Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So after 8th came out I shelved my vampire counts. Since Vlad became seemingly less durable and less useful I dropped him, and without him things just seem....lackluster. Plus I can't really take Vlad and another lord effectively, so that limits the amount of magic I can take.

I used to run MSU, using several vampires with skeleton specialty to make the units larger than they began. This with Vlad as a level 3 for the more expensive spells and another lord built as an anti-assassin lord [you go last, I re-roll wounds with killing blow] made my army quite deadly.

Well now I can't do that. And it seems like with combat being so much more important [ie I can't auto-break the enemy] I'm thinking I need to redesign the army.

I have lots of skeletons and ghouls. Since I can't depend on spamming invocation anymore [too easy for enemy to dispel, if I fail once I can't use that wizard again, might not get enough dispel dice], I have to start with larger units of either skeletons or ghouls, like 50+. Then, I need a few casty vampires - extra levels, +2 power dice. Since a level 1 will now cast invocation on a 3+ anyway, there seems little need for the "raise above starting unit size" powers. Just start with a larger unit!

My graveguard always used hand weapon and shield for the 3+ armour. Now they'll be 4+ with a 6+ ward, which I guess is ok. I'd also like to still take the regen banner, but now vlad gains no additional benefit. I suppose I could use it as a block for my casty vampires to hide in, but I'd like the unit to see combat.

My regular opponent used a unit of 45 graveguard deployed as a horde with greatweapons to devastating effect - though I'd like to avoid having to build this unit, as that's a big investment when I already have an army.

Let me get to the point, sorry.

A) Is Vlad still a decent choice? I like the "oops I miscast and rolled a 2, I'll come back to life on a 2+" aspect.
B) Could a unit of 30 or so hand weapon graveguard really be useful?
C) Is a unit each of 40+ skeletons with 40+ ghouls a good core?
D) Is a black coach useful much in 8th?
E) Should Varghulfs be run in pairs, or is my one sufficient?
F) Has anyone had a good experience with wraiths this edition, now that outnumbering doesn't count and they can get +1 for charging? I hate what's been done to terror though.
G) What sort of balance between fighty and casty vampires should I go for? How can I protect casty vampires?
H) Are Black Knights useful in a unit of 10 or less, or do I need more?

Spellbound wrote:
A) Is Vlad still a decent choice? I like the "oops I miscast and rolled a 2, I'll come back to life on a 2+" aspect.
B) Could a unit of 30 or so hand weapon graveguard really be useful?
C) Is a unit each of 40+ skeletons with 40+ ghouls a good core?
D) Is a black coach useful much in 8th?
E) Should Varghulfs be run in pairs, or is my one sufficient?
F) Has anyone had a good experience with wraiths this edition, now that outnumbering doesn't count and they can get +1 for charging? I hate what's been done to terror though.
G) What sort of balance between fighty and casty vampires should I go for? How can I protect casty vampires?
H) Are Black Knights useful in a unit of 10 or less, or do I need more?

A) I don't know. I don't run special characters.
B) Yeah. A lot of people will say great weapons, but I've done well enough with my block of 30 with hand weapon and shields.
C) Yes, both are good core choices. Add in magic banners for those skeletons.
D) I didn't like it. Maybe I'm just unlucky, but it eats up way more of my own power dice than my opponents.
E) Pairs for flanking, solo works for close in support.
F) Wraiths rock. People seem to shy away from fighting heroes (thanks to step-up), so you're seeing less on the table that can hurt them. I've got 5 and a banshee, and I'm thinking about getting 10 more for big games. Wraiths supporting in a flank will push combat from losing by a few to winning by a few. Those extra attacks will help thin down the enemy. Also, they hunt monsters like nobody else can.
G) I tend more towards casty. Ghouls dish it out pretty good, so do Wights.
H) It all depends on what you hit. 6 knights is fun (3 wide), because the 2nd rank fights normally (minus the S3 horse attacks). It limits return attacks and is very easy to maneuver. You won't win combat on your own, but it does make for a nice support, giving 2-3 kills a turn and a +1 for flanking.

-Matt

So let's see.
Casty lord with some magical protection
Fighty lord, less casting, plus magical protection with offensive stuff.

Casty vampire for support
Casty vampire for support
Wight Lord BSB or fighty vampire bsb
fighty vampire

Big block of skeletons with magic banner
Big block of ghouls - maybe two of these
Medium block of graveguard
Varghulf
Wraiths, maybe 2 units.

Sound about right for 2500 or 3k? I'll try to keep the casty vampires rather simple. One with 2x bonus dice, one knowing an entire lore of magic. One of hem with helm of command.

Casty lord will probably have extra spell level, extra 2 dice, and then if I can manage, know a full lore. Then take maybe Talisman of protection whichever gives 4+ ward.

Fighty Lord can take um....vampire powers like -1 enemy leadership and beguile, sword of kings, 4+ ward crown

Give graveguard +1 to hit banner

Sound decent?

Spellbound wrote:A) Is Vlad still a decent choice? I like the "oops I miscast and rolled a 2, I'll come back to life on a 2+" aspect.

I would have to say custom built Vampires are just better than the Special Characters in the Vampire Counts armybook.

Spellbound wrote:B) Could a unit of 30 or so hand weapon graveguard really be useful?

In my opinion, the to wound bonus for wielding Great Weapons is a lot better than the parry save granted by hand weapon and shield. As for the size of the unit, if you are going to go with the Drakenhoff Banner and make it a deathstar, I would go full horde (40+). Otherwise, I would consider (multiple) units of 18 (6x3).

Spellbound wrote:C) Is a unit each of 40+ skeletons with 40+ ghouls a good core?

As you mentioned, the Vampiric Powers giving +1 to cast IoN are less important in 8th edition, which makes combining Skeletons and Ghouls viable. Ghouls are generally better (both survivability and damage output) than Skeletons. However, you do need enough Banners for the Blood and Glory mission.

Spellbound wrote:D) Is a black coach useful much in 8th?
E) Should Varghulfs be run in pairs, or is my one sufficient?
F) Has anyone had a good experience with wraiths this edition, now that outnumbering doesn't count and they can get +1 for charging? I hate what's been done to terror though.

The Black Coach is awesome. However, so are Varghulfs and Wraiths. Personal preference is really the deciding factor here. Play a few games with various combinations and see what you like. Personally, I'm a fan of Black Coach and double Varghulf (2400 points game) as Rare choices.

Spellbound wrote:G) What sort of balance between fighty and casty vampires should I go for? How can I protect casty vampires?

Personally I'm a fan of letting the Vampires cast (and survive), while the units do the dirty work (combats). Magic is more powerful than it was in 7th edition and it can really swing combats in your favor. A Vampire Lord with the Forbidden Lore is an excellent choice. Many use the old bunker style Lord. However, there is also the possibility for a scouting, fast moving Vampire Lord sniping Characters / firing Purple Sun / charging Warmachines.

Spellbound wrote:H) Are Black Knights useful in a unit of 10 or less, or do I need more?

In this edition, Black Knights are almost never useful...

Now, zombies.....

Never was one to take units of zombies, but with this edition are zombies with banners a good way to inflate your fortitude for Blood and Glory?

And are they still useful to come in the flank and cancel rank bonus, or do they just hurt the combat resolution?

Spellbound wrote:Now, zombies.....

Never was one to take units of zombies, but with this edition are zombies with banners a good way to inflate your fortitude for Blood and Glory?

And are they still useful to come in the flank and cancel rank bonus, or do they just hurt the combat resolution?

People say don't run zombies, just summon zombies. Because table corners are no longer worth points, zombies to a pretty good hit this edition.
That said, a pair of 88 point zombie units, deployed far in opposite corners, really does help for blood and glory.
As the center mass of your army pushes forward toward the enemy, you'll opponent might have a hard time heading deep into both corners to round up zombies.
20+ standard, will hold off against fast cav, great eagles and most scouts for awhile, so I think it is viable.
Never throw zombies into a flank with any other unit. Zombies are going to lose combat, often by a lot. Having zombies "help" usually means more crumble.

-Matt

What Matt said.

I used to think they were good for charge soaking at least, until people would just charge them, over-run, and either mess up my LoS to charge or smash into me anyways.

And they do give up VP's, and sometimes just enough to change the margin of victory or defeat by a step.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
" It all depends on what you hit. 6 knights is fun (3 wide), because the 2nd rank fights normally (minus the S3 horse attacks). It limits return attacks and is very easy to maneuver. You won't win combat on your own, but it does make for a nice support, giving 2-3 kills a turn and a +1 for flanking. "

Is this a VC special rule? Calvary cant get full attacks from the back rank, only supporting.

Thunderfrog wrote:What Matt said.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
" It all depends on what you hit. 6 knights is fun (3 wide), because the 2nd rank fights normally (minus the S3 horse attacks). It limits return attacks and is very easy to maneuver. You won't win combat on your own, but it does make for a nice support, giving 2-3 kills a turn and a +1 for flanking. "

Is this a VC special rule? Calvary cant get full attacks from the back rank, only supporting.

Having only 1 attack means that Supporting attacks = full attacks for black knights (but not the mounts).
For ~200 points you get 7 S6 magical killing blow attacks on the charge, 3 S3 horses, and a full command. It's pretty effective for a flanking unit.

-Matt

And then you are stuck in combat with 7 (if none of your Black Knights died in round 1) S4 and 3 S3 attacks due to the enemy being Steadfast...

I'd take a Varghulf as a flanking unit over that unit of 6 Black Knights any day.

Airmaniac wrote:And then you are stuck in combat with 7 (if none of your Black Knights died in round 1) S4 and 3 S3 attacks due to the enemy being Steadfast...

I'd take a Varghulf as a flanking unit over that unit of 6 Black Knights any day.

It all depends on what you are doing. Black knights scare heroes (nobody likes killing blow), while S5 Varghulfs bounce off most fighting heroes.
Black Knights with S6 and more attacks tend to do more damage to enemy monsters than a Varg, and T4 2+ armor with 6 wounds can be a lot more survivable than T5 W4 regen.

6 knights are cheap, and so is a varghulf. I don't think this is one or the other, I think this is a take both situation.
For example, I'd take Black Knights AND a varghulf over just Blood Knights (both options cost about the same).


-Matt

Be interesting to see what the Terrogheist (new model and rules for which will be seen in August's WD) brings to the party. It's sounds like a bigger Varghulf, but given that Gheist is german for ghost, are we looking at an ethereal monster?

I saw him in my LGS's WD yesterday.

WS 3, BS 0, STR 6, T 6, 6 W Ld ? (Dont remember.)

He has a couple abilities.

An either 8" or 12" shot does does 3d6 + Terrorgiests remaining wounds. Total wounds is your total - enemy Ld with no armor saves.

Breath Weapon: Does some stuff. I forgot.

225 points

Wow, that's awesome - average of 3d6 is 10, so that's a couple wounds to an enemy unit with average leadership, plus remaining wounds. If he's undead, and can be healed with Invocation, then that's a nice ability.

The Terrorgeist also has Regeneration 6+.

The model is slick as gak too. It's outstanding.

Trully is mate!

Bought WD today and Terrogheist's attack is actually an 8" shooting attack that does 2D6 plus its remaining wounds damage with no armour saves.

There is no breath weapon.

Even so, the Terrogheist is still a mean beastie and Chaos Knights will quail in its presence. It can be a rare choice or a mount for a Vampire Lord BUT only if he has the Ghoulkin power.

Cairn Wraiths and Banshees can now be taken as heroes with 2 wounds but no options.

Can they, now? Hmmm. Eh...but they can't join units, right, since they're Ethereal? Doesn't that make them worse than taking them as a unit?

I'm not entirely sure but I think you can form a unit of only Characters. So I don't think them not being able to join non-Ethereal units is going to make them worse. You can still take 3 Cairn Wraiths and form a single unit with them?

Airmaniac wrote:I'm not entirely sure but I think you can form a unit of only Characters. So I think them not being able to join non-Ethereal units is going to make them worse. You can still take 3 Cairn Wraiths and form a single unit with them?

Actually, Ethereal characters can join non-ethereal units but, non-ethereal characters can't join ethereal units. This will make them very playable.

I also like the new chill grasp ability on the Wraith.

Any suggestions on a build that'd work with a Zombie dragon?

I was thinking Wristbands of Black Gold for cannon protection, that sword that lets you heal a wound to the vampire or his unit for every wound inflicted, and then Red Fury and Infinite Hatred. Might go for some magic armour, too.
Hefty chunk of points, but reasonably resilient and killy.
I know, I know, dragons are bunk in the new rules, but if you were gonna use a dragon, would you take that config? Or is there a much better one out there?

Here's my plan for Vampire Lord and Dragon.
Vampire Lord: Red Fury, Lore Master Beast, 2+ armor, biting blade. (320 points)

So where's the dragon?
He doesn't ride the dragon, he becomes the dragon.

Lore of Beast:
Savage Beast, he gains +3 S and +3 attacks (casting on 10)
Wildform: he and his unit gain +1S and +1T
Transformation, he turns into the Dragon.

(He's in a unit with the regen banner for extra defense).

Transformation + Redfury = Win. Magic items and mundane equipment don't work, but bloodlines aren't magic nor are they equipment.

Red Fury says wounds in combat, so I think you actually get bonus attacks from wounds generated by breathe and stomps. It should be brutal.


-Matt

@HawaiiMatt

The only option to use Transformation is when you are already in combat, as otherwise it will be dispelled in a subsequent Magic Phase before the Dragon can strike. Obviously, an opponent that sees a Vampire Lord with Red Fury and Lore of Beasts is going to know what you are planning and will either send cheap units to keep the monster unit (with regen banner and general) busy while everything else is cleaned up, or will attempt to avoid the monster unit entirely.

In my opinion, using Transformation of Khadon with a Vampire Lord is most efficient by (ab)using the fact that for every new Transformation you get a new Breath Weapon. Take the 'Hunter in the Dark' and 'Forbidden Lore' Vampiric Powers and give Magic Items for survivability (probably Flayed Hauberk and Wristbands of Black Gold). Position your Vampire Lord for a nice Breath attack in the shooting phase, cast transformation of khadon and force them to stop it (leaving your other Magic virtually free) or Breath on their units every turn. If they don't dispel the Transformation in their Magic Phase, you can charge one of the smaller units that you can clean up within a single round of combat (don't want to risk your Vampire Lord getting caught in combat without Transformation).

Because nothing breaks, you can't avoid the lord like you can with other units. And, you don't really need the transform, that's just gravy.
Ghouls with +1S/+1T rock the house, and even a hero level vampire cleans house with the Savage Terror spell (doing 6 attacks at S8).

The T5 2+ armor and regenerating vampire is perfectly happy casting the other spells form the lore of beast and never transforming. They do go off, especially when you've got a painted up zombie dragon sitting ready to be swapped in. Sometimes the threat of the spell is better than the spell itself.

The problem with hunter in the dark is risking the general alone and on foot. I did it, and it worked, but risk of some lucky hits is real.

-Matt

I agree with Matt when he says that the threat of Transformation is better than the spell itself, I know many a player who will hold back just to make sure Transformation does not go off