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Howdy guys,

Been fiddling with my 2500 'Ard Boyz list and whittled down my options to 3 lists. Was curious as to what suggestions others have, so here goes:

List 1- Death Co 'n Friends

HQ
----
Mephiston - 250 pts

Elites
------
Chaplain - Powerfist/Crozious - 115 pts
Furioso Dread - Melta/SB, Talons - 125 pts
2x Sang Priests - jump packs - 150 pts

Troops
---------
10x Assault Marines - 2x melta, PF - 235 pts
10x Assault Marines - 2x melta, PF - 235 pts
10x Assault Marines - 2x melta, PF - 235 pts
7x Death Company - 1x power fist - 165 pts
Death Co. Dread - Melta/SB, talons - 125 pts

Fast Attack
-------------
Baal Pred - TLAC, HB sponsons - 145 pts
Baal Pred - TLAC, HB sponsons - 145 pts
Baal Pred - TLAC, HB sponsons - 145 pts

Heavy Support
------------------
Storm Raven - TLMM, TLAC, EA - 215 pts
Storm Raven - TLMM, TLAC, EA - 215 pts

Total: 2500 on the dot

Plan of attack: Furioso + Death co and chappy in 1 raven, Meph + DC dread in other. Baals either outflank or scout up for T1 shooting (thats 30 shots!). AM's can either combat squad to spread out and give me 6 troops basically, deep strike and combat squad to give me a DoA style decent, or form up into large blobs of 10 and run around.

This list (if the dreads disembark and marines combat squad with 1 melta per squad) is capable of locking down 15 vehicles a turn if the ravens POTMS their weapons at 2 different targets! It is also as good coming from reserve as it does starting on the board as everything but my dreads/Dc is capable of moving 12"+ a turn.

List 2 - HAMMERTIME!

HQ
----
Mephiston - 250 pts
Librarian - 100 pts

Elites
------
5x Assault Terms - 3x TH/SS, 2 claws - 215 pts
Furioso Dread - Melta/SB, Talons - 125 pts
2x Sang Priests - 1 with JP, 1 is corbulo - 180 pts

Troops
---------
10x Assault Marines - 2x melta, PF - 235 pts
10x Assault Marines - 2x melta, PF - 235 pts
10x Assault Marines - 2x melta, PF - 235 pts

Fast Attack
-------------
Baal Pred - TLAC, HB sponsons - 145 pts
Baal Pred - TLAC, HB sponsons - 145 pts
Baal Pred - TLAC, HB sponsons - 145 pts

Heavy Support
------------------
Storm Raven - TLMM, TLAC, EA - 215 pts
Storm Raven - TLMM, TLAC, EA - 215 pts

Total: 2440 pts

Plan of attack: Dread + meph in 1 raven, Corb + libby + terms in other. This list has the same strengths as my DC list, cept it has a pretty awesome deathstar. Corbs reroll is very nice for some games as 1 dice roll can win or lose a game!

This list is just as good from reserve as the last. The extra 60 pts can be used for more hammers, power weapon on the priest, or some infernus pistols; which means even more anti-tank! woo! This has more KP than the last list, but 1 less dread

List 3 - Lots o marines

HQ
----
Mephiston - 250 pts
Libby - 100 pts

Elites
------
Furioso Dread - Melta/SB, Talons - 125 pts
Furioso Dread - Melta/SB, Talons - 125 pts
2x Sang Priests - 1x JP, 1 bare - 125 pts

Troops
---------
10x Assault Marines - 2x melta, PF - 235 pts
10x Assault Marines - 2x melta, PF - 235 pts
10x Assault Marines - 2x melta, PF - 235 pts
10x Assault Marines - no packs, 2x flamer, PW - 215 pts


Fast Attack
-------------
Baal Pred - TLAC, HB sponsons - 145 pts
Baal Pred - TLAC, HB sponsons - 145 pts
Baal Pred - TLAC, HB sponsons - 145 pts

Heavy Support
------------------
Storm Raven - TLMM, TLAC, EA - 215 pts
Storm Raven - TLMM, TLAC, EA - 215 pts

Total: 2510 (will cut 10 pts)

Plan of attack: dreads in both ravens, 1 with meph, 1 with the 10 flamer marines/libby/priest. No death star, but more targets. This list also gives me a possible 2 more scoring units, so I can have up to 8 scoring units! But it doesn't hit as hard as the other two

List 4
------

HQ
----
Mephiston - 250 pts
Librarian - 100 pts

Elites
------
Furioso Dread - Melta, SB, Talons- 125 pts
Furioso Dread - Melta, SB, Talons- 125 pts
3x Sang priests - 2x JP, 1x PW -215 pts

Troops
---------
10x AM's - 2x melta, PF - 235 pts
10x AM's - 2x melta, PF - 235 pts
10x AM's - 2x melta, PF - 235 pts
10x AM's - No packs, 2x flamer, PW - 215 pts

Fast Attack
-------------
Speeder - HF/MM - 70 pts
Speeder - HF/MM - 70 pts
Speeder - HF/MM - 70 pts

Heavy
-------
Storm Raven - TLAC, TLMM, EA - 215 pts
Storm Raven - TLAC, TLMM, EA - 215 pts
5x Devestators - 4x ML's - 130 pts

Total: 2505 pts

I'd have to cut 5 pts... but I like it!
Thoughts? Which is your fav? what would you change? I'll be testing one of these lists against a 2500 pt kan wall this weekend... but I need feedback first

I'd say #1 is the best. My theory on the Stormraven is that you need at least 2, and you need them to be fully loaded. List #1 is the only one that covers all of that.

Have you considered a 3 Stormraven list? At 2500, you could take a 10 man DC (w/o JPs) fairly easily, so you'd only need 1 Furioso. You'd then throw in Mephiston and 5 TH/SS Termies, and still have 1 Elites slot left for Priests. You could also drop Mephy, take 10 TH/SS Terminators, and combat squad them to fill 2 SRs.

MrEconomics wrote:I'd say #1 is the best. My theory on the Stormraven is that you need at least 2, and you need them to be fully loaded. List #1 is the only one that covers all of that.

Have you considered a 3 Stormraven list? At 2500, you could take a 10 man DC (w/o JPs) fairly easily, so you'd only need 1 Furioso. You'd then throw in Mephiston and 5 TH/SS Termies, and still have 1 Elites slot left for Priests. You could also drop Mephy, take 10 TH/SS Terminators, and combat squad them to fill 2 SRs.

Can't combat squad til deployment, which means if I have to come from reserve then the terms have to slog it in and then load up. 3 ravens I've considered, however, the issue is I'd only have each half loaded and probably not be able to do triple baals due to points (3 baals is sick!)

So 1 vote for list 1!

Yeah, I forgot about the difficulties with combat squadding stuff in reserves.

Well, here's what I'm thinking re: 3 Stormravens, fleshed out:

HQ: Mephiston 250
EL: 5 TH/SS Terminators 225
EL: Furioso Dreadnought 125
TR: 10 DC Marines, 2 Power Fists 250
TR: DC Dread with Blood Talons 125
TR: DC Dread with Blood Talons 125
TR: 10 Assault Marines with 2 Meltaguns 210
TR: 10 Assault Marines with 2 Flamers 200
FA: Baal Predator 115
FA: Baal Predator 115
FA: Baal Predator 115
HS: Stormraven with EA 215
HS: Stormraven with EA 215
HS: Stormraven with EA 215

Total: 2500

Would a Chaplain/Reclusiarch/Lemartes be nice for the DC, yeah, but 10 DC Marines are going to do plenty of damage without the re-rolls.

I'm not sure how strongly you personally feel about Baal sponsons, but I don't like them. Heavy Bolters are weak weapons, and I see the Baal's role as anti-tank anyway.

MrEconomics wrote:Yeah, I forgot about the difficulties with combat squadding stuff in reserves.

Well, here's what I'm thinking re: 3 Stormravens, fleshed out:

HQ: Mephiston 250
EL: 5 TH/SS Terminators 225
EL: Furioso Dreadnought 125
TR: 10 DC Marines, 2 Power Fists 250
TR: DC Dread with Blood Talons 125
TR: DC Dread with Blood Talons 125
TR: 10 Assault Marines with 2 Meltaguns 210
TR: 10 Assault Marines with 2 Flamers 200
FA: Baal Predator 115
FA: Baal Predator 115
FA: Baal Predator 115
HS: Stormraven with EA 215
HS: Stormraven with EA 215
HS: Stormraven with EA 215

Total: 2500

Would a Chaplain/Reclusiarch/Lemartes be nice for the DC, yeah, but 10 DC Marines are going to do plenty of damage without the re-rolls.

I'm not sure how strongly you personally feel about Baal sponsons, but I don't like them. Heavy Bolters are weak weapons, and I see the Baal's role as anti-tank anyway.

Reason fior the sponsons is volume of shooting. 6 str 5 shots should be able to at least glance AV 11 once a turn combined with the 4 str 6 shots. Also, for hordes, that much shooting will huuurttttt! But I might try what you said and cut the sponsons for 1 game. Use the extra points for some more death co. or somethin

Why all the love for Baals, i find them worthless everytime i run against them. Now if you packed 3x3 Melta Attack Bikes then I would be scared... Thats Ard Boyz style right there

OneMeanDuck wrote:Why all the love for Baals, i find them worthless everytime i run against them. Now if you packed 3x3 Melta Attack Bikes then I would be scared... Thats Ard Boyz style right there

Cuz if I were gonna go that route I'd stay with the speeders I typically run

I'm trying something new. Never used Baals, but I hearxd good things and acquired 3 through trades, so might as well get some use outta em.

I'm a fan of the baals with sponsons on them, but another idea is to have a cheap baal with the flamestorm cannon. I will probably be running a baal with sponsons, a flamestorm cannon, and a typhoon speeder. The flamestorm can be real handy against wolves, more so against long fangs. If you go first, flat out scout move, then move 12" and flame the long fangs in cover. You go second, throw it in reserve and make it a threat along the edges of the board. The flamestorm could also be handy against lootas, snipers, or other back field support.

3 ACHB Baals alpha strike against MEQ’s: 12 x S6 shots and 18 x S5 results 5,8 kills average. With Flame Storms they kill 7,5 (3 hits/template). I’d take FSHB combo to get the most out of Baals

How far can Baal preds move? 24 inches?

Frankly, my experience at the pt level is limited.
But I think that the enemy will have lots of heavy weapons that she/he can bring to bear.
This could mean that your Storm Raven will not last very long.
After all, these tanks are less resilient than Serpents and Serpents can be downed.

Zid wrote:Reason fior the sponsons is volume of shooting. 6 str 5 shots should be able to at least glance AV 11 once a turn combined with the 4 str 6 shots.

6 Heavy Bolter shots will get at least 1 glance 50.6% of the time, assuming no cover. That falls to 36.9% with 5+ cover, and 29% with 4+ cover.

Against a T3 horde, you can expect 2.67 dead per round of Heavy Bolter shooting without cover, 1.33 dead with 4+ cover.

So I'm pretty unconvinced. That said, at 2500 points, they are probably a decent choice, as the main scarce thing is actually FOC slots, not points, and the sponsons do make the tank live longer.

MrEconomics wrote:

Zid wrote:Reason fior the sponsons is volume of shooting. 6 str 5 shots should be able to at least glance AV 11 once a turn combined with the 4 str 6 shots.

6 Heavy Bolter shots will get at least 1 glance 50.6% of the time, assuming no cover. That falls to 36.9% with 5+ cover, and 29% with 4+ cover.

Against a T3 horde, you can expect 2.67 dead per round of Heavy Bolter shooting without cover, 1.33 dead with 4+ cover.

So I'm pretty unconvinced. That said, at 2500 points, they are probably a decent choice, as the main scarce thing is actually FOC slots, not points, and the sponsons do make the tank live longer.

Well, after tryin em this weekend I might be inclined to agree... need a few more games first.

As for ravens dying, yeah, they do.... BUT they always deliver their cargo where its needed; which is the main purpose. Plus its pretty tough to kill when meltas dun work

I like the first list. It's definitely much more killy.

I love the Baals, especially if I get first turn. Scout move them flat out, then turn one you are already on their side of the board and within side armor range of just about anything.

I don't field a mech list without them they are just too usefull, even if they die that's shots that aren't hitting my razorbacks or vindicators.

I didnt think Mephiston could ride with a unit as he doesnt have IC status. It would be like having 2 units use the same transport at the same time isnt it? I know the Stormraven can hold 12 or 6 termie/JP troop equivelants PLUS a dread.

Zid wrote:...Meph + DC dread in other.

Is this what you're talking about? If so this is legal. That's 1 unit and 1 dread.

Stormravens can hold 2 squads if 6 or a unit of 12 and a dreadnought.

kaiservonhugal wrote:I didnt think Mephiston could ride with a unit as he doesnt have IC status. It would be like having 2 units use the same transport at the same time isnt it? I know the Stormraven can hold 12 or 6 termie/JP troop equivelants PLUS a dread.

Meph rides alone in a raven with a dread. Perfectly legal!

But, The SR is able to hold 2 units and a dread. Meph is 1 unit and the other 11 slots are free to the 2nd unit. Then you add the dread.

vyndetta85 wrote:But, The SR is able to hold 2 units and a dread. Meph is 1 unit and the other 11 slots are free to the 2nd unit. Then you add the dread.

No. With the exception of Apocalypse only stuff and Forge World weirdness, a transport can only contain 1 unit at most, plus any Independant Characters joined to that unit.

Mephiston is not an Independant Character, so he can't join a unit. Furthermore, infantry units that consist of a single model cannot be joined by Independant Characters. Thus, ICs can't join Mephiston.

So, if Mephiston is embarked in a Stormraven, the only other legal passenger is a Dreadnought.

MrEconomics wrote:

vyndetta85 wrote:But, The SR is able to hold 2 units and a dread. Meph is 1 unit and the other 11 slots are free to the 2nd unit. Then you add the dread.

No. With the exception of Apocalypse only stuff and Forge World weirdness, a transport can only contain 1 unit at most, plus any Independant Characters joined to that unit.

Mephiston is not an Independant Character, so he can't join a unit. Furthermore, infantry units that consist of a single model cannot be joined by Independant Characters. Thus, ICs can't join Mephiston.

So, if Mephiston is embarked in a Stormraven, the only other legal passenger is a Dreadnought.

What this dude said.

Also, thinking of trying the following list in my next prep game:

HQ
----
Mephiston - 250 pts

Elites
------
Furioso Dread - Melta/SB, Talons - 125 pts
Furioso Dread - Melta/SB, Talons - 125 pts
2x Sang Priests - jump packs - 150 pts

Troops
---------
10x Assault Marines - 2x melta, PF - 235 pts
10x Assault Marines - 2x melta, PF - 235 pts
10x Assault Marines - 2x melta, PF - 235 pts
7x Death Company - 1x power fist, 2x PW, lemartes - 345 pts

Fast Attack
-------------
Baal Pred - TLAC - 115 pts
Baal Pred - TLAC - 115 pts
2x Speeders - MM, HF - 140 pts

Heavy Support
------------------
Storm Raven - TLMM, TLAC, EA - 215 pts
Storm Raven - TLMM, TLAC, EA - 215 pts

Total: 2500 on the dot

Notes: Cut 1 baal for 2 HF/MM speeders, cut sponsons from baals (didn't find em useful), added lemartes instead of a normal chappy to the DC, added 2 PW's to the DC (maybe change it to a second fist?), changed my DC dread to a furioso (av 13 in CC is siiiicckkkk). Thoughts?

I like list 2 as it gives you the ability to have a libby buff another squad. I'd put a jump pack on the libby and stick heavy flamer and a magna grapple(can't remember if this can be done) on the furioso dread, change 2 of the assault squads pf to th. That fills out the 60 points you had spare.

Also to cover any anti-armor use the tl laz on the stormravens it gives you more range and leaves the baals to blow large/heavy squads off the table.

liturgies of blood wrote:
Also to cover any anti-armor use the tl laz on the stormravens it gives you more range and leaves the baals to blow large/heavy squads off the table.

Unless we're talking about Flamestorm Baals, armor is the Baal Predator's primary target. Against the most ideal of targets, T4 infantry with a 4+ save or less without cover, you can expect to kill just under 3 models when shooting at infantry. Against Long Fans (out of cover), you expect 1.38 dead. Expecting a Baal Predator to do much heavy lifting against enemy infantry is wishful thinking.

MrEconomics wrote:

liturgies of blood wrote:
Also to cover any anti-armor use the tl laz on the stormravens it gives you more range and leaves the baals to blow large/heavy squads off the table.

Unless we're talking about Flamestorm Baals, armor is the Baal Predator's primary target. Against the most ideal of targets, T4 infantry with a 4+ save or less without cover, you can expect to kill just under 3 models when shooting at infantry. Against Long Fans (out of cover), you expect 1.38 dead. Expecting a Baal Predator to do much heavy lifting against enemy infantry is wishful thinking.

Well the Baals have consistantly done poorly the last 2 games I've used em... should I try em for 1 or 2 more or just call it quits and make a new list?

After 2 test games I don't think the Death Co. will be that great... rage limits my choices with them; smart opponents always force my DC to face their big beefy squads and normally I'll kill it... then get counter-charged or shot to death. So, that being said, I'm going to try and test out the following:

HQ
----
Mephiston - 250 pts
Librarian - 100 pts

Elites
------
5x Assault Terms - 3x TH/SS, 2 claws - 215 pts
Furioso Dread - Melta/SB, Talons - 125 pts
2x Sang Priests - 1 with JP, 1 is corbulo - 180 pts

Troops
---------
10x Assault Marines - 2x melta, PF - 235 pts
10x Assault Marines - 2x melta, PF - 235 pts
10x Assault Marines - 2x melta, PF - 235 pts

Fast Attack
-------------
Baal Pred - TLAC - 115 pts
Baal Pred - TLAC - 115 pts
2x Speeders - HF/MM - 140 pts

Heavy Support
------------------
Storm Raven - TLMM, TLAC, EA - 215 pts
Storm Raven - TLMM, TLAC, EA - 215 pts

Total: 2375 pts

So... I'm tempted to try and find some cuts to fit in 5x Honor guard with 4x meltas. That would give me a huge threat AND a third priest to the list for 205 pts. Thoughts? Suggestions?

It looks pretty solid. Do you have the model/bits for flamestorms in the Baal turrets? I really liked that idea above of having them scout, move 12", and toast longfangs or other nasty but vulnerable units in cover. When going 2nd you still threaten a pretty wide area in from the flanks by Outflanking.

Mannahnin wrote:It looks pretty solid. Do you have the model/bits for flamestorms in the Baal turrets? I really liked that idea above of having them scout, move 12", and toast longfangs or other nasty but vulnerable units in cover. When going 2nd you still threaten a pretty wide area in from the flanks by Outflanking.

I'm sure I could mod the turrets on my Baals to do that. My only issue with flamestorms is... no AT! BUT if I do get my HG squad in there....

Did you count DC cost effiency on those bat reps? How much they costed and much they killed. The DC is one unit you can value them that way because it isn't doing anything other than simply kill.
edit: against Orks 165pts DC killed ~33 boyz. In the other game 345pts of DC killed about 200pts of terminators. (quick take from batreps)


The new list with HG sounds great. Melta -> plasma? 20pts, but double the shots and very good against elite infantry and most tanks rear armour.

Vasara wrote:Did you count DC cost effiency on those bat reps? How much they costed and much they killed. The DC is one unit you can value them that way because it isn't doing anything other than simply kill.
edit: against Orks 165pts DC killed ~33 boyz. In the other game 345pts of DC killed about 200pts of terminators. (quick take from batreps)


The new list with HG sounds great. Melta -> plasma? 20pts, but double the shots and very good against elite infantry and most tanks rear armour.

Exactly; the DC rarely RARELY make up their points. Plus, smart opponents will lock them down fighting stuff they rarely will win or they beat up andget owned. Terminators can be controlled, are much more survivable, and just as killy. I still reroll wounds on the LC's + hits due to the libby, I'm still str 5 and I5 on the charge, and Str 9 TH's is nothing to scoff about. PLUS a 2+/3+ on most guys and FnP? Its sweet as hell in sub 2K games (never lost a game with that list yet), DC sound great but smart opponents will cause them to do less than optimal... especially when for 365 pts I can get 5 terms, a priest, and libby and do more!

I vote list 2...

Drop Corbs and use a regular priest. The extra points for that EXTREMELY MINIMAL chance of getting that one reroll to work is pointless. Try something like Term armor on the Lib or some more wargear for someone.. Just.. Corbs.. yuck.