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lord_blackfang wrote:A few people seem to be of the opinion that cheating is fine as long as you don't get caught... a rather surprising stance considering the stink the tourney crowd throws up every year after "Ard Boyz. But of course nobody is man enough to call out the cheaters there, instead they film them and shame them on Youtube later from safe anonymity...

Yes, I will point out significant rules errors and I will certainly point out blatant cheating. Rules are rules.

And judges are judges. You aren't.

lord_blackfang wrote:A few people seem to be of the opinion that cheating is fine as long as you don't get caught... a rather surprising stance considering the stink the tourney crowd throws up every year after "Ard Boyz. But of course nobody is man enough to call out the cheaters there, instead they film them and shame them on Youtube later from safe anonymity...

Yes, I will point out significant rules errors and I will certainly point out blatant cheating. Rules are rules.

Well said.

The thing we keep getting back to is that, if a player does something wrong the game has been changed.

1. You find a judge explain to him that your saw something done wrong you both go over to the table. The players are now on the next turn thinking everything is fine. The situation has passed and now the game can never be resolved fairly.

2. You say "excuse me" your forgot this or whatever after it has happened but before anything else has a chance to happen that player should be grateful and say well spotted. You then go back to watching.

Im not saying be proactive and tell the players before they do anything what the rules in a situation is, tell them after. You cant be blamed for coaching by calling out a mistake.

Unless your tactics rely on preying on a less knowledgeable opponent and you don't want to be called on it.

Troy wrote:yes but I prefer wild over the top threats of physical violence. It helps me cope with people who butt into my business.

Please stop posting along this line... threats of violence are not only against Dakka's rules, but a very poor overreaction to an issue involving a game of toy soldiers.

I know people feel more OK with doing this over the internet, for some reason, but as we're talking about what to actually do in these cases, it's inappropriate.

Even if you feel that that's what you would do in these situations, it doesn't belong on Dakka.

Troy wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:A few people seem to be of the opinion that cheating is fine as long as you don't get caught... a rather surprising stance considering the stink the tourney crowd throws up every year after "Ard Boyz. But of course nobody is man enough to call out the cheaters there, instead they film them and shame them on Youtube later from safe anonymity...

Yes, I will point out significant rules errors and I will certainly point out blatant cheating. Rules are rules.

And judges are judges. You aren't.

Is crime also okay unless a cop is looking?

lord_blackfang wrote:

Troy wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:A few people seem to be of the opinion that cheating is fine as long as you don't get caught... a rather surprising stance considering the stink the tourney crowd throws up every year after "Ard Boyz. But of course nobody is man enough to call out the cheaters there, instead they film them and shame them on Youtube later from safe anonymity...

Yes, I will point out significant rules errors and I will certainly point out blatant cheating. Rules are rules.

And judges are judges. You aren't.

Is crime also okay unless a cop is looking?

Are you going to arrest people committing crimes and do you have the authority to? You can report the crime to the police... That is the responsible thing to do... What if you try to do a citizens arrest because you see what you claim is an 'obvious' crime only to find out that what may be a crime in your home town is not a crime in the jurisdiction you are visiting? What if int he attempt to stop an OBVIOUS crime you cause more issues for the store because you are an untrained onlooker... What happens if instead of getting the police, your intervention causes harm to the store clerk during a robbery? Are you going to hide behind, "It was an obvious crime, and it was my obligation to step in... sorry about the gunshot wound my old chap..."

All your hyperbole aside, I certainly have the right to say "Excuse me, miss, but that guy's hand is in your purse."

RiTides wrote:

Troy wrote:yes but I prefer wild over the top threats of physical violence. It helps me cope with people who butt into my business.

Please stop posting along this line... threats of violence are not only against Dakka's rules, but a very poor overreaction to an issue involving a game of toy soldiers.

I know people feel more OK with doing this over the internet, for some reason, but as we're talking about what to actually do in these cases, it's inappropriate.

Even if you feel that that's what you would do in these situations, it doesn't belong on Dakka.

I am not addressing any poster whoatsoever in my statement, just noting that if you interject into my business I will aggressively push back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

lord_blackfang wrote:

Troy wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:A few people seem to be of the opinion that cheating is fine as long as you don't get caught... a rather surprising stance considering the stink the tourney crowd throws up every year after "Ard Boyz. But of course nobody is man enough to call out the cheaters there, instead they film them and shame them on Youtube later from safe anonymity...

Yes, I will point out significant rules errors and I will certainly point out blatant cheating. Rules are rules.

And judges are judges. You aren't.

Is crime also okay unless a cop is looking?

Are you going to arrest the criminals then? Do you wear a mask and roam the streets at night? I'm not talking to the [see forum posting rules] am I.

Wow, lot of harsh stances on this issue, and alot of it I understand, from both sides. I have run a number of small events and won a few larger ones in my area and am often called upon for rules help by people playing in tournaments that I am, myself, playing in. This has yet to be an issue as I make damned sure I am only giving answers regarding the specific rule (no coaching) and if I'm not 100% sure I tell them so and recommend they get a judge. I have also at times, stopped people from accidentally cheating. But I do so in a descreet and respectful manner and again, only if I'm 100% certain.

On the flip side I have had some people due the same for me and I was always greatful when done properly (I would hate to find out afterward). What I cannot tollerate is blatant coaching and people just spouting whatever nonesense they THINK is the rules and slowing down my game. To those I usually end up asking them to please move on as this is a competative event and they are interfering, only having to raise my voice once.

Of course, our area (Middle TN) has a pretty laid back group of tourney goers, and alot of tournament questions get handled by player concensus (both those playing and not playing the game in question) before going to a judge.

lord_blackfang wrote:All your hyperbole aside, I certainly have the right to say "Excuse me, miss, but that guy's hand is in your purse."

On the street = General FLGS play.

This is in an event. You certainly do not have the 'right' to interject into someone else's event. While you can feel there is cheating and you can feel you have a right to do something about it, only the judges and TO have any authority to do anything about it. You can tell the judges who can listen to you or do nothing. You don't get to run on the field and throw your own red card when you see someone cheating in a soccer game...

You have no 'RIGHT' to inject yourself anywhere in a tourney. It is not your job or your place... if you want to help, address your issues to the JUDGE.

I think some people get off on being 'the smart guy' and love standing around FLGS spouting rules... they don't play in the events but go to them so they can play judge. Those people should be removed from spectating as they cause lots of trouble... There are way more troublemakers than honest, informed, courteous spectators. If you have an issue go get a judge.

I suspect many Judges probably have better things to do than have nosey spectators being 'Hey judge! juuuuuugde Table 3 forgot to roll a psychic test, you need to stop the cheating or the tourney will collapse under corruption! Juuuuuuudge!"

gardeth wrote:
Of course, our area (Middle TN) has a pretty laid back group of tourney goers, and alot of tournament questions get handled by player concensus (both those playing and not playing the game in question) before going to a judge.

I also would rather ask the neighbor table, or have another tourney participant interject himself in our game than a random spectator. I feel it is fine to ask the next table over for an opinion on a rule (remember, ASK). People involved in the tourney have more of legitimate claim than spectators. I have a feeling in real life, us tourney participators have been getting our rules resolved ourselves without spectators just fine.

Best thing to do is inform a judge to take care of the situation but only if its something really game breaking or major rules breaking. I agree with what nkelsch says though about not informing the judge on every little transgression.

I think people's opinions often depend on which party they subconsciously identify with more. Some people identify with the guy who didn't place because an opponent used a rule wrong. Some people identify more with the guy who doesn't want to be interrupted while he lies, cheats and steals his way to the top.

...and I'm not even talking about warhammer anymore.

lord_blackfang wrote:I think people's opinions often depend on which party they subconsciously identify with more. Some people identify with the guy who didn't place because an opponent used a rule wrong. Some people identify more with the guy who doesn't want to be interrupted while he lies, cheats and steals his way to the top.

...and I'm not even talking about warhammer anymore.

So you're accusing those who disagree with your position as being liars, cheaters, and thieves? Impressive, most impressive.

No, no, not at all. Just like nkelsch totally didn't call the other side troublemaking smart guys who should be removed. It was all meant in really broad terms, not to be applied to anyone in this tread.

lord_blackfang wrote:No, no, not at all. Just like nkelsch totally didn't call the other side troublemaking smart guys who should be removed. It was all meant in really broad terms, not to be applied to anyone in this tread.

Fair enough.

lord_blackfang wrote:I think people's opinions often depend on which party they subconsciously identify with more. Some people identify with the guy who didn't place because an opponent used a rule wrong. Some people identify more with the guy who doesn't want to be interrupted while he lies, cheats and steals his way to the top.

...and I'm not even talking about warhammer anymore.

Im identifying with being the judge :p People coming to me with questions (Even about others) causes less hassle.

Kirasu wrote:

Im identifying with being the judge :p People coming to me with questions (Even about others) causes less hassle.

I personally would like to hear the opinion of TOs who run events, especially large ones and their experiences or opinions of spectators involvement with games. I mean we have seen the result of spectators videoing games and causing drama mid-game, but I wonder if TOs have had other major issues with spectators or have a preference on how they feel spectators should act or if they have rules like "no spectators involved in games"

I trust their judgement as they have run more events and get the feedback of hundreds of gamers and spectators and judges over a lot of our anecdotal experiences... I can just say, I have observed spectators being wrong and harmfulw ay more than they were being resonable and helpful... but mostly because good judges are very much on top of things and getting a judge it usually quite easy in a well-run event. I am always surprised how many games a good judge can keep tuned in to and keep on top of rule issues.

nkelsch wrote:
I suspect many Judges probably have better things to do than have nosey spectators being 'Hey judge! juuuuuugde Table 3 forgot to roll a psychic test, you need to stop the cheating or the tourney will collapse under corruption! Juuuuuuudge!"

[

I agree I dont think judges need to know every little thing, the situation here is to say "hay mate you forgot your psychic test" and it goes no further than that.

The last thing you could possible ask it that no one tell a judge or tells the players that's goes totals against the rules and general fair play.

I think this has become an important debate we could do with the top tournaments judges and organisers to say what they would like us to do as there is clearly a difference in opinion.

nkelsch, when you/myself/others were using the term "spectator", I assumed we were mostly talking about other participants at the tournament. It actually hadn't occurred to me that we'd be talking about random passersby in a game store or the like... I'd be much less comfortable taking their input than that of another tournament participant (who, if I know them, I'll often ask for a quick rules confirmation / interpretation / etc, before going to a judge, if it's a fairly obvious thing that we've forgotten or are trying to figure out).

RiTides wrote:nkelsch, when you/myself/others were using the term "spectator", I assumed we were mostly talking about other participants at the tournament. It actually hadn't occurred to me that we'd be talking about random passersby in a game store or the like... I'd be much less comfortable taking their input than that of another tournament participant (who, if I know them, I'll often ask for a quick rules confirmation / interpretation / etc, before going to a judge, if it's a fairly obvious thing that we've forgotten or are trying to figure out).

A person who is playing at the table next to you isn't a spectator... and in tourneys it is fairly common to ASK for input from the table next to you but not so much interject without asking. I don't know about you, but I don't have time to pay attention or watch my neighbors game to see if they are doing things right and I don't know who does. Sometimes games end early and participants mull around, but even then, that is the last 10 minutes of the game... if they have been playing it wrong all game and they are one of the last people finishing... that is a judge issue.

So when someone has enough time to stand there and watch your game and actually follow what you are doing enough to know you skipped a psychic test, they are spectating and have nothing better to do than stand there and watch you play. I have to say that is farily common at small RTTs or large GTs in my experience. In small RTTs, Joe FLGS who can't play all day comes expecting to play a little warhammer and then finds a tourney which he can't participate in, but he has 4 hours to killl... BAM... self-appointed judge officiating an event in his local stomping grounds where he is used to forcing his interpretation of rules on people. Don't get me started on the people who stand there with a video cam and think they are not in the way as they are physically looming over your table...

I think it is fine for people to ask their neighbors for a quick rule dispute... I think spectators need to go away.

You'd rather ask someone that has a higher chance of benefitting from the rules dispute going a certain way?

I would... as I can also (usually) count on their being somewhat knowledgeable if they're in the tournament, as opposed to someone who isn't playing.

So many times I want to interject on a guy who is playing an army I know very well wrong in the sense he is cheating, such as CSM and thinking taking a familiar lets you cast multiple powers even though it plainly says not. I had said things in the past but the TO of the store pulled me aside, explained he was appreciative of what I was doing but unfortunately I had to sew the lips shut. Now I just sit back, grit my teeth and watch.

I would have spoke up. Its happened a couple of times with me. I had a player say that Monstrous Creatures would hide behind smaller unties then jump up and shoot. Basically he could get a cover save when i shoot but when he shoot i got nothing.

I then screamed at him for 10 minutes....

Frogboy14 wrote:I would have spoke up. Its happened a couple of times with me. I had a player say that Monstrous Creatures would hide behind smaller unties then jump up and shoot. Basically he could get a cover save when i shoot but when he shoot i got nothing.

I then screamed at him for 10 minutes....

Welll... he might have been right... If the smaller unit was tightly packed and covered 50% of him, he would indeed get a cover save. And if the bugs were close to his base and he had an unobstructed view over them then he could indeed shoot without cover being given. It is very situation and is 'get down and check' but I am not going to agree it is impossible.

It is common for orks to do this with grots and totally legal. LOS is from the eyes of the model. THe only difference is TMCs need total blocking 50% not just interviening models... Not likley, but is possible.

Kurgash wrote:So many times I want to interject on a guy who is playing an army I know very well wrong in the sense he is cheating, such as CSM and thinking taking a familiar lets you cast multiple powers even though it plainly says not. I had said things in the past but the TO of the store pulled me aside, explained he was appreciative of what I was doing but unfortunately I had to sew the lips shut. Now I just sit back, grit my teeth and watch.

I don't get this response. As has been said many times in the thread... why not just go get a judge / the TO? I'd bet the TO was simply telling you not to interrupt... but certainly if you see someone playing a rule significantly wrong, you should mention it to those in charge if it's bothering you that much.

I have no respect for a TO that when told a problem doesn't do anything about it.

I haven't played in a 40k tourney but I've played in a number of magic the gathering tourneys and the same types of things tend to happen, people butting in with differing rules interpretations, etc.

If you feel the need to but in then go get a judge as I really don't want to hear it from someone that isn't actually involved in the tournament in any way. Intentional or not knowing the rules and calling out your opponent when he plays a rule wrong is part of the skill of the game and shouldn't be interfered with by anyone who isn't a judge.

Droma wrote:Intentional or not knowing the rules and calling out your opponent when he plays a rule wrong is part of the skill of the game and shouldn't be interfered with by anyone who isn't a judge.

While I think the main part of this statement is true... if you mean that your opponent is intentionally playing a rule wrong for their own advantage (underlined, but hard to tell what you meant due to grammar) that person is cheating, and would hopefully be forced to forfeit the game by the TO, imo, if not be kicked out of the event.

Especially if it's intentional, getting a judge instead of saying something directly would be even more important, I think- since then the appropriate consequences can happen, instead of the player simply covering up and saying "my bad".

That is what I meant RiTides.

If my opponent is playing a rule wrong either because he forgot the rule or how it works, or he's intentionally playing it in his favor because of my inexperience I still don't want someone that is not a judge jumping into my game as knowing and remembering the rules is part of the skill of the game.

If you see someone cheating or just ignorant because of inexperience get a judge instead of interfering in the match yourself.

Edit: I will say though that if someone is blatantly cheating. IE my back is turned and he's moving models half an inch to make sure he's in assault range then by all means say something.