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So, I'm trying to figure out how best I'd equip a unit of Wyches. I like all three options.

There's actually 2 questions in this, neither were answered in GW's FAQ.

a) Does multiple Shardnet and Impalers cause the enemy to lose more attacks (to a minimum of 1, of course)?
b) It states all models in base-contact, does that mean that the entire enemy unit fighting your unit loses one attack, or doe the models have to be in contact with the model wearing one?

For example;

(W) = Wych
(S) = Net and Impaler
(E) = Enemy

(W) (W) (W) (W) (S)
(W) (S) (W) (W) (W)
(E) (E) (E) (E)

Does just the one enemy on the far left lose an attack, or do all the enemy models in the group lose one attack each (and as of question a, does her shardnet and impaler have any effect at all?)

It is the model in base contct with the shardnet that loses the attack. If you are in contact with 1 or 100 shardnets you will still only lose one attack

Alrighty, cheers.

If more than one model is in base contact, they all lose an attack tho - but it is specifically just those ones in contact with the shardnet.

SO make sure you base the powerfist in the unit, and watch the marine unit crumble in front of you

Powerfists hurts.

1 powerfist attack on your unit(with it's 4+ invul) does not hurt though; it usually does nothing at all, especially when it:

a) strikes last(well I1, which should be after your whole squad has made all of it's attacks)

b) only hits 50% of the time

c) the wound is saved 50% of the time.

All of the above give said single p-fist swing a 20.8333% chance to actually kill 1 Wych(after factoring in the 1-in-6 chance that it fails to wound) 1/2 hit* 5/6 wound* 1/2 failed save.

Kommissar Kel wrote:1 powerfist attack on your unit(with it's 4+ invul) does not hurt though; it usually does nothing at all, especially when it:

a) strikes last(well I1, which should be after your whole squad has made all of it's attacks)

b) only hits 50% of the time

c) the wound is saved 50% of the time.

All of the above give said single p-fist swing a 20.8333% chance to actually kill 1 Wych(after factoring in the 1-in-6 chance that it fails to wound) 1/2 hit* 5/6 wound* 1/2 failed save.

That's a MEQ?

That is a Tac Sgt(or any marine Sgt) receiving a Charge from the Wyches.

WS 4 to WS 4 is a 4+ to hit(50% chance)

S8 to T anything less than 7 is a 2+ to wound(83.333% chance to wound).

Wyches have a 4+ invulnerable save against wounds caused in CC(again, 50% chance to wound).

Convert all % to their Decimal value(for easier multiplication) and you have: .5*.83333*.5=.208333; reconvert that decimal back to % and you get 20.8333%

Every other power fist is going to be the same excepting in the cases where the model with the power fist has a WS>4, they have an easier time hitting. Those models with the higher WS will also generally have more than 2 attacks base though, so they would still get multiple attempts(-1 from the Shardnets, of course). WS1 is the only one that will have a harder time hitting the Wyches; and I cannot think of any models that have such a low WS.

Nah, I think it's most common for models with Power Fists to have WS 3-5, unless it's a character (in which case Lelith will already have taken care of the problem! *evil laughter*)

i was under the impression that an enemy lost an attack for each shardnet they were in base contact with, to a minimum of 1.

"every enemy model in base contact with the weilder fights with one less attack ... "

if your in base with 3 shardnets, you would loose 1 per shardnet.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It is the model in base contct with the shardnet that loses the attack. If you are in contact with 1 or 100 shardnets you will still only lose one attack

Except, S&I are wielder-centric, not enemy-centric. The power is one conferred on the Wych. The wording is very clear that multiple Wyches with S&I will have an effect.

I agree. Every enemy model in base contact with a wych with shardnet and impaler fights with 1 less attack.
If you are in base contact with 2 wyches with shardnet and impaler, you lose 2 attacks, etc.
But you always get a minimum of 1 attack by codex rule.

So... It stacks up?

Each Wych with S&I will reduce the attacks of any enemy in base contact by 1 (to a minimum of 1).

That's not actually what the shardnets say, is what Nos is taking pains to point out.

Show where they do what you just said they do.
I can show that "every enemy model in base contact with the wielder fight with one less attack." and what you are saying contradicts that, being 1, 2 or 3 attacks less than normal.

I saw 3 surround gazgul to the ork players annoyance.

ChrisCP wrote:That's not actually what the shardnets say, is what Nos is taking pains to point out.

Show where they do what you just said they do.
I can show that "every enemy model in base contact with the wielder fight with one less attack." and what you are saying contradicts that, being 1, 2 or 3 attacks less than normal.

Right. So, if I have 3 models with S&I in base contact with a Trygon:

Wych A says "every enemy model in base contact with [me] fights with one less attack."
Wych B says "every enemy model in base contact with [me] fights with one less attack."
Wych C says "every enemy model in base contact with [me] fights with one less attack."

The Shardnet & Impaler rules do not reference generic wargear options, they reference the individual and specific wielders. It is not worded like other rules that follow nos' answer.

If it said "a wielder", then sure, it'd work that way. But it doesn't. By referencing the specific wielder, it allows stacking.

... Where's Gwar when you need him?

If a model has 3 attacks how many constitute one less?

Depends on how many "one less attacks" effects are hitting it.

If a model has S4 how much is +1? Same thing.

Fighting with "one less attack" three times is... -3?

Fighting with Hammerhand affecting you twice is... +2?

Again "than normal". Very specific, how many attacks does the model normall fight with? It now fights with one less. Shardnets do not say "fights with one less attack for each shardnet", just than normal.
Also the whole "Q: Do the effects of the same psychic power cast multiple times on the same unit stack? (p50)
A: Yes, unless specifically stated otherwise." bit from the 1_3 rulebook update.

Which includes this amazing tit-bit
"The Assault Phase
Q: Can a model equipped with multiple grenades use all of them in the same Assault phase? (p36)
A: Yes."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Again "than normal". Very specific, how many attacks does the model normall fight with? It now fights with one less. Shardnets do not say "fights with one less attack for each shardnet", just than normal.
Also the whole "Q: Do the effects of the same psychic power cast multiple times on the same unit stack? (p50)
A: Yes, unless specifically stated otherwise." bit from the 1_3 rulebook update.

Which includes this amazing tit-bit
"The Assault Phase
Q: Can a model equipped with multiple grenades use all of them in the same Assault phase? (p36)
A: Yes."

I have the text in front of me - it doesn't say 'as normal' at all. In fact here's the full text:

"A shardnet and impaler count as two close combat weapons. Furthermore, to represent the entangling effects of the shardnet, every enemy model in base contact with the wielder fights with one less Attack (to a minimum of 1)."

And if you fight with 1 less attack you have fulfilled the rules for 1 or 1000 shardnets.

Same as IG advisors, which also do not stack.

They fight with one less Attack for one 'wielder'. Then they fight with one less Attack again for another wielder.

And, again, if you lose one attack you have fulfilled that rule for EVERY wielder you are in base contact with.

It is *exactly* the same situation as with IG Astropaths. Exactly. One instance of "+1" to reserves satisfies 1 or 100 astropaths.

Think I'll just go for the Razorflails or Hydra Gauntlets instead, like them better anyhow. =p

I am going to have to agree with everyone else, nos.

But for different reasoning.

1)You keep relating SN+I to IG adivisors, this relationship can be reinforced via the oft quoted SN+I's wording of the "Wielder"; and were it an ability of the wielder that would be a correct correlation. But, the reduction of an attack is not an ability granted to the wielder, it is an ability of the weapon, the wielder is referenced here to determine where the weapon's zone of influence is(base-to-base contact with the wielder of the weapon).

2) The "one less attack" wording is a literary long-form for a numerical value (-1 attack); there is a correlation here to PotMS, which has 2 such long-forms involved in it's rules(the rule itself is "fire one more weapon than normally allowed" being +1, and Cruising speed's "may not Fire" being 0; the net result is 1 weapon while cruising as 0+1=1).

3) Finally stack-ability is dependent on wording; A weapon removing 1 attack from models in base to base with the model fighting with said weapon should stack when multiple such weapons are within range. Now if the SN+I was dependent on "a" wielder I would totally agree with you and the case would be closed(as "a" is tantamount to "any"); but in this case it is "the" wielder; thus each individual set will remove 1 attack as the wielder of the first set negates one attack, and the wielder of a second set negates one more.

Most tournament players go with the razorflails or hydra gauntlets simply because it isn't wargear that your opponent can negate through positioning. I don't play a lot of people savvy enough to know that, though, so I like going with all shardnets because it adds a certain element to the assault phase that I enjoy trying to maximize.

Lelith and a unit of 9 bloodbrides with shardnets can surround a model and take away 4 attacks. Against monstrous creatures or enemy ICs, it's pretty funny if you can pull it off.

I don't understand this argument that 1000 shardnets will still only remove 1 attack total? That's as stupid as saying losing only one wound fulfills each individual component of failing 1000 armor saves.

Corrode wrote:They fight with one less Attack for one 'wielder'. Then they fight with one less Attack again for another wielder.

Again, that's not what the rules actually state.

If a 3 attack PF is in base contact with Lelith and a SN/I Wych, he would swing once. Every enemy model in contact with wielder, -1 A. In this case, he's in contact with two wielders. Stacking is occurring, -2 A.