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Vulcan Hes’tan
190 points

Space Marine Librarian
Terminator armor, Storm Shield, Avenger, Nullzone
140pts

Tactical Squad
Flamer, Missile Launcher
Sergeant
Combi-Flamer
Rhino-
215pts

Tactical Squad
Flamer, Missile Launcher
Sergeant
Combi-Flamer
Rhino-
215pts

Tactical Squad
Meltagun, Missile Launcher
Sergeant
Combi-Melta
Drop Pod-
220 points

Dreadnaught
Multi-Melta, Dreadnaught Close Combat Weapon with built in heavy flamer
Drop Pod-
150 points

Dreadnaught
Multi-Melta, Dreadnaught Close Combat Weapon with built in heavy flamer
Drop Pod
150 points

Terminator Assault Squad x5
Terminator armor, Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield
Land Raider Crusader - mm, extra armor
475 points

Predator
Autocannon, 2 Lascannon sponsons
120 points

Predator
Autocannon, 2 Lascannon sponsons
120 points

Total Points 1995

This is my current list, I havent been able to test it out yet but hopefully this weekend I will. I wanna fit in anougher land raider and a squad of thunder hammer storm shield termies but I do not know what to cut. Any help would be appreciated thanks in advance peeps.

I think instead of a Crusader you should take a Redeemer and give it a Multi-Melta for the same price. Use the last 5 points to give the podding Sergeant Meltabombs. Otherwise, the list as you have it now looks very good.

As for your other idea of adding a second Land Raider, I run a list similar to that but instead of a second Terminator squad I put a Tactical Squad inside and use it as an objective grabber later in the game. A Land Raider can essentially drive onto an objective and push other units off with a Tank Shock as long as they don't have Meltaguns or a Thunder Hammer, and even still if you just avoid hitting the Meltagun/Thunder Hammer it cannot make a Death Or Glory attack. So far it's worked extremely well. I cut points by replacing the Predators with MM/HF Land Speeders and putting the Dreadnoughts on foot. Here's the exact list:

Vulkan - 190
5 Assault Terminators (TH/SS) - 200
Dreadnought (Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer) - 115
Dreadnought (Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer) - 115
10 Tactical (Missile Launcher, Meltagun, Combi-Melta, Razorback w/ TL Lascannon) - 260
10 Tactical (Missile Launcher, Meltagun, Combi-Melta, Razorback w/ TL Lascannon) - 260
10 Tactical (Multi-Melta, Meltagun, Thunder Hammer) - 205
Land Speeder (Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer) - 70
Land Speeder (Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer) - 70
Land Raider Redeemer (Multi-Melta) - 250
Land Raider (Multi-Melta) - 260
Total 1,995

The last 5 points can be spent on whatever. Meltabombs on a Sergeant or something. The Tactical Squads with the Razorbacks each combat squad and put the Missile Launcher on a hill somewhere. The squad with the Thunder Hammer rides in the regular Land Raider. Vulkan and the Terminators ride in the Redeemer. I've found that even though the Dreadnoughts don't have Drop Pods, they still pull their weight in that configuration. Since they are mobile, their Multi-Melta can be used against lighter vehicles until they are close enough to hit high armor targets, and they do provide a distraction from the Land Speeders, and vice versa.

Hope that helps!

He would have 10 points left over because tactical squads can't take thunderhammers :/ .

I would go with a double-LR list, or a no LR list. Single Raiders at 2K points aren't a good idea, IMO.

If I was doing a multi-Raider Vulkan list for 2K, I'd look into something like this:

Vulkan He'Stan - 190
Librarian - Null Zone, Avenger - 100

Tactical Squad - Flamer, Combi-Flamer, MM, Rhino - 215
Tactical Squad - Flamer, Combi-Flamer, MM, Rhino - 215

TH/SS Termies x10 - 400
Land Raider Crusader, MM, Extra Armor - 275

Sternguard Veterans x5 - x3 Combi-Melta, x2 Combi-Flamer in Rhino - 185

Land Speeder w/ MM & HF - 70
Land Speeder w/ MM & HF - 70

Land Raider Crusader, MM, Extra Armor - 275

= 1995 Points

Really? I thought they could........oh well, Power Fist then. It's been so long since I've actually had to reference the Tactical Squad page that I assumed they could take them. The extra 10 points could put Meltabombs on the other two Sergeants.

Is vulkan the only competitive codex marine list?

The dilema I'm facing is beside my 1 extra land raider (which I'm getting the conversion kit to make into a crusader) pretty much the above list of mine is every model I own. I have 4 tactical terminators and maybe I can scrounge up something else to use as proxys for TH/SS terminators 6-10. Also I forgot to put that the land raider crusader has a mm and extra armor. But since I'm moving again pretty soon I wont be able to borrow things like landspeeders from my friend Gornall. And meltaburn the answer is no Vulcan lists are not the only good lists out there for Vannilla Space Marines. My friend Gornall plays a very good shooty list that I have not beaten ever. But soon I will (hopefully). Here is a link to his list. (I couldnt find his current list but this 1 is close to it)
http://meltaspam.blogspot.com/2011/04/breaking-in-new-game-room.html

Several of the special characters in the vanilla codex are pretty good. Vulkan, Pedro Kanto, Lysander, Cassius, and to a lesser extent Shrike and Marneus Calgar. The first three are by far the best, probably about in that order, but Cassius is pretty solid leading Assault Terminators, and Shrike can make some interesting scout-rush lists.

Calgar can do some interesting things too, but he is prohibitively expensive to use at lower point levels. Abusing his Chapter Tactics can be quite fun, and frustrating as hell for your opponent. Shoot a Tactical Squad with an assault unit and kill 3 models before charging? That's nice! We'll just fail our morale test on purpose and run away out of assault range. If we don't make it far enough, and you charge us anyway, we'll automatically pass the morale test to rally or be destroyed. Then, when you beat us in combat, we will fall back again, and either you will catch us and combat resumes, or you won't catch us and if we get far enough we'lll rally and double tap you on our turn!

Yeah, Calgar is fun.

Vulcan Hes’tan
190 points

Tactical Squad
Flamer, Missile Launcher
Sergeant
Rhino-
205 points

Tactical Squad
Meltagun, Missile Launcher
Sergeant
Rhino-
210 points

Tactical Squad
Meltagun, Missile Launcher
Sergeant
175 points

Dreadnaught
Multi-Melta, Dreadnaught Close Combat Weapon with built in heavy flamer
115 points

Dreadnaught
Multi-Melta, Dreadnaught Close Combat Weapon with built in heavy flamer
115 points

Terminator Assault Squad x5
Terminator armor, Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield
Land Raider Crusader - mm, extra armor
475 points

Land Raider Crusader- mm, extra armor
275 points

Predator
Autocannon, 2 Lascannon sponsons
120 points

Predator
Autocannon, 2 Lascannon sponsons
120 points


Total Points 2000

Here is a Two LandRaider List (only 1 hammantor squad though) which list do you think is better my first or second.

So sounds like i will enjoy playing this codex then with all the options just now to pick a paint scheme. And by the way i like the your list #2.

I like that second list better.

meltabum wrote:Is vulkan the only competitive codex marine list?

No! I play a marine list and I don't use any Special Character at all. I have a very good win ratio. I have only lost to a Drop podding Nid list with like 30 freaking bonesword warriors and Doom! on a regular basis. I just don't think anyone knows how to play Marines without some Special Character. Thats just my two cents. There are plenty of builds out there without using a SC. You just have to find it and practice with it.

Aldarionn wrote:Calgar can do some interesting things too, but he is prohibitively expensive to use at lower point levels. Abusing his Chapter Tactics can be quite fun, and frustrating as hell for your opponent. Shoot a Tactical Squad with an assault unit and kill 3 models before charging? That's nice! We'll just fail our morale test on purpose and run away out of assault range. If we don't make it far enough, and you charge us anyway, we'll automatically pass the morale test to rally or be destroyed. Then, when you beat us in combat, we will fall back again, and either you will catch us and combat resumes, or you won't catch us and if we get far enough we'lll rally and double tap you on our turn!.

None of these tactics require Calgar, you can do all of this with just standard Combat Tactics. All Calgar does is give you the ability to auto-Pass as well as auto-Fail, so you get quasi-Fearless without the downsides of being fearless. While decent, it's really not worth his ridiculous points cost, especially since most of the useful tactics you get default in the army with Combat Tactics.

@ the OP - That second list looks very good, and I quite like the way it's set up, but i think I would still run one of those Crusaders as a Redeemer, primarily for fluff. I just like the Redeemer better. Also, you can save some points by taking Extra Armor off the Crusader carrying the Tactical Squad. They don't really need it as much as the Terminators, and combined with making one a Redeemer you could add a Power Fist to the Sergeant going in that Land Raider.

Overall though a very solid list.

@TehCheator - Those tactics can be used with regular marines but not quite as reliably. You can auto-fail a morale test, but you cannot auto-pass, so if something DOES assault you, and you fail the second test, the squad gets wiped out. Also, if you lose combat and want to hold, you can auto-pass with Calgar to keep your opponent in combat without taking extra No Retreat wounds. Calgar makes the tactics more reliable.

Regular codex marines are plenty competitive. Most people just don't play them correctly. They don't need special character HQs to be good. In fact, I think the best lists don't use them at all.

The issue is not that codex marines aren't competitive. It's that Space Wolves and Blood Angels are MORE competitive in the various styles vanilla Marines play without a Special Character. There is almost nothing Vanilla Space Marines can do that Blood Angels or Space Wolves cannot do better except when taking Vulkan, Pedro Kantor, or Lysander (or a biker captain, but that barely counts).

If you think I'm wrong, build the most competitive non-character Space Marine list you can build, then build the same list with Blood Angels and Space Wolves, using roughly the same equivalent unit selection, and make them as competitive as possible. I'm pretty sure you will find that one of the other two books will do it better.

I didn't used to think along those lines but the more I play and the more familiar I become with the various books, the more I see it's true. Unless you are fielding a list using a special character, the vanilla Codex is eclipsed by the other two.

If you think I'm wrong, build the most competitive non-character Space Marine list you can build, then build the same list with Blood Angels and Space Wolves, using roughly the same equivalent unit selection, and make them as competitive as possible. I'm pretty sure you will find that one of the other two books will do it better.

They're actually night and day different from one another. The other codexes are better, because they're more focused on a single thing. BA have speed and CC, and Wolves have amazing MSU groups. Codex Marines are more of a mid-range unit, and if you take advantage of the things that are good in their codex, they can be very powerful. I'd run something like this at 2000:

Librarian (Null Zone, Avenger) - 100

Tac Squad (Melta, PF, MM) in Rhino - 235
Tac Squad (Melta, PF, MM) in Rhino - 235

TH/SS Termies x10 - 400
in Land Raider Crusader (MM, Armor) - 275

Dreadnaught w/ x2 TLAC - 125
Dreadnaught w/ x2 TLAC - 125

Land Speeder w/ MM & HF - 70
Land Speeder w/ MM & HF - 70

Predator w/ HBs - 85
Land Raider Crusader (MM, Armor) - 275

= 1995 Points

Yes, but if you look at that exact same list with a few minor changes (Drop the Predator, Change Tac Squads to 2x Assault Squads & Split the Terminators into two units) made with the Blood Angels Codex, you get this:

Librarian (Shield, Rage) - 100
2x Sanguinary Priest - 100
5 Terminators (3x TH/SS) - 215
-Land Raider Crusader (MM, Armor) - 275
5 Terminators (3x TH/SS) - 215
-Land Raider Crusader (MM, Armor) - 275
10 Assault (No Jump Packs, Rhino, 2x Meltaguns, Meltabombs) - 215
10 Assault (No Jump Packs, Rhino, 2x Meltaguns, Meltabombs) - 215
Land Speeder (Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer) - 70
Land Speeder (Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer) - 70
Dreadnought (2x TL Autocannon) - 125
Dreadnought (2x TL Autocannon) - 125
Total 2,000

The list is almost 100% identical but the Terminators have Furious Charge and FNP, as well as a few Lightning Claws to take advantage of the increased initiative. One of the squads also has Unleashed Rage, and the whole list has a 5+ cover save in the open. Other than that, the list performs exactly the same, but with better melee units, and the Assault Squads can move Flat-Out in their Rhinos, and can move 12" and fire their Meltaguns out of the hatch. It's better in pretty much every way that matters with only one less vehicle. There's also nothing stopping you from just painting the list whatever color you want and playing it as any chapter in existence, so long as you make it clear you are using Blood Angels rules.

Well, you lose out on additional ranged shooting, have less S8 attacks, have no Null Zone and you lose out on Chapter Tactics for the marines. Some parts are better, but you have to give up stuff in another area to get it.

In my opinion, both lists are good. Blood Angels can field a better 2K list than that, but in a different way. If I'm playing a reactive mid-range MEQ build, I still prefer codex marines for that role.

I'm in no way saying that codex marines are better than BA or Wolves. However, when performing certain roles, they can create better lists for mid-field combat. Combat Tactics is a big part of that too.

You have totally 3 different armies, you can not compare all three because all three are different.

Codex Marines is like someone said a better mid range fire support army, BA are a better CC army and Wolfs are just wolves. They kinda can do it all in my opinion. But it doesn't mean that one is better then the other.

I would run my Marine list against either of those 2 and I am pretty sure I would win. In fact, I have a couple of times. Now my LGS is not as competitive as most as we play to have fun and we play with fluff and background in mind. But I have beaten them and with just a simple 155 pt. Chapter Master. As I really don't use him but for a 2+ save to dish off wounds to. And the Nice Orbital Strike.

But I guess it really all depends on tactics, because lets face it tactics are first and the list is second.

Aldarionn wrote:@TehCheator - Those tactics can be used with regular marines but not quite as reliably. You can auto-fail a morale test, but you cannot auto-pass, so if something DOES assault you, and you fail the second test, the squad gets wiped out. Also, if you lose combat and want to hold, you can auto-pass with Calgar to keep your opponent in combat without taking extra No Retreat wounds. Calgar makes the tactics more reliable.

I'll grant you the auto-Pass when you lose CC so you don't take No Retreat wounds, but the test that you take when you get assaulted is not a Morale test, it's a test to regroup. And per ATSKNF, you automatically pass tests to regroup, so if you get assaulted while falling back you already automatically pass and then stay and fight.

Aldarionn wrote:Other than that, the list performs exactly the same, but with better melee units, and the Assault Squads can move Flat-Out in their Rhinos, and can move 12" and fire their Meltaguns out of the hatch.

You can't move 12" and fire out of the hatch ever, even with fast vehicles. Also ironically enough, the Terminators in the Vanilla list supported by their Librarian will do better against these, as Null Zone beats Unleash Rage in a Terminator on Terminator battle.

TehCheator wrote:
You can't move 12" and fire out of the hatch ever, even with fast vehicles.

Good catch. Fast only changes what the vehicle can fire at Combat and Cruising Speeds, not what the unit inside can fire. My bad.

TehCheator wrote:Also ironically enough, the Terminators in the Vanilla list supported by their Librarian will do better against these, as Null Zone beats Unleash Rage in a Terminator on Terminator battle.

That depends entirely on who gets the charge.

If the Blood Angels Terminators charge and the Librarian casts Unleashed Rage, the Lightning Claws and the Force Weapon will be striking at Initiative 5 and Strength 5 with a re-roll to hit, and the Lightning Claws will reroll to wound. That means they will cause 2.8 kills before the Vanilla Terminators get to strike back. The Thunder Hammers (also re-rolling to hit) will kill another 2.16 Terminators, and the return hits (taking casualties into account) will cause 0.6 kills, assuming the enemy Librarian stays in the Land Raider as he should.

If the Vanilla Terminators charge, the Blood Angels cause 1.07 kills before the Vanilla Terminators strike, and 0.82 kills with the Thunder Hammers. The Vanilla Thunder Hammers will kill 3.37 taking casualties, Null Zone and Wound Allocation into account (3 wounds allocated to the TH/SS Terminators and 1.91 to the Lightning Claws).

Neither of these number sets include the probability of a Psychic Hood nullifying the powers cast, but it's pretty clear that the winner of combat will be whoever charged. I give the Blood Angels the edge because in a head-to-head fight, they will almost certainly wipe out the enemy Terminators on a charge, only losing perhaps a single model in return, or their Librarian if the enemy chooses to allocate attacks to him. On the other hand, the Vanilla Terminators only win combat by a 1.48 kill margin on a charge, and it's likely that the Blood Angels will stick around for another round before combat ends. The Blood Angels are also MUCH more resilient against massed firepower and swarms. FNP gives them a distinct advantage against large numbers of attacks, and the Initiative 5 Lightning Claws on the charge can help thin the number of attacks the actually take.

After playing regular Codex Marines for so long, I can't imagine losing Null Zone, cheap TH/SS Termies or Combat Tactics. Especially not for FC and FNP on my Termies, which don't really need either of those abilities at all.

Each army has it's advantages and disadvantages. Codex marines are a better mid-range army, and BA are a better assault army. If I built an assault list with my C:SM, they'd be worse than the Angels. And likewise with the BA doing a mid-range gunline build. As we can clearly see in those army lists. You lose half the number of S8 attacks in CC, you lose 8 ranged anti light armor shots (and another AV13 vehicle in the process), Null Zone, Avenger and, most importantly, Combat Tactics. But you gain a ton of CC potential (particularly w/ the regular troops). People who are used to playing BA will like the changes, and people who are used to playing Codex Marines can't live with them.

Point being, that you don't need to be using a special character to have your Codex Marines be comparable to BA/SW. You just have to play to their strengths (as you need to with every army).

Sorry for the thread hijack!