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I was at my local store recently watching some of the games for a RTT and I was noticing several mistakes during play and during several of the games that I was spotting as they were pretty obvious, some were really game changing, some had the potential to be, a few examples:

A single (as they always are) dreadknight firing gatling psilencer at a squad of guardsmen and then multi assaulting them, and their chimera, and then 'auto penning' without rolling using the Nemesis Greatsword (which yes, as long as you roll over a 4 on 2d6, you do penetrate with a reroll if you miss) and going directly to the damage chart.

Space Wolf army facing chaos terminators who are inches away from the wolf lines disembarking from their rhinos, rapid firing bolters, firing meltas, and then assaulting (which led to an oh poo moment when someone else asked "you rapid fired their bolters?" and undid the assault moves

In the above situations, do you inform a judge as to what is going on? mention to the player who is breaking the rules that they may have missed the FAQ on that issue, or let it go? I don't want to be TFG, but I also don't want to see people getting robbed out of a fair game.

As long as both players agree on a rule, then it is right. You should never interject in a tourney game even if they are playing wrong.

Now a judge can, but really they usually stick to the head table.

nkelsch wrote:As long as both players agree on a rule, then it is right. You should never interject in a tourney game even if they are playing wrong.

Now a judge can, but really they usually stick to the head table.

That seems like a strange way to do things.

Aye, personally if I overhear someone say something completely wrong. Like...if someone states a rule completely wrong like a 4 on the penetrate table is a destroyed, or if you get 1d6 or 2d6 for run and they pick the wrong one. Why would you not want to quickly just say, you might want to check the rulebook as I remember it differently. Just my perspective, don't know why you wouldn't help out your fellow gamer.

I'm always torn when it comes to the situation. On one hand, if they are truly breaking the rules, the fairness of the tournament results are in question, however i could also see how one could be annoyed by what they see as coaching. This happens to be my major pet peeve in 40k.

If it had been me, I would have mentioned it to the judge as a heads up but not at the table (unless it was a friend that was getting screwed over and then I would discretely tell him). Its annoying when a stranger third party interrupts a game for a rules correction. It's different if you're on a first name basis with one or hopefully both of the players.

If it's really clearly a broken rule, I'll speak up or raise my hand, but politely- I'll respect their choice if they prefer that a third party not intrude and give them the chance to object to my interjection. If it's something ambiguous, I'd rather leave it alone; I might have heard only part of the situation, or they may have come to an agreement that I didn't hear regarding a piece of terrain, or whatever.

nkelsch wrote:As long as both players agree on a rule, then it is right. You should never interject in a tourney game even if they are playing wrong.

In the Grey Knight example in the OP, it looks like one player was taking the other player's word for a rule in his codex that the other player wasn't familiar with (I say this as a fantasy player, but that's what it looks like). I find these situations particularly tricky, because one player (for whatever reason) has their own army's rules wrong (which he should know stone cold). It's hard for the other player to call him out on each instance of an army-specific rule, if he's not familiar with playing against them... particularly with an army like GK, with all their custom rules.

He could/should ask to see his codex and double-check for himself... but again that's not feasible for every instance of an army-specific rule that he's not familiar with, if he hasn't played an army like GK before. He also could/should read up on the army's rules, so that this situation doesn't come up... but that doesn't change the fact that it will come up quite often with players in tournaments.

nkelsch wrote:Now a judge can, but really they usually stick to the head table.

Judges should be spread equally among tables for the most part, for one thing, and for another, I totally agree with the sentiments raised above- if someone really has a concern, they can go get the judge themselves. OR, as Mannahnin said, I see nothing wrong with an observer very politely mentioning that there is a major rules infraction going on- particularly if the players are looking up the rule themselves / wanting help / etc.

If they're not looking for help, I still think a polite interjection ("Did you rapid fire and assault?") can be extremely helpful. Tournament games are not islands, one of the reasons I enjoy them is the fact that there can be judge intervention when needed, and certainly a knowledgeable person pointing players in the right direction can be really helpful, too.

This is not a black and white situation, there's a huge grey area here- and it should be treated as such. I'm not advocating for anything beyond what people said above (getting a judge, very politely mentioning the broken rule, or the like). It's a fine line between doing the appropriate thing in this situation and overstepping, and I've seen and done it wrong both ways (for lack of a better expression, sinning by omission or commission).

If it was me I was playing in a tourney and someone plays me wrong I would want a 3rd party to speak up I don't know every book well enough to know otherwise. The problem with getting the organiser or a ref is that by the time you have found him and gone back to the table its to late you cant replay the turn, and it seems very spiteful. If you speak out then honest players will not mind if they are purposefully dishonest then they will get mad. Can you imagine how annoying it would be to be told after a game "you lost that because you opponent cheated but I didn't say anything."

In a tourney... Mind your business. Correcting rules in defense of a player who doesn't know the rules could be considered coaching or helping which people get pissy about. Friendly games, feel free to chat It up. In a tourney, it is not your role as a spectator to do anything.

If you are playing simple rules wrong in a tourney, you are probably not at the head tables so the integrity of that game probably means nothing.

So if you saw a player completely get things wrong and trash his opponent in the process, you would do nothing.

In a tournament, unless you are a judge you shouldn't say anything as it's not your place to officiate on rules.

That being said I personally have walked behind the 'victim' of a rules violation and whispered something like, "You might want to look at his codex." but that's as far as I'll go.

Trooper wrote:So if you saw a player completely get things wrong and trash his opponent in the process, you would do nothing.

In a tourney... Yes. People will get pissed if they think you are coaching or giving advice.

It is not your place to observe and play judge, and if two players play it wrong and finish the game that is how it is. None of your business. A judge can be involved, it is his business.

Spectators have no reason to involve themselves in tourney games. The times they have and videotaped it and put it online, nothing turned out well.

As a judge at events.. People shouldnt explain rules at other tables, however they SHOULD come see the judge to explain whats going on. Ive done this many times where I ask what just happened, and explain to them that they did it totally wrong

Just like its not a citizens place to enforce the laws, its not a players place to judge a tournament :p Since generally you dont have authority nor do they appreciate it

I'm sure the guy currently being cheated (even if unintentionally) would appreciate it if someone mentioned it.

Aduro wrote:I'm sure the guy currently being cheated (even if unintentionally) would appreciate it if someone mentioned it.

Thats my point really, if the person cheating has a problem with it then so what he's cheating. The poor guy being thrown will thank you for it. I think ye it is a 2 player game but the rules are the rules.

What I do, as this happens to me a lot, is I remember what happened, and discreetly tell the individual after the game. That way they don't get it wrong next time. It's a buyer beware game, so each person is responsible for knowing the rules.
Let them play.
Say nothing.
If you forget after the game, who cares.

This has happened to me in a tournament and what you say you'd do and how you feel about it being done can be two different things.

In my situation I was playing against a clearly weaker player who had only a very limited grasp of their rules set. In this case I decided to help them out and commented on when they had done things wrong/ made errors as I felt this was good gamesmanship. I knew I could have smashed them to pieces but felt this wasn't what I wanted to do. However, my feelings changed quite drastically when a friend of the player came over and began 'coaching them' specifically pointing out how to counter what I was doing. Clearly they also knew this was a weak player but me helping them and them getting help from a friend I saw quite differently. By the end of the game I was sorley pi**ed off.

As a helper in our local tourneys, I have to interject all the time. If I'm not playing I'm usually correcting someone about squadron rules or the damage charts.

Coaching someone how to play, and telling them when they have played rules wrong are two different things. What you have described is wrong nanook is quite bad, the person had no right to help.

nkelsch wrote:Correcting rules in defense of a player who doesn't know the rules could be considered coaching or helping which people get pissy about. Friendly games, feel free to chat It up. In a tourney, it is not your role as a spectator to do anything.

If you are playing simple rules wrong in a tourney, you are probably not at the head tables so the integrity of that game probably means nothing.

As the above poster says, correcting a blatant rules mistake and coaching are two separate things.

I'll give a personal example. I cast a spell on an opponent's unit, a spell that it turns out I'm not allowed to cast on that unit because it's ItP. A spectator knows this and says nothing, only telling me after the game.

I was not pleased... I would have welcomed a simple "Can you cast that on a unit that's ItP?" to remind me of the rule and stop me from cheating my opponent.

It's a small example, but shows how easy it is to do this in a non-obtrusive way... whereas doing nothing results in things being played wrong. I also totally disagree that for some reason you think the "integrity of that game means nothing" if it's not at the head tables? Especially in 5-round tournies, players can get an early draw and then work their way up through the standings, ending up at or near the top. I've seen it happen... and to say the integrity of their games that were not on the top tables means nothing is obviously wrong- as they affect their final placement just as much (or possibly even more, depending on the outcomes) as their final round games at the top tables.

To throw my 2 cents in...

someone trying to be cheeky using their own codex, which the opponent might not be aware of- i'd jump in. If i was 100% certain, for example, if they were trying to claim that the camo netting on their russ gave them a cover save, if it moved and wasn't obscured for example, i would say ' you might wanna check that'. People losing out because they haven't read every other codex is not on, i'd then probably tell a judge that player was doing that, as i think its an abuse of neccasary trust.

as for 40k rules, if it was someone i knew didn't know better, for example a guy i know who has no idea what furious charge and counter attack do, or that kind of thing, and people are claiming they do stuff they arn't, i might throw in a slight nudge.


If it's random strangers with the rules, i don't jump in.

but again, it's open to interpretation, the only way i would jump in 100% of the time is if the player is deliberately cheating, or i think they are abusing the other players naivity and exploiting it..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a summary, if it is something a player wouldn't neccasarily know, i.e rules not in their armies book that was being deliberately exploited for a big advantage (like, bad example, but a necron 'forgetting' to mention phase out)

if it's a rule they should know from the 40k rulebook, then i won't

The issue is there IS a difference between the following:

*Both players unfamiliar with the rules and playing it wrong.
*One player unfamiliar with the rules and the other player letting them play it wrong for personal advantage.
*One player unfamiliar with the rules and the other player playing their rules wrong for personal advantage.
*Two players who know the rules who are disagreeing over a rule.

The issue is there is a fine line between people being unfamiliar with rules and someone purposely cheating. And there is also a line between coaching and fixing rule disputes.

Is it your place to to step in if someone forgets to use wargear? They are breaking the rules. Is it your place to step in if two people agree on a misinterpreting of the rules? If they agree, then they are playing the game in an appropriate way. Very often, telling someone that a rule works differently changes the way someone ends up playing which could be considered coaching in some situations.

The *ONLY* fair and valid thing is for spectators to butt out unless asked for help. It isn't a spectators place to be involved in a game, even if they play it horribly wrong. It is a judges job.

If you are so smart, and good at rules, then ask the TO if you can be deputized as a judge.

Spectators should stay out of games unless they are a judge or both players ask for input from the peanut gallery.

I'd want to make absolutely sure I was in the right before I chimed in on someone else's game. I've had people chime in on my games and they were wrong. In one instance the guy was very polite and asked if he could say something. We said ok and he proceeded to explain to us that my opponent's long fangs couldn't split their fire. So we corrected him. In another game my valiant war walker was stuck in combat with some chaos marines and all my opponent can manage is stunned and shaken results. An observer chimes in "aren't war walkers open topped?"

I guess this depends on how friendly your scene is I respect what you are saying but to me wrong is wrong. If there are loads of thing the players are doing wrong then fine get a TO but if its a simple that unit is below half strength they cant rally neither players spots it then tell them. Polity of course.

Trooper wrote:but to me wrong is wrong.

In friendly play, if you guys have a good group, chime in.

Tourneys you have no business saying a word regardless how wrong they are. It is not your job, and has no place in a competitive event. If you really have to intervene, then go to a TO. Even if you were 'right' those two players have no obligation to listen to you or your input.

I agree with the point of annoying spectators being wrong. And with games already being having issues finishing in time for tourneys, I don't appreciate spectators wasting my games time for them to feel like they are helping. I many times make the informed choice to not fight with opponents with different rule interpretations when it is an issue that won't impact the game because I don't want to burn the time it would take to clear it up. Those are decisions two people playing a game can make. They don't need you interjecting.

Since I don't have a way of knowing which spectators are skilled informed judge-quality spectators and which are just noobs who are going to waste my time or interfere with the game, I would rather all of them act the same, which is 'butt out.'

One player unfamiliar with the rules and the other player letting them play it wrong for personal advantage.

I’ve been the victim of this when (in my second game in the current edition of the rules), I wanted to multi-assault but was informed categorically by my opponent that I could not. I would have written it off as a simple mistake but in a second game he ‘helpfully’ informed me there was no point in my assaulting his drop pod as ‘it couldn’t do anything to you’ and then fired its storm bolter in his next turn. Sadly he also claimed a unit of mine was in the open because he could see one model when the rest were obscured or concealed entirely. At that point I just let him have his way as winning was clearly rather important to him.

Now fair enough, one can argue I should know all the rules. But I don’t think deliberately misinforming a less experienced opponent should go unchallenged by a third party. In fact I’ve had an observer chip in and correct me when I’ve (in ignorance) tried to do something illegal and I was grateful for that intervention.

An honest mistake is one thing. But even in a tournament, I think there should be fair play. The comment about unsound third party advice is pertinent (I have inadvertently benefited from this when an observer quoted a fourth edition rule to my advantage) but it seems to me that disallowing comments from observers entirely is not necessarily helpful. Certainly it would be best for an umpire to make a specific ruling, but I don’t think an observer saying ‘check the codex on that because...’ or ‘check the rulebook on that because...’ is necessarily out of order.

I should add that one chap I've played three times (once in competition) went out of his way to remind me of things I should do because he knew I was inexperienced with the current rules. Not telling me what to do tactically but reminding me of psychic powers or terrain benefits/restrictions. Of course this had a positive affect on all three games as I'd remind him of units not moved/fired, give him the benefit of terrain when ambiguous, etc.

nkelsch wrote:

Tourneys you have no business saying a word regardless how wrong they are. It is not your job, and has no place in a competitive event. If you really have to intervene, then go to a TO. Even if you were 'right' those two players have no obligation to listen to you or your input.

I have to disagree you must have a hard core tournament system in America. The last thing I want to see is a group of people pitching in and telling the players the rules but there isn't a judge at every table, playing the rules correct does matter.

Nkelsch, I feel you are dead wrong, a judge simply can't be everywhere and it takes less time to simply bring it up then to freeze the game and get a judge. Willingness to let a player get cheated should not be tolerated.

If I was gaming at any level and got a rule wrong I'd want people to speak up and correct me or even suggest "I have a quick read of the rulebook on that one"

If the player starts getting agro about it then I suggest they're knowingly mis-representing the rules or down right cheating, If you get abuse from the people in the game then either go tell the judge or simply walk away...