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As per title, I have a mate trying to model his lizardmen to represent a corrupted spawning.

Is there any existing fluff available that would serve as inspiration?

Also, I have had a word in his ear about also doing this as a surviving spawning that was lost in the wastes, has become slightly corrupted, but fought its way back to the Old World. Thus, they could be similar in appearance to the Wulfen 13th Company, in the fact that he could include Chaos armour, shields and other replacements for scavenged/damaged wargear...

So far, we are looking through Forgeworld's Warhammer Forge for inspiration... and have decided that some of the NEW Nurgle monsters are definitely options, including:

Stegadon/Carnosaur
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer/WARHAMMER_CHAOS/TAMURKHAN-ON-TOAD-DRAGON.html

Kroxigor/Salamanders
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer/WARHAMMER_CHAOS/NURGLE-PLAGUE-TOADS.html

Kroxigors (with suitable head swap and some bits conversion
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer/WARHAMMER_CHAOS/NURGLE-BILE-TROLLS.html

What are your suggestions Dakka?

With Chaos everything is possible. Besides all temple citities outside of lustria got destroyed or cut off during the cataclism, who knows what's happening there.

I believe there is fluff of corrupted spawning pools, where mutated saurus and skinks come out, usually to fall dead within hours. It's not unlikely for a spawning to be corrupted, but stable enough for it not to completely destroy them.

The Stegadons, Carnosaurs, Sallies, Razordons etc. however will require more than just "the pools were tainted", since they're captured jungle creatures and would have to have been tainted previously by something else.

Whos to say tainted skinks can't tame them, even if the creatures themselves aren't tainted.

Altho a chaos stegadon could look awesome.

Well, the fact that he linked mutated models to use in place of some monsters was what spurred me to say it.

Basically, it will still play using a Lizardmen armies book, but the modelling is where he will change it up.

This is all. Im trying to get accurate references for his use to justify it and build a solid background of fluff.

If the spawnings tha are tainted are destroyed or will never survive incubation, then this is something we will need to address, possibly just with the 13th Company survival theory... salvage and repair...

Naah the spawnings Avatar speaks of where tainted by Clan pestilen's plagues. I believe there was a story oflizardmen destroying as pool that got tainted but if it was isolated that won't be happening.

Also there is a story about a young (newer spawning) slaan diying while struggling not to get possesed by an injured greater deamon. Imagine what would happen if a deamon possesed one of them frogs.

It's a nice idea, which I have had before myself, and I can see it happening.

You can go a long way with it both wi background and modelling.

HoverBoy wrote:Naah the spawnings Avatar speaks of where tainted by Clan pestilen's plagues. I believe there was a story oflizardmen destroying as pool that got tainted but if it was isolated that won't be happening.

Also there is a story about a young (newer spawning) slaan diying while struggling not to get possesed by an injured greater deamon. Imagine what would happen if a deamon possesed one of them frogs.

Cool.

Might just sugest to him that the Slaan actually does become possessed, and it spiritually corrupts those around it. Also, since the salamanders and larger beasts are captured, if they are in the Chaos wastes or a tainted area, these beasts will work well if he uses the models we have already noted.

That looks like the best way to do it Avatar.

Maybe the Slaan had only just been spawned when the Temple-City was corrupted (and he got possessed when his defences werent fully developed?).

Using his knowledge of the winds of magic, the Slann had no choice but to draw a portion of the taint into his own body, where his innate power could surpress it and stabilise to corruption present in the temple city.

HoverBoy wrote: Imagine what would happen if a deamon possesed one of them frogs.

Great TOAD dragon
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer/WARHAMMER_CHAOS/TAMURKHAN-ON-TOAD-DRAGON.html

The corrupted spawnings were indeed Clan Pestilens. Someone would have to show a page where Chaos polluted some pools, as I don't recall that ever happening.

Liz are basically the most anti-chaos race in the game. Even more than those fruity High Elves, whose helmets are obviously Chaos-inspired.

You can kind of fluff anything, but I certainly can't see how they would ever work with regular Liz in any way/shape/form. They'd die first. Lizardmen aren't pragmatic, they're zealots. Their gods said kill all chaos. They'd suicide fighting them before they'd let them live.

Having some mutated Clan Pestilens survive would make sense. Which would give you your mutated-LOOKING Liz. If they could prove they were still whole Liz, I think they might be allowed to survive, and it would be a neat shock force with a special hatred of Skaven--and it's not especially Chaos, it's simply diseases which caused it, so not such a stigma to other Lizardmen. Besides, Choas Liz would have some kind of other Chaos-y abilities you'd think, as that's the whole point.

But you could make big meanie Chaos Liz I guess. Like making Chaos Dwarfs and using regular Dwarf rules (though Forge World lumped those in to WoC). Though fluff-wise I don't think it makes a ton of sense.

Someone would have to show a page where Chaos polluted some pools, as I don't recall that ever happening.

It didn't, but that isn't to say that a warpstone meteor couldn't land near some long-forgotten spawning pools and tamper with them.

That's the beauty of Chaos, there's no precedent that says XYZ can't happen.

The fact that Lizardmen are anti-Chaos doesn't stop there being a plaque discovered that tells of a tainted spawning, but warns that they're not to be killed.

DukeRustfield wrote:
Liz are basically the most anti-chaos race in the game. Even more than those fruity High Elves, whose helmets are obviously Chaos-inspired.

You can kind of fluff anything, but I certainly can't see how they would ever work with regular Liz in any way/shape/form. They'd die first. Lizardmen aren't pragmatic, they're zealots. Their gods said kill all chaos. They'd suicide fighting them before they'd let them live.

Having some mutated Clan Pestilens survive would make sense. Which would give you your mutated-LOOKING Liz. If they could prove they were still whole Liz, I think they might be allowed to survive, and it would be a neat shock force with a special hatred of Skaven--and it's not especially Chaos, it's simply diseases which caused it, so not such a stigma to other Lizardmen. Besides, Choas Liz would have some kind of other Chaos-y abilities you'd think, as that's the whole point.

Your points are all what inspired this thread. He doesnt want jacked up fluff bunnies getting their panties in a twist when he plays his army at Warhammer World, his local club. Hence, the search for justification.

Avatar 720 wrote:

Someone would have to show a page where Chaos polluted some pools, as I don't recall that ever happening.

It didn't, but that isn't to say that a warpstone meteor couldn't land near some long-forgotten spawning pools and tamper with them.

That's the beauty of Chaos, there's no precedent that says XYZ can't happen.

The fact that Lizardmen are anti-Chaos doesn't stop there being a plaque discovered that tells of a tainted spawning, but warns that they're not to be killed.

Exactly, chaos can work subtley over generations to corrupt these spawnings from the isolated city. Especially, if the Slaan is possessed/corrupted and turns a blind eye or justifies it to his faithful... its how religious organisations work, the faithful never question the preacher.

This fluff could also be represented throughout the list... no old lizards, just the newer spawning who have never known better. Perhaps the corrupted Slaan had them killed or sent them on a suicide mission so that they would not question his decisions...

The fact that Lizardmen are anti-Chaos doesn't stop there being a plaque discovered that tells of a tainted spawning, but warns that they're not to be killed.

Again, you can fluff anything. Like fluff that Orcs are really misunderstood hippies. It just makes little sense.

However much Dark Elves hate High Elves, it's not as much a Liz hate Choas. So sure, there's a plaque that says "Nevermind all that other stuff, Choas rox0rz and you should be chilling with the Beastmen and teach them how to take baths."

Yes, you can fluff that and no one in the world can stop you. Does it make sense in the WHFB canon? I'm sure your mileage may vary. Maybe there's some Tomb Kings that love Vampires and Vegetarian Ogres who hang out with Wood Elves. But I think the further you go from the core fluffery, the harder you're going to have to work.

If it was done over generations they woulda murderized themselves as soon as a chaos freckle showed up.

Slaan aren't power hungry. They're pretty much aliens. They make them out to be unbelievably self-sacrificing and/or contemplative, aka Unfathomable Presence. There's not one Lizardman in the whole book who really has any personality in terms of self. They are Cold-Blooded, single-minded. Sitting around for centuries at a time unmoving, guarding some statuary or other. They made them like ants in a hive, gladly sacrificing themselves for the benefit of the Greater Good.

But if you're going to rewrite the whole canon, you can make Greedy Disco Lizardmen who stay out after dark breaking curfew.

Duke's right.

I believe it was the previous book IIRC that mentioned some Saurus that had been somehow abandoned/left & they went feral without the Slann's presence. So you could go for a Cathay or Southlands army without a Slann to try to stay within cannon.

Otherwise the fluff tells us Slann simply die- they can't be corrupted by chaos. Even the youngest Slann are older than humans IIRC, theres less than 50, & they are all tapped into the geomantric web sharing thoughts so theres little to zero chance one could be corrupted in cannon

Hmm... ok. But the isolated city still works, the Lizardmen/Slaan dont have to be physically corrupted, it could just be an aesthetic.

I like the idea of physically mutated models, simply because if done right it could look incredibly cool on the tabletop.

But the fluff? I don't really know, I simply can't see any Lizardmen falling to Chaos and being allowed to survive. Even if they were in an isolated city, the Lizardmen/Slann know EVERYTHING about Lustria. They control it in the truest sense of the word, hence why the only colonies of other races have either been on the fringes and coastlines, or buried deep underground and eventually driven out (i.e. the Skaven.) If there were some kind of mutation or corruption in one of the cities, the regular LM would easily find out and eradicate them, likely with even greater prejudice than they would another race. After all, the greatest insult is a showing of weakness of one's self, and being the most steadfast anti-Chaos group in the entire background, any potential boils would be lanced immediately and without hesitation.

The best way that I could see you pulling off the mutated/corrupted look is either survivors of Clan Pestilens, as suggested before, OR you could try and do the following. Since the Slann normally keep their charges on the path, and without them they slowly become feral and such, do one of the Southlands/Kingdom of Ind/Hinterlands of Khuresh remnants. Remember, the LM once had temple-cities across the entire Warhammer globe. There is nothing which states that once the main LM faction in Lustria lost contact with said cities that the populations/spawning pools died completely and became inert. If you're honestly dead-set on doing a Chaos-themed LM, then avoid taking a Slann (for the reasons said above) and if anyone asks say "They're from the non-Lustria cities, huge warpstone meteor, corruption in the spawning pools, etc, etc." And if you really want to run a Slann for game purposes, run it as some Greater Daemon counts-as - something that saw the moment of potential weakness in these LM and took that opportunity to guide them towards summoning it or something, and now it leads them as much as the Slann normally do.

DiscoVader wrote:I like the idea of physically mutated models, simply because if done right it could look incredibly cool on the tabletop.

But the fluff? I don't really know, I simply can't see any Lizardmen falling to Chaos and being allowed to survive. Even if they were in an isolated city, the Lizardmen/Slann know EVERYTHING about Lustria. They control it in the truest sense of the word, hence why the only colonies of other races have either been on the fringes and coastlines, or buried deep underground and eventually driven out (i.e. the Skaven.) If there were some kind of mutation or corruption in one of the cities, the regular LM would easily find out and eradicate them, likely with even greater prejudice than they would another race. After all, the greatest insult is a showing of weakness of one's self, and being the most steadfast anti-Chaos group in the entire background, any potential boils would be lanced immediately and without hesitation.

The best way that I could see you pulling off the mutated/corrupted look is either survivors of Clan Pestilens, as suggested before, OR you could try and do the following. Since the Slann normally keep their charges on the path, and without them they slowly become feral and such, do one of the Southlands/Kingdom of Ind/Hinterlands of Khuresh remnants. Remember, the LM once had temple-cities across the entire Warhammer globe. There is nothing which states that once the main LM faction in Lustria lost contact with said cities that the populations/spawning pools died completely and became inert. If you're honestly dead-set on doing a Chaos-themed LM, then avoid taking a Slann (for the reasons said above) and if anyone asks say "They're from the non-Lustria cities, huge warpstone meteor, corruption in the spawning pools, etc, etc." And if you really want to run a Slann for game purposes, run it as some Greater Daemon counts-as - something that saw the moment of potential weakness in these LM and took that opportunity to guide them towards summoning it or something, and now it leads them as much as the Slann normally do.

Yes, this is what I meant by isolated... they are not from Lustria... heck, they could be from Albion with the new SoM expansion, anything is possible.

Or perhaps what you could do is instead of making them corrupted per-se, like still-living but Chaos-worshiping, instead make it so that they're the reanimated corpses of Lizardmen warriors and beasts, possessed by demons to make a mockery of their society. Same general idea, same ability to modify the models, but more in-line with the fluff. Kind of a huge middle finger from the Chaos gods, you know?

A slaan's body would make a great vessel for a lord of change, dead or alive.

I'm pretty sure somewhere in the Lizardmen fluff it actually says that they are genetically immune to corruption from Chaos or something along those lines. But I don't remember it that clearly so who knows?

I don't have my Army Book in front of me atm, so I can't really say - I don't remember it, but it might be in there.

At the least, they're highly resistant to corruption. But thankfully, unlike in the 40K Grey Knights codex where it explicitly states that they have never once fallen to Chaos ever over something like 5000 years, there's no such thing in the Lizardmen book as far as I'm aware. From what I can remember, the biggest reason that they've never really swayed to Chaos has been the Slann that continue to rule over them - without the Slann to guide them, it's stated that they fall back on their feral instincts, which means that they're no better than the other races.

There was also the one story about the Slann that was becoming confused and rambling, and they found that the reason why was a mortally wounded demon on one of their temples of power. When the Slann would face the temple where the demon was, his thoughts and orders would become rambling and incoherent, because it was corrupting his sense of the Geomantic web and whatnot. Not really true corruption, but it does show that they're at least somewhat exposed to the powers of Chaos.

BTW, I didn't mean to be jerky and pee on your idea. Do what you think is fun. But you asked what you thought of fluffery. There's a huge mythology of the game and it does allow a lot of latitude. And some of the more interesting things can go against type. But you also like to respect the original flavor while putting your own spin.

DukeRustfield wrote:BTW, I didn't mean to be jerky and pee on your idea. Do what you think is fun. But you asked what you thought of fluffery. There's a huge mythology of the game and it does allow a lot of latitude. And some of the more interesting things can go against type. But you also like to respect the original flavor while putting your own spin.

No need to apologise.

It is exactly your response that we are attempting to manage and work around when he models and games with these...

As the friend in question i should probably show my face. The idea i had was that a slaan and his army were facing a huge daemon assault and that the slaan attempted to cast the deliverance of itsa. In order to cast it he had to divert all his energy to the spell leaving him weak. Althought the daemon army was destroyed, one of the stronger daemons managed to penetrate the slaan's defences and distract it long enough for it to make a mistake on one of the final incantations. The entire army was transported to the realm of chaos where it was trapped for 616 years. Eventually they fought their way out but had become corrupted in the process.

The question then remains, are they aware of their mutation? Do they embrace it or despise themselves? Where do they see themselves in the good/evil balance and where do others see them?

The one lizardman who spent "time" in realm of chaos was Oxyotl. He spent what turned out to be millennia there. Basically from the first fight of the Daemons to now. Eventually he came out and was still a badass lizardman and now he's a Special Character.

And HE's was just a Chameleon Skink...that kind of shows you how uncorruptable Lizardmen are. Which I think is what we're trying to get across. Looking at the timeline he was basically in there for.....er, about 8000 years. Or nearly the entire WHFB existence. And a Chameleon is a 12pt model with no magic abilities at all and a Slann is a minimum 275pt Lord with ward saves and access to a tremendous amount of magic.

A Slann and his guard were transported to RoC too, in a means much like you said, but they were killed by daemons instantly. It's all in the Liz book. Maybe the BRB too.

I would do what I want to do and ignore anyone who didn't like it. They're my toy soldiers and it's potentially a very cool source of conversions.

The attiude of "it's not canon!" baffles me utterly.

DukeRustfield wrote:The one lizardman who spent "time" in realm of chaos was Oxyotl. He spent what turned out to be millennia there. Basically from the first fight of the Daemons to now. Eventually he came out and was still a badass lizardman and now he's a Special Character.

And HE's was just a Chameleon Skink...that kind of shows you how uncorruptable Lizardmen are. Which I think is what we're trying to get across. Looking at the timeline he was basically in there for.....er, about 8000 years. Or nearly the entire WHFB existence. And a Chameleon is a 12pt model with no magic abilities at all and a Slann is a minimum 275pt Lord with ward saves and access to a tremendous amount of magic.

A Slann and his guard were transported to RoC too, in a means much like you said, but they were killed by daemons instantly. It's all in the Liz book. Maybe the BRB too.

Scoop up massive saurus based Lizardmen army
Put them in the RoC for 8000 years
??????
Whole army of 150point models?