Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey Dakka,
I was wanting to make a WHFB Army sadly i have no clue about it, Ive played Ultramarines to 4K points but never WHFB, and i was little curious wethier anyone can give any help with dieciding between WoC or Dark Elves for a new army and have no idea what i need to Start an Army so could anyone please help please. Cheers Guys

How are things in your local area? WoC is very popular in my area and appear very popular in the online community. The battalion is a great buy as well. Chaos Warriors are awesome, that stat lines are incredible and add on some customization with marks and they are awesome. Marauders are incredible for their low cost. The army does lack shooting except for their hell cannon. General tactic is get into close combat ASAP and wreck house. Dark Elves specialize in smaller units of troops that are designed to do stuff. They are more shooty and magic oriented and less close combat. All elves suffer from low T, Testosterone and Toughness, they do get access to the Hydras which are very tough. Their battalion is also good and there are threads around that have some good info on how to do some conversions to save some money. If I were to choose I'd go DE, there are just too many WoC generals out there.

Thanks Hargus, In my local area theres alot of WoC and Empire, few Tomb Kings and High elves, Theres one Skaven army, i haven't been into a WHFB night for about a month.

P.S. From what i can remember theres a few Orges aswell

Where I am from there is 1 other woc and I play BA so going up to an opponent and punching his units in the face seemed appropriate either is good woc is more forgiving army to an extent go with the models that you like.

Cheers Cow, I think ill roll with the Dark Elves, dunno hmm ill go look through some Battle Reports and see how others play with them, in my local area they nothing but a joke witch i hate but you cant change how others think.

Just stock up on a couple hydras and a few bolt throwers mixed with some nasty magic and well if anyone laughs at a hydra then there is something wrong cauldron of blood isnt bad from what I remember also repeater cross bows are nasty.

If you like ripping heads off with you bear hands and presenting them to your true god go chaos. If you like herding your enemy into the perfect position to taunt and humiliate then go DE.
IMO chaos lack the diversity of DE but if you get a DE army wrong your pretty much done for...

I was going to take Hydra's and a Bolt thrower with a Supreme Sorceres, and a Cauldron. Was thinking about throwing in Cold ones a few Spears and then chuck in Witch elves. but yeah im not a 100% wethier its even viable but yeah thats what i was going to go with

Are you gonna use the sorceress on foot or mounted? On foot a small block of spears are great for sacrificing for extra power dice

Bolt throwers are good but not as good this addition, if you need to save points then thats the first item to drop.

Repeater crossbows are one of the best core missile troopsin the game (give them a shield and they are useful in CC)

CoB is a good as a BSB option

CoK are not my fav models but are ace on the table for flanking units

Witches in a biggish block with flaming banner and CoB blessing are scary bad (these will not help you make friends)

Dont forget shades IMO one of the best units in the DE book, though all the units are very good

Seeing as they think DE are a joke a rude awakening wouldn't be bad my friend he talked smack about woc and how awesome his bretts are we established that she has no right to talk after he lost everything he had and I lost a 10 man marauder some warriors but that was the only full unit.

Anyways I think you need to show that your army is up to a challeng and hydras are under priced for what they deliver.

As noted above, Dark Elves are certainly no joke on the table. Yes, they are less forgiving than more direct armies such as WoC, but you also have more flexibility than "See this giant block of beatstick? It's coming right at you."

If you're looking at an army with a Battalion box at its center, you could look into something like this:

2000pts

Supreme Sorceress - Lv.4, Pegasus, Pendant of Khaleth, Shadow - 345
Death Hag - Cauldron, BSB - 225
20x Crossbowmen - Shields, Musician - 225
20x Crossbowmen - Shields, Musician - 225
20x Corsairs - Handbows (or AHW), Sea Serpent Standard, Musician - 240
5x Harpies - 55
5x Shades - Additional Hand Weapons - 85
21x Witch Elves - Banner of Murder, Musician - 250
War Hydra - 175
War Hydra - 175

I am aware that it does not use any of your Cold One Knights. You can use the torso bits for character conversions since their place armor looks very nice, and I would use the Cold Ones themselves along with High Elf chariots for our own Cold One Chariots which are very cost-effective units when combined with our Hydras for T5, respectable number of attacks, and S5 impact hits. I'd actually never take the Cold One Knights as-is because the Chariots do the same job better thanks to a smaller footprint, higher toughness, and more maneuverability.

If the people you play with are open to letting you use AHW Corsair models as Witches, then you can do a little swapping and fit a Chariot into the list. Of course, if you're playing at different point levels that can also open more room for the Chariots.

CoRb12 wrote: but you cant change how others think.

Unless you kick their asses with them.

Eldar Own wrote:

CoRb12 wrote: but you cant change how others think.

Unless you kick their asses with them.

Over and over again.

With that out of the way I'm fairly successful with my Dark Elves and the first thing I can say is double hydra. Outside of that I use a spearblock as powerstones, two sorcerei, dark riders, and shades w/ rending stars + manbane assassin. My two typical lores are shadow and death. Basic strategy is harass with the fast units, and sit back blasting with magic, when they get close hit them with hydras. If I have points add in Cold One Chariots and a Cauldron BSB.

Also WoC do not have a lot of missile options so 2 or even 3 Hydras will bring most opponents crying to their mothers (though this is an easy way to lose all your friends)
A* for super hydra cheese

Kura wrote:

Eldar Own wrote:

CoRb12 wrote: but you cant change how others think.

Unless you kick their asses with them.

Over and over again.

With that out of the way I'm fairly successful with my Dark Elves and the first thing I can say is double hydra. Outside of that I use a spearblock as powerstones, two sorcerei, dark riders, and shades w/ rending stars + manbane assassin. My two typical lores are shadow and death. Basic strategy is harass with the fast units, and sit back blasting with magic, when they get close hit them with hydras. If I have points add in Cold One Chariots and a Cauldron BSB.

Over and over again sounds good to me

Anyway, double hydra is great against WoC, as Kura said, but I'd also reccomend a lvl4 sorceress with the lore of Shadow and, perhaps, a tome of furion. With all those spells you're bound to roll Okkam's Mindrazor which is THE best spell. EVER. It'll allow any old unit to just rip a WoC unit to shreds, as it gets over on of DE's biggest problems, lots of S3. It's best used on a unit with a high number of attacks, such as witch elves or corsairs (preferably in a horde). Even if you don't roll Okkam's then you've still got the means to lower a units toughness or stregnth by up to 3 (or both) which will assist you no end in kicking ass.

DE are a finesse army. WoC are about as subtle as a brick.

DE can beat WoC... but it is an uphill battle. Point-for-point, very little DE have can handle Chaos Warriors in the flanks, much less head-on, so you need to be VERY careful with your matchups. I charged a block of 20ish on three sides, for a starting advantage of +8 SCR, killed about half, and still lost combat by 11. Truly nasty dudes there.

Frankly, I think Chaos Warriors are way too good for CORE troops of their point cost. They should either be significantly more expensive, or shifted to special choices where they can remain the same cost but are (somewhat) limited in availability.

DE do have the tools to handle Woc, but it almost requires tailoring your list to counter them. Lore of Metal, large block of Executioners with ASF Hag BSB and cauldron support(she won't last the round, but she will allow the Exes to go first that one round - if you pick your target right, that should be enough), Hydras, and Cold One Knights can do it. Spend core on Dark Riders, DE core infantry are meat for the slaughter vs. WoC.

Ockham's Mindrazor is amazing, true. Because it is amazing, you can bet that if you have it, the other guy will save dice to dispel it, or even save his scroll for it on that crucial turn. I've never gotten it through without Irresistable Force.

Hydras last I remember those died really fast the hellcannon shot one and killed it the other ran into a combat lord (I don't know why he thought that was a good idea) that one died as well.

Shades arggggg those guys gahh hate those.

Hydras are nasty he just made bad choices.

Never actually fought a cauldron but seen another guy have issues with it.

Vulcan wrote:DE are a finesse army. WoC are about as subtle as a brick.

Many times over.

Vulcan wrote:Ockham's Mindrazor is amazing, true. Because it is amazing, you can bet that if you have it, the other guy will save dice to dispel it, or even save his scroll for it on that crucial turn. I've never gotten it through without Irresistable Force.

Again, this is absolutely true. What I find works best when you have Ockham's in the background is to cast debuff spells to lower strength, toughness, and even movement (that big block of nasty isn't as scary when they're M1) before attempting big spells like Mindrazor or Pit. Your opponent can either let the debuffs roll through which you can then take advantage of, or you pick off their dispel dice early and then toss the big spell of the turn.

This works if you score more than 5 power dice haha mindrazor so mean.
The de buff spells still need 2 to 3 dice and if you are throwing 4 to 6 dice that usually means you don't have that many dice.

Still nasty bah just be careful woc will make sure if you miscast that you will suffer infernal puppet is not your friend haha.

Dark elves are my main army, and I'm most happy to face warriors.
Warriors are slow and predictable.

I typically run an unkillable lord (1+ armor, reverse ward, 2+ ward vs fire, and 4 S6 armor piercing attacks, and stubborn).
That lord can go into any unit warriors can put down and tie it up the whole game. I usually send him in alone, into the center of the table, and use hit holding power to divide the chaos army in half.

For wizards, I'll go lore of metal against warriors.
Lore of metal, combined with shooting, will kill/weaken warriors to the point where elf infantry can finish them.
Glittering Robes is pretty sweet, 3+ armor spearmen are surprisingly good.




-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:I typically run an unkillable lord (1+ armor, reverse ward, 2+ ward vs fire, and 4 S6 armor piercing attacks, and stubborn).
That lord can go into any unit warriors can put down and tie it up the whole game. I usually send him in alone, into the center of the table, and use hit holding power to divide the chaos army in half.

Dreadlord - Soulrender, Dragonhelm, Pendant of Khaleth, Crown of Command, Heavy Armor, Sea Dragon Cloak - 247

A very potent combination, but how are you getting 1+ armor? That combination leaves 5 magic points left, so it's not from Armor of Darkness and you need the Dragonhelm for the fire ward anyway. Using a great weapon means he doesn't get Shield armor bonus in combat, and even if you take the shield it's still a 2+ vs. ranged, 3+ in combat.

Awesome stuff guys, thanks alot. Kirb i think ill run that list looks really good!



EDIT: And Pob from what ive been told i would put her in a troop for those extra rolls.

Heavy Armor 5+
Mounted 4+
Shield 3+
Dragonhelm 2+
SDC 1+/0+

Dragonhelm improves your armor by 1.

Ah, I accounted for the Dragonhelm adding one but I didn't figure in he may be mounted. No reason not to, though. Tossing Mr. Unkillable on a Dark Steed only adds to his positioning ability, or on a Pegasus if you really want to go after something in the back. I can't recall, does using a Great Weapon while mounted still give the full +2 strength? Last time I had to deal with such a situation was in 7th when the answer was "No". Though, that still doesn't quite grant a 1+ in combat since you're using a two-handed weapon. Not to discredit the build in any way, it looks like great fun!

You could drop him on a cold one if you wanted the AS to be 1+

Pob82 wrote:You could drop him on a cold one if you wanted the AS to be 1+

Ever had one of those "Oh, duh. I should've thought of that" moments? That's pretty much me since the whole mounted option came up.

Yeah, I should have mentioned cold one.
That gives you the last part of the 1+ save, makes you immune to psych, cause fear, and gives you another S4 attack.
Causing fear really is a nice bonus.

-Matt

Kirbinator wrote: I can't recall, does using a Great Weapon while mounted still give the full +2 strength? Last time I had to deal with such a situation was in 7th when the answer was "No". Though, that still doesn't quite grant a 1+ in combat since you're using a two-handed weapon. Not to discredit the build in any way, it looks like great fun!

According to the Weapons section on p90 yes you still get the +2.

In 7E it went from +2 to +1, and the mounted GW weilder disappeared.

Now in 8E they have restored mounted GW to +2.