Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?

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**Unit1126PLL**

I'd just bring 3 naked Infantry Squads, instead of 30 conscripts, to screen. Their LD is better anyways, and once the screen becomes less important (after the DSers/infiltrators/whomever) have dropped, they can spread out and do more things on the table.

**daedalus**

Naix wrote:
What does everyone intend to do to supplement their screens for the arty / heavy weapons now that your one conscript squad that could take insane bravery doesn't really make sense anymore.

I'm wondering whether 3 Infantry squads with flamers in front of the other infantry squads and juicy stuff is sufficient.

It might just be that we need to evaporate any attackers after the first wave with a punisher / vulture.

I bring a minimum of 40 infantry with plasmaguns, plasma pistols, and power swords, walking up to 60 in larger games. Their role is to do whatever they need to do. If I need a screen, then they stand there and hold the line. If I don't then they move forward, capture objectives, and attack when opportunity arises while the big guns and stormtroopers do most of the talking.

I don't normally play in games smaller than 1500, so I have points to burn, but that's 224 points (well, pre-CA it was). It's not going to neutralize most alpha strikes before they happen, but it does keep them off of me for a round. I don't have a nid heavy meta, but that's been all the time I've needed against any other alpha I've come across.

**Requizen**

Slightly off topic, but the title of this thread is really amusing to me. Even with the point changes, "More Competitive" is a bit of an understatement.

I haven't punched in the numbers yet but I'm wondering how my mainly Scions force will look with the changes. I didn't load up on purely Melta and Plasma, but it looks like Volley Guns went up as well.

**vipoid**

Having to pay for the Command Rod seems plain moronic. You're already giving up your pistol for the ability to issue 2 Orders, do you really need to pay more?

**Requizen**

vipoid wrote:
Having to pay for the Command Rod seems plain moronic. You're already giving up your pistol for the ability to issue 2 Orders, do you really need to pay more?

I somewhat agree, but 2 orders is actually just amazing. Drop in a single dude with two Plasma Commands and give them both rerolls while only risking one HQ. I honestly don't even mind the price.

**vipoid**

Requizen wrote:
vipoid wrote:
Having to pay for the Command Rod seems plain moronic. You're already giving up your pistol for the ability to issue 2 Orders, do you really need to pay more?

I somewhat agree, but 2 orders is actually just amazing. Drop in a single dude with two Plasma Commands and give them both rerolls while only risking one HQ. I honestly don't even mind the price.

I get that 2 orders is good, but Company Commanders get 2 Orders as standard and are 10pts cheaper. And have a 5++. And can take a pistol.

If they want to drop Tempestor Primes down to 35pts and make the Command Rod 5pts, fine. But tacking an extra 5pts onto their cost just seems unnecessary.

**WatcherZero**

They seem to be pushing us into considering alternatives to Scions Through the BS3 weapon point increases. I love hellblasters performance on the table so might consider them for the heavy infantry role in larger games where I have the points to flesh out with some supporting charachters.

**vipoid**

WatcherZero wrote:
They seem to be pushing us into considering alternatives to Scions Through the BS3 weapon point increases.

Yeah, perhaps we should look at Veterans instead.

Oh, wait, they got hit as well. Because why just nerf one unit when you can also nerf an already bad unit as well?

**daedalus**

Vets are in an uncomfortable position because there's just nothing for them to do. They seem like they want to be mobile, but they don't really have the staying power to be outside of a chimera, which is where they have to be if you want to use all their good stuff. You could put them in a Valkyrie, but if you were going to do that, you'd just take command squads to get more guns. If they had access to their old 5th ed special rules, you could load them up with carapace armor and maybe do something a bit more dynamic, but we already have that and it's called "scions".

So I've got my one squad that I have painted up in a slightly less bright Mordian scheme that will sit on a shelf because there's no way I'm bringing three meltaguns and a missile launcher at this point. Maybe I'll turn the meltas into a command squad and use them with one of the Vendettas I barely touch anymore.

**Unit1126PLL**

I'd actually play the gak out of Veterans if they had carapace. I don't want to pay 10ppm for carapace+deep strike+hellgun in my heavy infantry regiment, but I'd happily pay 7 or 8 points for carapace + lasgun.

**vipoid**

daedalus wrote:
Vets are in an uncomfortable position because there's just nothing for them to do. They seem like they want to be mobile, but they don't really have the staying power to be outside of a chimera, which is where they have to be if you want to use all their good stuff. You could put them in a Valkyrie, but if you were going to do that, you'd just take command squads to get more guns. If they had access to their old 5th ed special rules, you could load them up with carapace armor and maybe do something a bit more dynamic, but we already have that and it's called "scions".

I agree, though I think they might have had a better shot if they weren't paying the same price for plasma/melta as Scions - which are good not because of their BS but because of their pinpoint DS ability.

Another aspect regarding Veterans is that (to me at least) they often feel wasteful. As in, they can take 3 Special Weapons plus a Heavy Flamer plus a Heavy Weapon. If you use all those slots, they get very expensive very quickly (relative to their survivability), but if you don't it just feels like a waste.

Also, I think making them Elites hurt them a lot.

**KestrelM1**

Veterans are good passengers for the super-heavies with firing decks, but I think that's the only remaining niche they fill. And even there they'll be outshone by Command Squads unless you run out of "allowance" for them.

Veterans desperately need the Chimera to regain its firing ports to remain relevant.

**Polonius**

I think they're trying to tone down scion spam without toning down Scions. the Prime was ridiculously good, and what's essentially a five point increase doesn't really change that.

The CC isn't an apples to apples comparison, because the value of orders (essentially the "aura" for IG) is much higher with scions than with regimental infantry.

I think you could argue that the prime is only worth 30 points stock, and 45 with a command rod. Since his only real value is the orders, that would bring him more into line with the PC/CC split.

**vipoid**

Polonius wrote:
I think they're trying to tone down scion spam without toning down Scions. the Prime was ridiculously good, and what's essentially a five point increase doesn't really change that.

I strongly disagree.

The Prime was already of dubious necessity, and now it's looking increasingly appealing to just skip him altogether,

**Bobthehero**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
I'd actually play the gak out of Veterans if they had carapace. I don't want to pay 10ppm for carapace+deep strike+hellgun in my heavy infantry regiment, but I'd happily pay 7 or 8 points for carapace + lasgun.

I think Krieg Grenadiers are in the 8-9 pts range, if that's any interest to you.

**Unit1126PLL**

Bobthehero wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
I'd actually play the gak out of Veterans if they had carapace. I don't want to pay 10ppm for carapace+deep strike+hellgun in my heavy infantry regiment, but I'd happily pay 7 or 8 points for carapace + lasgun.

I think Krieg Grenadiers are in the 8-9 pts range, if that's any interest to you.

Yeah, sadly I want to customize my regiment. I've got some neato guys with Roman shields who I think would make excellent Mordians, 'cause they'd look badass in a shield wall, and obviously have a 4+ save, because gigantic tower shields.

Sadly, no Mordian infantry can ever have a 4+ save.

**Fueli**

Requizen wrote:
Slightly off topic, but the title of this thread is really amusing to me. Even with the point changes, "More Competitive" is a bit of an understatement.

I haven't punched in the numbers yet but I'm wondering how my mainly Scions force will look with the changes. I didn't load up on purely Melta and Plasma, but it looks like Volley Guns went up as well.

The title is what it is because this thread was started in the early days of the edition, or even before release. We didn't have much information then. But you're right, it should be changed. Or better yet, start a new one since Codex is out and CA is almost out.

**Razerous**

vipoid wrote:
Polonius wrote:
I think they're trying to tone down scion spam without toning down Scions. the Prime was ridiculously good, and what's essentially a five point increase doesn't really change that.

I strongly disagree.

The Prime was already of dubious necessity, and now it's looking increasingly appealing to just skip him altogether,

Sure..

Problem is rolling 1's with plasma gunners looses your 22pt model.. And the Prime makes your guys 6 times less likely to do that? (1/36 into 1/6?).. or from reasonable (more often than not) loosing a guy every single shooting phase to.. perhaps loosing a guy once per (long) game.

Plus other orders, for added awesome things.

Exceptionally good.

**Polonius**

Lets assume you drop two 10 man scion squads and a prime, the squads have four plasma guns. Rapid firing, that's 16 shots. Normally, you get just over 10 hits,, and between two or three guys die. Under Take Aim, that shifts to just over 12 hits, and only about half a guy die.

A 40 point character adds a 20% kicker to the squads' firepower, and only costs about 15% of the squad. It's a damn good upgrade, and will remain so even at the new points cost.

**daedalus**

It does put an exciting new twist on the ancient debate of "1x10 or 2x5"?

I was always pro 1x10, and now I think I am even more. I guess if you're wanting to lose the primes then 2x5 would make more sense.

Actually, I might have to pop the command rod arms off of my primes and magnetize them so that I can swap for plasma pistols sometimes.

**vipoid**

Polonius wrote:
Lets assume you drop two 10 man scion squads and a prime, the squads have four plasma guns. Rapid firing, that's 16 shots. Normally, you get just over 10 hits,, and between two or three guys die. Under Take Aim, that shifts to just over 14 hits, and only about half a guy die.

Your math is badly wrong.

It actually goes from 10.67 hits to 12.44 hits.

You'll lose fewer guys to overheats, sure. But if you didn't buy the Primes, you'd have more guys in the first place.

Polonius wrote:
A 40 point character adds a 40% kicker to the squads' firepower, and only costs about 15% of the squad.

Again, this is flat out wrong. The Prime is adding a mere 16% to the squad's firepower.

What's more, this is very much a best-case scenario. For most other squads (a 5-man squad with 2 plasmaguns or a Scion Command Squad with 4 Plasmaguns), the Prime is going to be a lot more than 15% of their cost. He's 25% of 2 Scion Command Squads and 29% of 2 5-man Scion Squads, yet only increases their firepower by 16%.

It seems we have very different ideas about what constitutes good value.

**Polonius**

daedalus wrote:
It does put an exciting new twist on the ancient debate of "1x10 or 2x5"?

I was always pro 1x10, and now I think I am even more. I guess if you're wanting to lose the primes then 2x5 would make more sense.

Actually, I might have to pop the command rod arms off of my primes and magnetize them so that I can swap for plasma pistols sometimes.

If you take primes, you run by 10s. If you don't, you run by 5s. Seems simple enough to me

**Red Corsair**

Naix wrote:
What does everyone intend to do to supplement their screens for the arty / heavy weapons now that your one conscript squad that could take insane bravery doesn't really make sense anymore.

I'm wondering whether 3 Infantry squads with flamers in front of the other infantry squads and juicy stuff is sufficient.

It might just be that we need to evaporate any attackers after the first wave with a punisher / vulture.

I never used conscripts before and I definitely will not now and I have had zero issues using infantry squads. Bare in mind I play a combat catachan army and I also use a feth ton of hard hitting characters and a 5 man brick of bullgryn to anchor the center stage

Infantry are amazing, with move move move I have grabbed objectives over 20" away at the start of my turn and with LD8 being catachan so long as characters are nearby I generally don't care about moral either. No one shoots my infantry usually anyway, if they were, I'd be playing poorly. When my army punches a hole through their center turn 1 while getting shot up from the back they don't have the chance to waste time on infantry. I ran a few squads with specials only, but honestly I am swapping to naked squads to pay for the CA point increases.

You would need to be solidly playing from the fluff, like a valhallan army to even have an urge to use conscripts now.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Bobthehero wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
I'd actually play the gak out of Veterans if they had carapace. I don't want to pay 10ppm for carapace+deep strike+hellgun in my heavy infantry regiment, but I'd happily pay 7 or 8 points for carapace + lasgun.

I think Krieg Grenadiers are in the 8-9 pts range, if that's any interest to you.

Yeah, sadly I want to customize my regiment. I've got some neato guys with Roman shields who I think would make excellent Mordians, 'cause they'd look badass in a shield wall, and obviously have a 4+ save, because gigantic tower shields.

Sadly, no Mordian infantry can ever have a 4+ save.

Use them as crusaders.

**Vaktathi**

So, anyone running Russ companies? I keep coming back to them with the CA changes, a grip of Russ tanks with some infantry screen feels pretty solid and unlikely to get changed too much in the near future.

I've been thinking something along the lines of a couple of battalion detachments with three infantry squads apiece and a couple officers each, six HS Russ tanks of various sorts, and two tank commanders for a 2k game. That gives you 8 heavy tanks and 60 dudes plus officers.

Either make all 8 Russ tanks Battlecannon/Hull LC/Sponson HB's or make HQ's up as Executioners w/lascannon & sponson PC's with a couple LC/HB Annihilators and the others as Battlecannon/HB tanks, and kit out the infantry to suit (probably HB/Plasma?) if you want some variety or more AT.

Anyone having any success running something along those lines?

**Alpharius Walks**

Vaktathi wrote:
Anyone having any success running something along those lines?

I tried armored company and hated it pre-Codex. I had a chance to take the below list to the FLGS for a trial this weekend.

Spoiler:

I managed to get in three games in a few hours because they were over by turn 2. Not necessarily the steepest competition (Necrons, Primarch Deathguard with Drones/Daemon Princes/Terminators, Primaris) but it is definitely casual competitive, even with needed adjustments for CA. I use the Basilisk and flamer Chimera/Leman to fish for Overlapping Fire or whatever the proper name of the Cadian stratagem is in conjunction with the relic for a healthy T1 alpha strike. Throwing the infantry in Chimeras and using Leman squadrons keeps the drop total low enough to help with going first.

I was going for WYSIWYG but if you have a choice in your collection or are less strict I would drop sponsons for more stuff. As an example if you drop sponsons and the Basilisk and use a Primaris for the spearhead HQ instead of Pask you can get 8 Lemans pretty easily, maybe 9 if you squeeze points and drop the Demolishers for normal Lemans. Either way it should be a serviceable base to play with.

This does not have the infantry screen since I would prefer to try harder for turn 1 and take risks with deployment but you can also pretty easily make some changes to include a battalion by getting rid of Chimeras. That is going to massively increase your drop count though.

The next thing to try in this vein will be going Catachan to see how I like that and throwing in a super heavy. The draft of that looks like this. Chimera for the characters and squadrons keeps it down to 8 drops even with 3 foot infantry squads.

Spoiler:

**Razerous**

So what is the price increase on...

Astro (+15?)
Primarius Pysker (+6?)
Conscripts (+4ppm)
Leman Russ (Punisher, Demolisher, Executioner, FW Conqueror)
Hellhound
Assassins

Help!

**4100xpb**

From what I've read, the typical thinking of guardsmen is "more men is better than upgraded men." But the more I work with it, kitting out basic guard squads seems to be insanely good value.

For 40 points, I get 10 dudes with lasguns. For 52 points, I get 10 (technically 9) dudes with 7 lasguns, a bolter, heavy bolter, and a plasma gun. This seems like a stupidly Good Deal(tm).

Yes, guardsman die easily, but with 10 wounds, incidental shooting won't take out a squad - you actually need to dedicate some attention to it if you want to get rid of it.

The firepower, while not crazy, is in my mind sufficient. 1.25 MEQ, or 2.6 GEQ at 24". It's varied enough to deal with just about anything other than heavy armour and the like. And that's all before orders, regiment bonuses, or anything else.

But the real power comes from the cheapness and how it scales. For 260 points you can get five of these squads. Compare that to six squads of lasgun guardsmen for 240 points. This just seems like a ridiculous amount of bodies and decent weaponry for 250ish points. Am I crazy, are you guard folks all running basic dudes with little to no upgrades? Because to me this seems like a no-brainer.

**Colonel Cross**

It depends. Pre codex when Leman Russes were garbage I was running pure infantry. Never lost a game. I ran half of my squads with boltguns, plasma guns, and Las cannons. The other half were the frontline units without heavy weapons. The only thing that was difficult to take out was heavy infantry. I think it would have a hard time dealing with Death Guard now.

Now that I'm including tanks I just take 40 guys with only plasma guns as chaff to eat all the mortal wounds and keep out assault units.

Also, your math is a bit off, your tooled up squads are 56 points, not 52.

And bare bones squads supported with orders can actually do quite well against infantry, which is really all I need them to kill when I have 4 battle tanks and some artillery taking out everything else.

**WatcherZero**

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/11/28/factfile-battleforce-astra-militarum-battlegroup-nov-28gw-homepage-post-4/

How to build your battleforce article

Anyone else read it and think GW were intentionally trying to push people in to making the least effective use of the box contents, even playing up stuff that's getting nerfed in Chapter Approved.

**daedalus**

WatcherZero wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/11/28/factfile-battleforce-astra-militarum-battlegroup-nov-28gw-homepage-post-4/

How to build your battleforce article

Anyone else read it and think GW were intentionally trying to push people in to making the least effective use of the box contents, even playing up stuff that's getting nerfed in Chapter Approved.

The Veterans comment is reasonable from the point of view of the number of people over the years that have asked "what do veterans look like? where do I get those kits from?"

Used to see it asked pretty frequently in the 5th ed days.