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May I have a group of Troops in which only one member of my unit is carrying a defensive grenade. Does the whole unit which Assaults it suffer the loss of one attack. Let's say my unit wins. Then my unit is assaulted again on a following turn. Do I get to "reuse" the model with the grenade or am I out?

Subquestion: offensive grenades. If my unit only has one model with an offensive anti-tank grenade. Does that mean only one shot ever?

Thanks
G

Check the FAQs.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat410004&categoryId=1000018§ion=&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&start=2




And grenades are not "used up" unless they are specified as One Shot or the like.

The only GW FAQ ruling that even comes close to answering this question is the Grey Knights FAQ answering basically the same question but with rad/psychotroke grenades.

However, that answer could just be because its the only way those grenades can possibly be used given that only ICs can take them.

Now, defensive grenades do use the same basic verbiage as rad/pyschotroke grenades when it comes to telling you when/how you get to use them, but typically when a rule refers to 'a unit' getting to do something then the whole unit needs to have the rule or none of them get to do it.

For example I think a vast majority of people would agree that if a unit has the ability to Deep Strike but is joined by an IC that cannot, then the unit is no longer allowed to Deep Strike.

So this really is a tough question. The precedent set by the GK FAQ seems to suggest you only need a single model in the unit with defensive grenades to benefit from it, but again this runs counter-intuitive to the general way special rules have been played/ruled on in the past.


In short, I don't think there is a clear-cut answer to this question that everyone would agree on.

Main issue I see on the board for greandes is for assualt grenades and IG. If you have a infantry blob and 1 unit has krak and one doesn't, then the ones with can use them in assault. The models need to clearly delineated though as if the ones with grenades are all hiding at the back and don't get into combat then no grenade bonus. I generally would look at majority rule here - but I agree the GK precedent is that only 1 grenade user needs to be in combat to benefit.

Defensive grenades, then the GK codex is the only real precedent we have ...

Yak - they dont have the same basic wording: Rad and Psychostroke work on the entire unit assaulting, defensive grenades only work on the *models* assaulting

ruminator wrote:Main issue I see on the board for greandes is for assualt grenades and IG. If you have a infantry blob and 1 unit has krak and one doesn't, then the ones with can use them in assault. The models need to clearly delineated though as if the ones with grenades are all hiding at the back and don't get into combat then no grenade bonus. I generally would look at majority rule here - but I agree the GK precedent is that only 1 grenade user needs to be in combat to benefit.

Defensive grenades, then the GK codex is the only real precedent we have ...

The rules for assault grenades are much more clear...'models equipped with' them get their benefit.

This is quite different from defensive grenades which only reference the 'unit' that has them.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yak - they dont have the same basic wording: Rad and Psychostroke work on the entire unit assaulting, defensive grenades only work on the *models* assaulting

That is a good point. It certainly is far from a clear situation, but at least there is a slight difference to hang a different ruling on.

If one member of the unit has defensive grenades, I would go with the fact that models are attacking a unit equipped with defensive grenades.

Which is a totally different situation to an IC with defensive grenades attached to a unit without grenades.

There is a conversation here and a poll here in regard to this very topic.

And my conclusion thereof:

puma713 wrote:If you are assaulting a Tactical Squad with 2 meltaguns in it, aren't you assaulting a squad "equipped with meltaguns"? To say no is blatantly false. Just because the entire squad isn't equipped with meltaguns doesn't mean you didn't assault a squad equipped with meltaguns. Now, replace 'meltaguns' with 'defensive grenades'.

For the thousandth time, especially in my thread, this isn't about everyone being equipped with defensive grenades, it's about, is one person being equipped with defensive grenades enough to affect the entire assaulting unit.

Conversations in the other thread and this poll make it clear that most people were thinking like I was, in that you've assaulted a 'unit equipped with defensive grenades' and so, you follow the rules for defensive grenades.

OK. So my assessment is the following:

Defensive Grenades: If one model in a unit is equipped with defensive grenades (be it a single troop model OR an independent character that has joined the unit), then the defending unit as a whole receives the benefit of subtracting the Assault Bonus Attack of the offensive player.

Offensive Grenades: Any model in a unit that is equipped with these grenades may use them in an assault versus a vehicle. However, the model(s) so equipped must be eligible to assault the vehicle. That is, the qualifiyng model must end its assault movement either in base to base contact or within 2" of a model in the unit that is in base to base contact with the vehicle. You get the number of attacks as the number of properly equipped models that are eligible for assault.

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but it seems like this could significantly affect lists especially with regards to anti-tank capabilities and point cost to benefit ratios.

Thanks again,
DrG

what codex allows a single model to buy defensive grenades? pretty sure we had this discution before and there weren't any codexs that allow it. As for independant characters i would say the whole unit has to have them as it says units with defensive grenades.

All codecies that I own (IG, Chaos, Space Marines, Tau and Orks) seem to indicate that it is not compulsory for all models to purchase them. Can you indicate a page number in one of those that I own? I think that my interpretation may be a widely held belief.

Thanks
DrG

Well, if the "every model in the unit must have them" interpretation is correct, you don't *have* to buy one for every model...the unit simply won't get the effect unless you do.

Buying them on a model-by-model basis is simply the easiest way for the designers to work out the cost of that type of upgrade for variable-size squads.

tau cant. says +1 for each model in the unit. You'll notice the wording for emp is different and you can take them individually

That makes good sense. I guess I overlooked the syntax because that was the codex I was looking at last night. I suspect it's similar throughout W40k codicies. Horray for the Orks!!!!

Thankyou VoxDei.
DrG

yakface wrote:
The only GW FAQ ruling that even comes close to answering this question is the Grey Knights FAQ answering basically the same question but with rad/psychotroke grenades.

However, that answer could just be because its the only way those grenades can possibly be used given that only ICs can take them.

Now, defensive grenades do use the same basic verbiage as rad/pyschotroke grenades when it comes to telling you when/how you get to use them, but typically when a rule refers to 'a unit' getting to do something then the whole unit needs to have the rule or none of them get to do it.

For example I think a vast majority of people would agree that if a unit has the ability to Deep Strike but is joined by an IC that cannot, then the unit is no longer allowed to Deep Strike.

So this really is a tough question. The precedent set by the GK FAQ seems to suggest you only need a single model in the unit with defensive grenades to benefit from it, but again this runs counter-intuitive to the general way special rules have been played/ruled on in the past.


In short, I don't think there is a clear-cut answer to this question that everyone would agree on.

Grenades are Wargear. USRs are USRs. Two different things. Units do not confer USRs to adjoined ICs but Wargear has been ruled differently.

Based on the fluff (and I realize this isn't necessarily RAI) it would seem that:

In the case of defensive grenades, only one model need have it. Generally speaking, grenades have an area wide explosion, and do not only benefit the thrower. If one flashbang goes off, it will blind the assaulters almost as equally as if 10 go off.

In terms of offensive/assault grenades, there is a fine line difference in use. To attack a tank, each model must have a grenade to attempt to use; they cannot share grenades!(See BRB pg.63) However, if one model throws a grenade at a unit in cover, the entire assaulting unit should benefit; the defenders must stay down, regardless of how many grenades were thrown.

Why did I start this stupid thread. I'm more confused than ever. OK Let's take Tau as a prototype:

RAW from the Tau Codex on page 36:
"The team may carry photon grenades at an additional cost of +1 per model and EMP grenades at an additional cost of +3 per model."

As I read it, this means the team (unit) may be equipped with photon grenades and/or EMP grenades. To do so you must equip the WHOLE unit at a varying point cost depending on the number of models. EXAMPLE: For a 6 model unit, it would cost 6 points to equip with photon grenades, and 18 to equip with EMP grenades. To do both, it would cost 24 points.

You may not spend less points to equip a single model with photon (or EMP) grenades to gain the effects of them respectively. The whole unit must be so equipped.

I suspect the RAW for other races are similar.

OK as Stan Lee would say "'Nuff said."

DrG

Defensive Grenades: If one model in a unit is equipped with defensive grenades (be it a single troop model OR an independent character that has joined the unit), then the defending unit as a whole receives the benefit of subtracting the Assault Bonus Attack of the offensive player.

I sort of have a problem with this interpretation mainly due to the wording of the Phantasm Grenade Launcher wargear that some Dark Eldar ICs can take. It specifically states that the model equipped with a Phantasm Grenade Launcher is equipped with both offensive and defensive grenades and confers this benefit to any unit he has joined. If defensive grenades worked the way you say they do, then why bother stating the Phantasm Grenade Launcher like that?

Because the IC is a separate unit in CC, and so an IC's defensive grenades will only affect models attacking the IC's unit, ie. the IC alone.


Which is a totally different situation from having only one model out of a 10 model unit equipped with defensive grenades.

kmdl1066 wrote:Because the IC is a separate unit in CC, and so an IC's defensive grenades will only affect models attacking the IC's unit, ie. the IC alone.
Which is a totally different situation from having only one model out of a 10 model unit equipped with defensive grenades.

The IC is not a separate unit until the attacks are actually made.

When assaults are launched the IC is a part of the unit.

I can accept that.

The Phantasm Grenade Launcher wording would still be required for offensive grenades though, as that is "models equipped with."