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Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka





Southampton

I like to introduce realism whereever possible in my games of Warhammer and whilst I accept that the rules are abstract by necessity, I do think there are occassions where a simple nip and tuck can overcome something happening in a game that wouldn't happen in real life.

This proposed rule seeks to tackle the problem that the game allows war machines to be used as snipers against individual models. In reality, the chance of a cannon hitting an individual on the other side of the battle is incredibly remote. There was an occassion where a british general in the Sikh wars (who was a distinctive figure on the battlefield) drew the fire of the opposing guns away from his troops, because he knew it was unlikely that he would be hit. Indeed, they fired everything they had at him, but he didn't get a scratch.

To reflect this fact, I have been trialling "Unlikely Shot" in a few games. This allows any character / monster model to be picked out by a cannon, stone thrower etc, but if the cannon ball bounce or war machine template lands on that model (after scatter etc), they are only hit on a 6+. Monsters are only hit on a 4+. This also replaces the "Look Out, Sir!" rule.

This doesn't make characters or monsters immune to war machine fire, but it does reduce the situations where monsters are "automatically dead" by turn 2 against war machine heavy armies and allows characters a bit more freedom in wandering about the battlefield. It also refocuses the role of war machines i.e. to carve great big chunks out of enemy infantry.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/07/10 09:48:12


   
Made in au
Dangerous Outrider





what about a bouncing cannon ball rolling underneath wide monsters, HA!.
   
Made in us
Whiteshield Conscript Trooper




Bristol, RI USA

I like this! Dwarven Cannons are like sniper rifles in this version of the game, and I have lost a lot of single models to cannon fire/stone throwers...

I will suggest this rule change for playtesting in my group and see what happens.

Thanks!
   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos





On the perfumed wind

I understand the thought process behind this- but would absolutely hate to have to go up against Hell Pits if I only tagged them on a 4+ even if a shot connected. And once those things get in to a Dwarf army, they can really churn their way through without hardly slowing down...

It *would* force me to take some non-war-machine shooting, just to have a hope of dealing with peg riders and monsters just running through all my shooting.

“It was in lands of the Chi-An where she finally ran him to ground. There she kissed him deeply as he lay dying, and so stole from him his last, agonized breath.

On a delicate chain at her throat, she keeps it with her to this day.”
 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Flashman wrote:To reflect this fact, I have been trialling "Unlikely Shot" in a few games. This allows any character / monster model to be picked out by a cannon, stone thrower etc, but if the cannon ball bounce or war machine template lands on that model (after scatter etc), they are only hit on a 6+. Monsters are only hit on a 4+. This also replaces the "Look Out, Sir!" rule.

This doesn't make characters or monsters immune to war machine fire, but it does reduce the situations where monsters are "automatically dead" by turn 2 against war machine heavy armies and allows characters a bit more freedom in wandering about the battlefield. It also refocuses the role of war machines i.e. to carve great big chunks out of enemy infantry.


So, basically, everyone gets a 'look out sir', whether they're in a unit or not?

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka





Southampton

sebster wrote:So, basically, everyone gets a 'look out sir', whether they're in a unit or not?


Essentially yes, but with armour, ward, regeneration saves already, I thought a "to hit roll" was less confusing.

EDIT - Note also that it only applies to individual characters, individual monsters or a character mounted on a monster.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/11 14:58:14


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





The role of many war machines is to demolish monsters, not do a damn thing to infantry. A Str 10, multi-wound shot is for a monster or hero. Period. That's their job.

Without that deterant, champions and monsters can really waste rank and file troops and their only counters are themselves--and tough luck if the enemy has a better hero or monster.

A cannon is a hard counter to that. It doesn't have to be realistic, but it's as realistic as 1 dude walking up to an army of 50 spearmen and hacking them to pieces without taking a scratch.

I think monsters need a little love. Heroes/Lords certainly don't.

   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka





Southampton

I accept there some characters out there who will only listen to a cannonball in the chops, but I don't tend to use them myself. Therefore having a lowly vampire decapitated on the first turn just because they dared step outside their unit is irritating.

I guess it depends on how you want your games to play. I really do favour realism (somewhat daft in a game depicting flying monsters and vortexes of flaming death, but there you go ) but YMMV

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/12 17:20:52


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





But this is game is about armies and generals. They repeatedly mention that. Generals don't go running off by themselves or they aren't leading their troops. They aren't inspiring with their presence.

MAYBE some guy in some battle in some historical context did that (though frankly I highly doubt it), but it was literally one in a zillion out of the entire history of humanity.

   
Made in ca
Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought




Victoria B.C.

I really like this idea and want to try it out.

My lord never really gets shot since tz lord on a disc with a 1+ armor 3+ ward isnt going to die very fast but still.

Still you are doing something wrong if you dont protect your beefy lords and heroes with ward saves.

I like the idea tho might need a bit more tweeking to work well with this game but I like the idea.

Overview of the WoC army book.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/388667.page#3171854
Ralin Givens is the chaos to my warriors. Ra Ra Ra go team awesome I mean chaos
Tzack Vahr Zhen's unholy followers.
all hail Howie Mandel deal or no deal it dosnt matter tzeentch wins
Khorne flakes part of a good breakfast when you plan to kill maim and burn all!!!

Do you have enough Priests do you?
 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





This rule seems to be an attempt to prevent one situation with a blanket that effects many more.

A single man--even a man on a horse--wouldn't be an easy target for a cannon. A dragon, however, would be.

That said, a cannon can't exactly be aimed quickly. A single target should be able to move away long before the cannon's been loaded, aimed, and fired. Hence why they were pointed into tightly packed regiments.

So I don't think this is going to cut it, in the end. Giving every monster a 4+ save against cannon fire is...probably not cool. Sure, it sucks to lose your cool monster on turn two thanks to a battery of three cannons, but what about the guy who just takes one or two war machines?

I think a better way to represent such an unlikely shot is to simulate what would actually happen: the cannonball would drift a little this way or that; to the left and right, as well as forward or back. Something like: the shot scatters- roll the scatter die, then roll the artillery die and half the result, re-rolling Misfires.

Final note: it is completely fine to ask for realism in fantasy. We assume all the basic rules of the world are in play; the laws of physics apply, even in a world of dragons and daemons.

 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tzeentch's Fan Girl






Southern New Hampshire

First off, we're talking a whole three armies that have anything resembling cannons (Empire, Dwarves, Skaven). Only one of those armies really even uses its weapon on a regular basis (Empire; in my experience, Dwarves tend to stick to Bolt Throwers and Stone Throwers, and Skaven are hit-or-miss on field the Warp-Lightning Cannon).

So really, you're talking about one army that routinely fields cannons, and it's not even a hugely popular one. The army also has very little else for dealing with monsters and uber-characters, as it has none of its own.

Cannons are the Empire's (and Dwarves', to a lesser extent) counter to those things. Even with the current rules, characters have an extra 2+/4+ save via "Look out, Sir!" on top of any gear they're packing. Monsters have the adavntage of having more wounds and thus being more likely to survive the impact.

I find this to be rather unnecessary, frankly.

She/Her

"There are no problems that cannot be solved with cannons." - Chief Engineer Boris Krauss of Nuln

Kid_Kyoto wrote:"Don't be a dick" and "This is a family wargame" are good rules of thumb.


DR:80S++G++M--B+IPwhfb01#+D+++A+++/fWD258R++T(D)DM+++
 
   
Made in us
Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

If sniping characters in units is a problem, just have all the hits distributed like normal shooting. If you've got 5 rank and file, the character simply won't get hit.
As for monsters, IMO, cannons are made to kill them. It would be like complaining that thunder stomping is killing infantry. It's one of the basics of balance in the game.

I see character sniping as a big problem for 2 armies.
Tomb Kings and Vampire counts. Both those armies have rules that the loss of a single character will cause the whole army to slowly die.
Having 1 shotted a Heirophant before (in tournament, turn 1), that single Look Out roll determining the outcome of the game is pretty lame.
This is more likely a problem with those specific army books than with cannons.

-Matt



 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tzeentch's Fan Girl






Southern New Hampshire

Have you ever done the math on how hard it is to kill a character in a unit with a single cannonball? I have - it ain't pretty.

Between hitting the target in the first place (with two artillery die rolls), "Look out, Sir!", wounding, ward saves, and multiple wounds, there are a lot of things that can go wrong. I've only done it a handful of times, and I've been playing Empire since 2001.

It comes down to a lot more than one "Look out, Sir!" roll.

She/Her

"There are no problems that cannot be solved with cannons." - Chief Engineer Boris Krauss of Nuln

Kid_Kyoto wrote:"Don't be a dick" and "This is a family wargame" are good rules of thumb.


DR:80S++G++M--B+IPwhfb01#+D+++A+++/fWD258R++T(D)DM+++
 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





That is true, but I still think that such a massive part of the game being determined by one part of one phase is pretty lame.
...though Vampires hardly feel much when they lose their general, beyond losing an awesome character. "Just kill the general" they said, "their army will crumble" they said. Turn two. Plague Censer Bearers. Dead Vampire Lord. The army was fine. *grumble*

Also, Dwarfs don't use Bolt Throwers anymore, since they're awful in 8th. Cannons are way, way better. And nearly as reliable.

Randomizing all hits as per shooting sounds like a solid choice; it follows the same logic as the Look Out, Sir! roll, except the chances are closer to 0% than they are to...whatever the actual chance is, all things considered. Really, a cannon just shouldn't be able to pick out one man-sized or cavalry-sized model and aim at him.

Hitting lone characters is also incredibly unlikely. And if there was some form of mini-scatter or whatever that protected my character a little more, I'd be more likely to deploy him alone, which I feel would be cool, in certain situations. Grey Seer with Skitterleap comes to mind.

 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tzeentch's Fan Girl






Southern New Hampshire

Scattering a cannonball would just slow things down and get way too wacky.

And currently, the chances of dying to a cannon are right around 1-2% if my memory serves. I'm sure the math is still on Dakka somewhere. In 'reality', I'd certainly be willing to point my cannon in the enemy general's direction. Am I going to count on hitting him? Of course not. But maybe I'll get lucky. Same thought pattern holds true in Warhammer. I'm gonna try it, and if it works, cool; if not, I just took out some (likely) elite infantry and I'll try again nect turn.

...and how are Bolt Throwers awful?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alright, so I redid the math. This assumes a good placement of the shot and the two Artillery Die rolls have sufficient distance in them to hit the target. For this purpose, we're assuming a 3-Wound Lord with a 4+ ward save.

Artillery Die 1: 5/6 (83.3) chance of not getting a misfire
Artillery Die 2: 5/6 (83.3) chance of not getting a misfire
"Look out, Sir!": 1/6 (16.7) chance of the roll being a '1' (indicating the character is, indeed, hit)
To Wound Roll: 5/6 (83.3) chance of wounding the character
Ward Save: 3/6 (50.0) chance of ward save being failed
Number of Wounds: 4/6 (66.7) chance of causing a lethal number of wounds (3+)

TOTAL: 3.219% chance of death

When you factor in the possibility of missing the character entirely due to bad Artillery Die rolls, this chance goes down even further.

Is cannon sniping a viable tactic? Sure. Reliable? Hardly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/15 03:33:28


She/Her

"There are no problems that cannot be solved with cannons." - Chief Engineer Boris Krauss of Nuln

Kid_Kyoto wrote:"Don't be a dick" and "This is a family wargame" are good rules of thumb.


DR:80S++G++M--B+IPwhfb01#+D+++A+++/fWD258R++T(D)DM+++
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Randomized shooting would make really choppy heroes in units unkillable. You'd then have a situation where you need to have a better hero and be able to challenge. Everything should have a counter besides a better version of itself. And war machines aren't exactly a massive counter, are they a counter to solo heroes? Sure. But you aren't meant to run solo heroes.

As for realism in the game. It's fine, but it takes a massive, unbelievable back seat to balance.

   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





I think the best solution really is to scatter the cannon ball. If nothing else, it just plain makes sense that a cannon ball isn't coming out of that cannon with laser guided accuracy.

I'd probably just add another roll, a D6 for the scatter to the left in inches, a D6 for the scatter to the right in inches.

Then, depending on how the odds worked out, I'd see if "Look Out Sir" could be changed to a 4+


EDIT
Hmm, you've a 1/6 chance of no scatter (left roll and right roll being equal) and 5/36 of scattering an inch left, and 5/36 of scattering an inch right, so all up it's 16/36 of scattering no more than an inch either way, and still clipping the original target. I think that'd probably offset a move of "Look Out Sir" to a 4+.

What do you all think?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/15 06:22:01


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
 
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