych Cult, WWP mixture of MCs, beasts and wyches with a touch of coven.

That's the internet opinion on what you can do to make a competitive army with Dark Eldar.

They're most to least competitive in that order.

I would advise you to either pick an "internet cookie cutter list" or not to ask the internet for help building a list. I built my Dark Eldar list. I gave it an internet name. I advocated its use across the internet. I kick ass with it. Now its popular. And people accuse me of using a cookie-cutter list. Ignore people.

For my DE force (just started) I''m getting 2 or 3 battle forces with an extra raider each, then padding it out with cool stuff (incubi in venom, ravagers, razorwings etc.)

List are lists and internet or not its all what you make of it.

Trueborn are popular because they are effective. Venoms are extremely popular because they are very effective. Small units are very popular because they are effective.

However,

I would put forth that a list consisting of wyches and blood brides with haywire grenades mounted in raiders would have some merit.
To fill in the gap for the missing trueborn I would suggest haywire scourges to suppress armor until you can get to it. pass on the dark lance scourges, your going to need the mobility to get around.
Your still going to need ravagers.

I know others disagree with the succubus as a HQ, but I have been running mine for several games now and I love using her. Cheap, with an agonizer and haywire grenades and nothing else. Not super killy, but good enough to put on average 3 power weapon wounds on anything. Add in an hekatrix with agonizer for an additional PW wound.

The Syren is better than a hekatrix, but not near as good as a succubus, but running her will get a few more no armor save wounds.

DE are really lacking in AT and if you are going to go sans trueborn & venom because of the costs, then you will need to replace it somewhere else.

Anyhoo, its something to kick around.

Dashofpepper wrote:Kabalite army, Wych Cult, WWP mixture of MCs, beasts and wyches with a touch of coven.

All of these, except the first, can meet the criteria of the OP... at least, the part about not fielding tons of minimum-sized units in venoms.

Dashofpepper wrote:So...you don't want to play an internet list. So you are asking the internet for a list that isn't an internet list. =p

Kabalite army, Wych Cult, WWP mixture of MCs, beasts and wyches with a touch of coven.

That's the internet opinion on what you can do to make a competitive army with Dark Eldar.

They're most to least competitive in that order.

I would advise you to either pick an "internet cookie cutter list" or not to ask the internet for help building a list. I built my Dark Eldar list. I gave it an internet name. I advocated its use across the internet. I kick ass with it. Now its popular. And people accuse me of using a cookie-cutter list. Ignore people.

It has nothing to do with internet lists vs non-internet lists. I am simply looking for tactical discussion of more of the force. I have read your dark eldar posts/articles, and found them very interesting. I am interested in seeing such breakdowns for other units, and other styles of armies. We have a tendency to only discuss the most competitive options on the nets. But most games played take place outside of top tier competitive environments where these lists simply aren't needed, and would get boring. For the sake of variety, I want to see good discussions on other options.

How do we best do incubi themed armies? More fluffly kabals that use 10 man raider squads? Classic kabals (archon+incubi, warriors in raiders)? Haemonculi based lists (both mech and wwp)? Mandrake themed? Baron? Deepstrike armies?

There seems to be a prevailing attitude that you either play the top competitive net list, or that it doesn't matter what you do at all. I reject this idea. There's a lot of room in trying to optimize fluff themed lists, or lists built around different playstyles to have interesting discussions and experiment with builds.

Its not the size of the ship, its the motion in the ocean....or something like that?

I disagree with your assumption that taking a venom-based army makes you competitive, or that it will get boring to play. There are few very consistently successful Dark Eldar players because it is a difficult army to succeed with.

My suggestion: Build anything you want. Play it and experiment with it. When you find that it has a flaw, tweak it and play it some more. Rinse and repeat.

For me, that started as a pure Venom Army. It shifted to a Wych Cult. I experimented with a Coven. In the end, I've settled on a hybrid kabalite/wych cult/coven army. It's competitive in my hands, but that doesn't make it competitive in other peoples' hands - which is true of any army that any player wields. Hulksmash and I both regularly get dumped on for running bad armies, but we do well well them because they're tailored to us.

So build what you like. If you build a venom-spam army, that doesn't make it competitive. Triple units of Kabalite true-born don't make an army competitive. If you build it and beating people like unwanted stepchildren...then switch it up a bit.

I disagree with your assumption that taking a venom-based army makes you competitive

I'm not sure what makes you think that I think this. I have said that the competitive netlists seem to all be msu venom spam, not that all msu venom spam is a competitive netlist...

Drudge I understand you 100% but there simply isnt any data on these units. No one plays them or against them so most of the advice you will get is either a. theoryhammer or b. the way a net list will destroy the particular unit.

Coming up with a competitive list can be accomplish by doing what dash said, create a list play it and constantly tweak it. Eventually the skill you have with your list will make it more than competitive, however coming up with a net list where anyone can buy it, use it, and win is a different story.

The Dark Eldar codex has alot of units alot of wargear that there are guranteed to be some unknown competitive list or even a net list in there that hasnt been discovered.

If you are just looking at hidden gems of units, then try out scourges (surprisingly effective in a mostly foot list), huge warrior units (20 guys with 2 SC is only 200 pts, makes orks look inefficient in killing power), reserved razorwings (come in and dump out 4 missles on infantry, its almost apoc in how much you can kill), small wrack squads with liquifiers riding in raiders (raiders so you still have some anti tank ability...), and then there is always a webway list (harder to use, less powerful, but still fun and can be a nasty surpise to people expecting mech spam).

I think you can actually make a pretty nasty dark footdar list, since DE infantry is so cheap, and yet pretty effective. To scary to be on foot with all infantry like an ork? run some harmies (up to 6) for some needed FNP.

Something I was using that I don't really see in most discussions online is trueborn with 2 splinter cannons in venoms with dual splinter cannons. I played my dark eldar as a shooty force that moved in to capture objectives late in the game. Those vemons are packing 24 shots if they are stationary and 20 if they move 6 inches. I took three of them and they fulfilled the anti-infantry role for my army. I then spammed raiders and three ravagers to fill out the rest. Usually packing a squad of wyches and haemonculous in one raider and minimum sized warrior squads with shredders in the other raiders.

augustus5 wrote:Something I was using that I don't really see in most discussions online is trueborn with 2 splinter cannons in venoms with dual splinter cannons. I played my dark eldar as a shooty force that moved in to capture objectives late in the game. Those vemons are packing 24 shots if they are stationary and 20 if they move 6 inches. I took three of them and they fulfilled the anti-infantry role for my army. I then spammed raiders and three ravagers to fill out the rest. Usually packing a squad of wyches and haemonculous in one raider and minimum sized warrior squads with shredders in the other raiders.

Now there is nothing wrong with true born splinter units, but in a venom they kinda don't fulfill the duality that DE units normally have (that is anti tank unit, anti infantry transport or anti infantry unit, anti tank transport). I have used trueborn splinter units myself, but have put them in raiders instead (and gave them carbines as points allow).

The reason for duality? If your entire army is able to handle every type of threat, there is little chance that your opponent will be able to neutralize all of your anti tank, or anti infantry fire power. The only way for them to get rid of your anti tank ability is to kill at least half of every FOC choice you made, and the same thing goes for getting rid of your anti infantry. Compare that to the lists that rely on 3-6 units (usually 3 ravagers and trueblaster squads) for anti tank, and ignore anti tank power in their other units... Much easier to kill off the anti tank ability of the list in 1-2 turns of shooting.

Actually, I find running 20 warriors with 2 splinter cannons and a haemonculi to be effective. I use them for back fielding objectives. Its also fun to watch something horrible come your way, only for it to be denied after having to survive 28 poison shots.

The Crusader Of 42 wrote:Actually, I find running 20 warriors with 2 splinter cannons and a haemonculi to be effective. I use them for back fielding objectives. Its also fun to watch something horrible come your way, only for it to be denied after having to survive 28 poison shots.

Well, I actually like that build, but is it better than with 2 dark lances (about same cost if you skip the unnecessary harmie)? You miss out on some anti infantry (the long range mostly) but still have at least 17 splinter riffles, 1 blaster/shredder shot, and 2 DL shots. I'll give up some anti infantry shooting (which I have in venoms elsewhere) for 2-3 more anti tank shots.

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:All the discussion of competitive Dark Eldar play seems to end up focusing on minimum sized units, often in venoms. However, this gets very expensive $ wise when you have a large army that ends up being a 5 man squad and transport for every ~150 points. Also, some of us are more fluffy minded, or just don't want the same cookie cutter list everyone else is playing.

So, what sort of DE units and lists would be competitive if we disregard MSU spam? This does not mean there can be no MSU squads and no venoms, but I'm trying to specifically avoid all troop options being 5 man warrior squads in a venom with a blaster, and all elites being trueborn venom blaster squads.

I usually run a squad of wracks and the rest wyches in my troops. Each unit in a raider costing around 200 points before i start adding haemonculi
then in elites I run either 2 trueborn and an incubi or 2 incubi and a trueborn. Incubi are great against Meq, which is most of the game. A small unit of incubi should run almost 200 points, a big unit we are talking 300.

But this is DE, we dont have 5 terminators and a landraider to eat up 500 points. Instead we laugh at people who do.