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So play a few games using warrior/trueborn venom spam with scourges....went okay but no CC ability....so I traded out the scourges and night shields on the venom for big beastmaster units and Haemos with WWP, CC was there but when beastmaster was tied up with ironclad, furiso, or soul grinder...they couldn't do anything. So still debating fast attack choice...as to reavers or scourges. So I going to play test this weekend using this list....any comments helpful. The 3 regular guys that I face in tournaments that are good are fielding, Thunderwolves w/razorspam, IG Mech, and SoB...these are the guys I am worried about. So here is the list

HQ
Vect.....going first in AB is godlike

Elite
3x 4 Trueborn w/ Blasters +Venom w/ 2 cannons

Troops
6x 4 Wyches /w Haywire and Hekatrix w/ Agonizer +Venom w/2 cannons

Fast Attack
3x 5 Scourges w/ Haywire Blasters

Heavy
3x Ravagers w/ DL and FF

Going to be my first time in Ard Boyz, so always second guessing myself....normally finish 1st or 2nd in LGS but that is a different army and well.....I want to prove its not the army and its actually me. Really Appreciate any input.

I don't really know much dark eldar, but I feel like you might be a bit wyche heavy. I'd probably aim for 6 troops, with 0-2 units being wyches, and the rest being warriors with blasters in raiders. 5 man wyches don't do much except die anyway. might as well your troops a blaster so they can possibly hurt vehicles and stuff.

And i think the beastmaster units are actually a good idea, just make sure they don't get in combat with walkers by sending your melta units at them (granted this may be easier said then done).

I'm also not sure vect is really worth spending 240 on just to steal the I on a 4 up. I mean, that is awesome, but half the time you will go first anyway, and if an enemy knows you have vect (and, they will when they look at your list), then they will assume that you get to do first and deploy accordingly. Honestly i'd probably take the way cheaper baron and just hope you roll decent to get the first turn in the first place, but that's just me.

The heavy and elite choices seem fine to me.

Vect doesn't really help you go first though - he helps you go second, setup like you'r going first, and then have a 50/50 that the gamble will work.
Baron Sathypants helps you go first.

Wyches in Venoms are competing with their ride on targets. I actually think you'd benefit (especially in Ard Boyz) by slipping them into Raiders;

1. It will help you have enough anti-mech to scare even IG
2. It will mean Vect isn't having to ride with Trueborn.
3. It will help you manage the first turn rotate trick to better gain allowing better chances of alpha assault.

The presence of the Scourges is...meh. I'd rather feed those points into more Wyches and setting up Baron Sathy with some Beasts than with Scourges. They're not terrible - they're just not that great either.

I'd probably drop Vect and the Scourges and refocus points into Baron Sathy, some Haemys, and Wych upgrades to Raiders and more Wyches.

My thoughts,
Thor.

Thor665 wrote:
3. It will help you manage the first turn rotate trick to better gain allowing better chances of alpha assault.

What exactly is this?

Might be a little hard to explain so let's try an example with really badly done ASCAII

======= <--deployment line

RRR <--Raider

R
R
R <--- another Raider


So we deploy, and we have two Raiders set up.

===========
RRR.....R
...........R
...........R

We go to move them, as part of your move you're allowed to rotate for free - now, personally when I do it I measure from the side of the Raider, move it, and then rotate (this showcases that it's not a cheat move in my mind), but for the sake of the example (and because this seems to be the way everyone else plays it) let's go ahead and do our free rotate first, so we end up with;

R==========
R.........R
R.........R
...........R

Boom, suddenly our Raider's middle point is at the line of deployment and we've 'gained' (or 'cheated' depending on your view) an odd extra two inches of movement. This move is especially viable for DE because our craft are silly skinny and silly long, so it exacerbates this move. Nilla Marines can do it too, but with their big box vehicles no one can tell the difference.

Does that make sense?

And to clarify - the Raider benefits from the rotate trick a lot more than a Venom does - hence the Raider is strategically more viable in benefitting from the trick, and the trick's two best uses for DE (in my somewhat humble opinion) are to help get Blasters in range turn 1, and to allow Wyches to assault on turn 1.

That is cheating, I think. You cannot use a free pivot to get extra movement. You measure from the hull out and rotate in between but must end no further away from the starting point than your intended move.

Yes you can you noob, god people like you are the reason GW FaQs are bullrubble

Be a little more hostile. In my shop, that is cheating.

You can pivot at any time in the movement phase... so following how Thor does it, he measures from the hull, moves sideways, then at the end pivots, perfectly legal.

As he said, marines can do this... just whip out your rhinos, follow the example... BAM!... you just gained the same advantage following the rules.

Of course if you can show some rules as to why this move isn't legal then I'd label it cheating.. otherwise..

Haters gonna hate :-p

em_en_oh_pee wrote:That is cheating, I think. You cannot use a free pivot to get extra movement. You measure from the hull out and rotate in between but must end no further away from the starting point than your intended move.

It's competely legal. You're allowed to pivot before moving, and you pivot from the center. Raiders benefit from this the most due to their long profile.

You don't have to like it, but don't call it cheating when it clearly isn't.

A pity I am on my phone, as I don't have my resources on me. I swear it was recently addressed in a FAQ or something. You can't use a pivot to gain free movement. You end all of yu movement at the end of you move within the max distance including pivots along the way. Again, I don't have my stuff, but I swear its in the rules.

I eagerly await your "resources".

Such sarcasm. Sorry I don't have my rulebook on me 24/7. Would it have killed you to crack open one and contributed to the thread a bit?

Its all gravy my good sir, check pg 57 of the BRB

"Vehicles can turn any number of times as they move."

On pg 55 under "Vehicles and measuring ranges"...

"As vehicle models normally do not have a base,
the normal rule of measuring ranges to/from a
model’s base cannot be used. Therefore, for all
vehicles (including skimmers that do have a base),
measure ranges to/from their hull."


And pg 57, just after what you quoted above...

"This means that a vehicle may combine forward and
reverse movement in the same turn providing it
does not exceed its maximum move."


So by moving the max distance from the side hull and then pivoting without backing up so that the front of the hull is no further then where the side hull used be would be considered cheating as you are gaining the couple of inches in your movement.

Pivoting is neither forward, or reverse movement :-)

Here is another way to think about this.


I measure my moves from the Center of a Vehicle. (as long as you measure from the same point on the tank at the start and end of the move it is legal)

the Center of the Vehicle can move 12" and end that move facing in any direction. (I move 12" and then get a pivot that does not count as movement)

the only reason you are "gaining" movement is because by placing the raider sideways you are placing the Center of the Vehicle closer to the deployment line.

By RAW, it is legal. Certain clubs, Game Stores, and Tournaments feel it is unfair, and decide on "house rules" that deny this maneuver.


Think on this:
What if the raider did not move at all, but just rotated such that the nose went over the deployment line? The raider is now 2" closer to the enemy. Has it moved? Would you tell your opponent to move the raider 2" backwards so it was still behind the deployment line?

The answer: NO. the rules CLEARLY state that just rotating is not movement. Therefore, after the rotation, the raider still has all 12" of its (cruising speed) movement left.



Any play CAN do this, but the DE Raiders are the only ones who can take advantage of it.

There are several other Long/Skinny Tanks (Ork BW comes to mind) BUT
As raiders are 10/10/10 they are not exposing any side/rear armor.

Do tournaments really house rule against this? Jesus christ, I thought we had it bad in Australia with our overbearing comp scores, but that's ridiculous.

No they don't, I just played in a team tourney this past Friday, 3 DE players there, all using the tactic.

Well i don't know if I would call it a tactic...its more like twisting rules to your advatage.

But hey if thats what you have to do to win then good on you...must not have very good "tactics" then..

@OP - sorry, didn't expect that to derail your thread this bad, I'm going to give a couple shots on the way out the door, but I'm running for the hills now. My bad.

em_en_oh_pee wrote:Be a little more hostile. In my shop, that is cheating.

In your shop I wouldn't do it then. But it's not against any regular rules - there are many threads in YMDC expounding on this debate and the worst that examination of the rules has been able to say is it's a gray area depending on how you read the rules. GW has made no clarifications that I have ever been made aware of and I, and others, have used the move at multiple tournaments including GTs and other big gatherings.

balsak_da_mighty wrote:Well i don't know if I would call it a tactic...its more like twisting rules to your advatage.

But hey if thats what you have to do to win then good on you...must not have very good "tactics" then..

If it's not a tactic is it a "tactic" to space out your units 2" apart to make pie plates less dangerous? Just because it's rule based doesn't mean it's not a good tactic.

I do find I need this "tactic" to help me vs. IG Leafblower lists. I don't need it vs. other lists. Probably the IG lists use less tactics than me, because if no one played them I wouldn't need this tactic

It's no more a 'tactic' than disembarking your models 2.99" away from an access point to get a bigger move/assault range, especially on models with bigger bases.
It's no more a 'tactic' than checkerboarding (or whatever people want to call it) infantry units together to generate their own cover save.
It's no more a 'tactic' than taking complex units to avoid casualties.
It's no more a 'tactic' than placing objectives on the 3rd level of a ruin against an all bike list.
It's no more a 'tactic' than pulling casualties in a manner that puts your opponent out of assault range, or choosing to fail a morale check to do the same thing.
It's no more a 'tactic' than hiding your IC in the middle of his unit so he can't be singled out by a model with a powerfist.
It's no more a 'tactic' than every other move competitive players to do gain an advantage. Don't believe me? Check out DashofPeppers tank shock guide against Orks. Check out Steleks deep strike defence of his Tau vs Deamons, or his deployment guide of Blood Angels vs Imperial Guard.

It's all about making smart decisions based around the frameworks (ie, rules) given to you. If any of your are Starcraft players, think about Stop Lurkers or Mutalisk stacking and how they take advantage of the game rules to give you an edge. But yeah of course, playing by the rules in a way that gives you an advantage is bad and makes you a terrible, terrible player.

Well I tried the list out and it worked great....lost 1 venom, and a couple of wyches but not the whole squad. Vect proved himself by losing the roll to go first. I deployed carefully but with venoms being small was able to get ravagers and scourges into cover with no problem. I stole init, and laid waste to opponents 3 vindis first off, then charged into his rhino/razorback castle, with the wyches with haywire nades and trueborn blasters....2 really good moves where killing his runepriest with 5 grey hunters in a razorback by glancing it to death in the assualt phase when it was in the middle of a castle, then killed 10 grey hunters by surrounding the rhino with venoms and had 2 rounds of shooting on it with scourges to wreck it. I forgot to list the hydra gaunts on the wyches that really helped with making up for the small squad size.

As to the argument with raiders movement....is it a tactic...yes....is it legal yes....is it something I would do....no. Hence why I currently don't use Raiders. A lot of people up at the store build their lists to compete against me, since I always bring solid hard list. At the same time, a lot of people at the store hate playing me at local events because they know I am good at tactics and using the landscape to my advantage. I try and be as nice as I can, I help others with list, pointing out weaknesses and such. I don't want to be TFG, which I think if I started using those tactics I would instantly become. Right now, I am feared but respected in events locally. I rather keep it that way.