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Have recently had this come up not sure what to do in future.

Slann miscasts rolls a double one so want to pass it over, teclis is in sight so roll for cupped hands and successfully pass it over, now does teclis take the miscast or with his special rule does he ignore it

He takes the miscast as he ignores only the first miscast HE makes. He didnt make this miscast, the slann did...

Agreed with Nos.

The FAQ mentions that the Slann rolls on the miscast table, then once the result is determined passes that onto the other caster. This is important because you are passing the results of the miscast over.

It's as Nos said. The wording for it is that he ignores the first miscast he makes, but since he didn't make this one, he can't use his rule to ignore it.

Sorry to take this a little off subject but you get to use infernal puppet if you have it (WoC army) and would you roll it when the slaan miscasts or after he passes it on?

Since you are passing on the result, I would say you have to use the Puppet first. The Puppet modifies the dice roll for the miscast result, where as Cupped Hands pass along the result. By the time you can use Cupped Hands, the window for the Puppet has closed.

Ok thanks

the slann player chooses the order in which cupped hand and infernal puppet take place, and remember you can roll on infernal puppet but decide not to apply the result, and you can use it on you own miscasts

Dont you use puppet then the slaan tests cupped hands and then shenanigans happen and you can use on all miscasts good times.

cowpow16 wrote:Dont you use puppet then the slaan tests cupped hands and then shenanigans happen and you can use on all miscasts good times.

It's all the same really.
If the slaan chooses, he'll make the puppet go 1st.
If you determine the final miscast, then pass, the puppet goes 1st.

There isn't a good reason for the Slaan player to pass the miscast and then let the chaos player make it less harmful. Either interpretation favors the Slaan letting/making the puppet go 1st.

-Matt

You have to pass the miscast *result* over - if it can be modified furhter it isnt a result.

+1 puppet first

puppet would go first before cupped.

puppet modifies the roll on the table, then the slann player decides to cup.

if the slann players cups, there is no roll on the table to change with puppet because the effect is being moved not the roll.

I seem to recall there being something in the BRB or a FAQ which says whatever players turn it is decides the order which effects like these take place.

If that is the case then wouldn't it be possible to have puppet happen after cupped hands?

Also a result is a result regardless if it passes onto another model. The Slann rolls on the miscast table and after seeing the result decides to pass it on to the chaos sorc who then uses the puppet to modify the result.

I seem to recall there being something in the BRB or a FAQ which says whatever players turn it is decides the order which effects like these take place.

It'd be rather difficult for the Slann to miscast during the Chaos players turn.

I think the Hellcannon can cause a miscast, but I am not sure on the wording of it, and if the Slann can pass that miscast over. In most cases, the Slann can decide what goes first, which usually means the puppet goes before cupped hands.

As a Lizardmen player and a very large user of the Cupped hands, the rules state that the Slann resolves the miscast results, rerolling the results if they wish (if they took that discipline) and once the results are determined they hand off the results, there are no further rolls. The results are the results regardless.

The hell cannon causes every wizard to miscast, result of "3" from memory.

You are handing off "the" result; if you modify after it is not "the" result.

I agree with your interpretation of the language Nos, but we all know GW's use of the English language is subpar at best.

Here is the FAQ Infreak was talking about

Q. There are several items that can affect miscasts, such as Cupped Hands of the Old Ones, Soul of Stone and Infernal Puppet. If more than one (or multiples of the same item) are present, in what order should the effects be applied? (p102)
A. The player whose turn is taking place chooses.

So in most cases (ie. the Slann naturally miscasts), the Lizardman player decides the order. In the rare case where a Hellcannon causes the miscast, the Chaos player may decide the order in which it goes.

This is quite simple actually....let me break it down

1) You always roll on the miscast table in the main rule book with cupped hands
2) The Slann player determines the results of the miscast first, by their means available to them
3) Once determined they are handed off, there are zero further rolls and zero further items used


If you read the description of miscast items, or items that affect miscasts, they only come into play when the wizard who miscasts uses the item. So, if the Slann miscasts only the Slann gets to roll, and once determined the results are handed off on a 2+.

Crom wrote:If you read the description of miscast items, or items that affect miscasts, they only come into play when the wizard who miscasts uses the item. So, if the Slann miscasts only the Slann gets to roll, and once determined the results are handed off on a 2+.

...except the Infernal Puppet, which has become central to this discussion.

Manfred von Drakken wrote:

Crom wrote:If you read the description of miscast items, or items that affect miscasts, they only come into play when the wizard who miscasts uses the item. So, if the Slann miscasts only the Slann gets to roll, and once determined the results are handed off on a 2+.

...except the Infernal Puppet, which has become central to this discussion.

Again the Cupped Hands states the Slann decides the roll and passes the results, results cannot be modified further. The Slann can modify the miscast all they want but once it is determined it is determined. So, if the other player had an infernal puppet they would have to use it before the Cupped hands roll took place, because modifying it further wouldn't be passing results. It states in the FAQ the Slann chooses what order the items go in as well.

I guess the Infernal Puppet item does state that any miscast can be affected. The OP is talking about Teclis's ability to ignore the first miscast every magic phase, but since Teclis isn't casting the spell that ability does not apply.

I think the crux of the argument comes down to the definition of the "result".

Your lizards miscast, you roll a '3'. Is the '3' the result (owing to the fact that there may be other modifiers), or is "Dimensional Cascade" the result? That I suppose is where you'll have to agree/disagree with your opponent. If you pass off the '3', then the Chaos Player might well argue they want a '4' instead.

(Incidentally, I can't recall if there's even a difference between a 3 and a 4 on the table, but bear with my meaning.)

It wasn't the OP that asked about the WoC item. Its important to note that the Slann passes the results of the miscast over, as that bypasses Teclis' ability to ignore the effects of the first miscast he makes. He isn't making the miscast, so he still suffers due to cupped hands.

The next question by Cowpow was in regards to how Cupped Hands and Infernal Puppet interact. The FAQ makes this one easy. The player whose turn it is, decides the order. So if the Hellcannon causes the Slann to miscast, then Cupped Hands could go before Puppet if the WoC player decided to do so. If the Slann miscasts during his own phase (much more likely) then the Lizardman player decides the order in which the items are resolved.

Can't argue with an FAQ that spells it out that clearly.

Well the Cupped Hands rules clearly state you must resolve the miscast roll first, then pass it, but if it is not the Slann's turn the other player decides the order. I mean the Slann can take an ability to reroll on the miscast chart, so even after the miscast chart is modified by another item, the Slann could just reroll it, then pass it off. I would have to agree with Lehnsher about the interpretation of the FAQ, whoever turn it is decides the order

Lehnsherr - except as a one use only item, the WoC player cannot "know" that the LM player has Cupped Hands, and nothing allows you to ask if they do.

Lehnsherr - except as a one use only item, the WoC player cannot "know" that the LM player has Cupped Hands, and nothing allows you to ask if they do.

True. The WoC player could ask though after the Hellcannon mishap "Would you (meaning the LM player) like to modify the miscast before I use puppet?"

At which point the LM player would have to declare their use of Cupped Hands. If they say no, then the WoC player uses Puppet, and then the LM player elects to use Cupped Hands, I think they have broken both the spirit of the game, and the rule outlined in the FAQ.

I also agree with the idea that its ridiculous for a WoC player to have to ask a LM player every time the HC causes a mishap that question. It seems its just better for the game as a whole for the LM player to abide by the FAQ and declare use of the Cupped Hands in those cases.

In my mind it goes like this:
1. Cannon causes miscast.
2. Players declare the use of miscast modifying gear.
3. Player who's turn it is decides the order of resolving them.
4. Duh, see what happens.

Hm...well, as of now, I'm going to agree with Nosferatu on this. Here it is:

The current player chooses what order items resolve in. However, that only applies to items/abilities that could potentially go in any order, such as Soul of Stone and the Infernal Puppet. The Cupped Hands of the Old Ones, by necessity, must be used (or not) after these other items, since it does something different, and that something occurs after the something these other rules takes effect. Yes-yes?

Warpsolution wrote:Hm...well, as of now, I'm going to agree with Nosferatu on this. Here it is:

The current player chooses what order items resolve in. However, that only applies to items/abilities that could potentially go in any order, such as Soul of Stone and the Infernal Puppet. The Cupped Hands of the Old Ones, by necessity, must be used (or not) after these other items, since it does something different, and that something occurs after the something these other rules takes effect. Yes-yes?

I would agree since the cupped hands passes the result, but in the FAQ it says the player who has the current turn decides.

Ah, but that's the thing, isn't it? The Cupped Hands affect one aspect of the game. The Puppet/Soul of Stone/etc. affect another.

If your opponent breaks from combat on your turn, you can't decide that the Battle Standard's Hold Your Ground! rule takes effect after the break test is resolved. That's not how it works.

I realize that the FaQ mentions those three item/abilities all in one shot, and then says "you pick the order", but here's the bottom line: You do pick the order. Within the preset order of the game. GW offered an example, and it was an incorrect one.