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I'm trying gear up for Ard Boyz and I'm trying to refine a competitive list for Purifiers. Here's what I've come up with so far.

HQ
Castellan Crowe - 150pts

Troops
5 Purifiers - 189pts
2 Psycannon
2 Halberd
1 Daemon Hammer
Rhino

5 Purifiers - 189pts
2 Psycannon
2 Halberd
1 Daemon Hammer
Rhino

5 Purifiers - 189pts
2 Psycannon
2 Halberd
1 Daemon Hammer
Rhino

5 Purifiers - 189pts
2 Psycannon
2 Halberd
1 Daemon Hammer
Rhino

5 Purifiers - 189pts
2 Psycannon
2 Halberd
1 Daemon Hammer
Rhino

5 Purifiers - 189pts
2 Psycannon
2 Halberd
1 Daemon Hammer
Rhino

Elite
Venerable Dread - 195pts
2x TL Autocannon
Psybolt Ammo

Venerable Dread - 195pts
2x TL Autocannon
Psybolt Ammo

Fast Attack
10 Interceptors - 320pts
7 Halberd
2 Psycannon
1 Master Crafted Daemon Hammer
Psybolt Ammo

Heavy Support
Dreadnought - 135pts
2x TL Autocannon
Psybolt Ammo

Dreadnought - 135pts
2x TL Autocannon
Psybolt Ammo

Dreadnought - 135pts
2x TL Autocannon
Psybolt Ammo

Total 2399pts

I'm stuck on the last 101pts. I think a Xenos Inquisitor would be nice, OR strip the Interceptors and adding a last ven psyrifle dread. Any thoughts?

Nasty list, If you are going to strip the Interceptors go for a Vindicare (less points then the Ven. and serves a good role.)

I would say drop the interceptors, get a storm raven and turn one of those purifier groups into a counter-assault force with 10 halberds + purifying flame

Drop the interceptors and go for another ven dread with twin-psyautocannons. Also, a Vindicare assassin may be a good investment to help you deal with any really high AV like Land Raiders. Finally, go for 1 more Purifier in each squad with a halberd, I tend to find that 2 isn't enough.

(Calculates...) I don't know if you'll have the points for everything I mentioned but I don't have my codex on me atm so good luck anyway

Iranna.

l0k1 wrote:I'm trying gear up for Ard Boyz and I'm trying to refine a competitive list for Purifiers. Here's what I've come up with so far.

HQ
Castellan Crowe - 150pts

Troops
5 Purifiers - 189pts
2 Psycannon
2 Halberd
1 Daemon Hammer
Rhino

5 Purifiers - 189pts
2 Psycannon
2 Halberd
1 Daemon Hammer
Rhino

5 Purifiers - 189pts
2 Psycannon
2 Halberd
1 Daemon Hammer
Rhino

5 Purifiers - 189pts
2 Psycannon
2 Halberd
1 Daemon Hammer
Rhino

5 Purifiers - 189pts
2 Psycannon
2 Halberd
1 Daemon Hammer
Rhino

5 Purifiers - 189pts
2 Psycannon
2 Halberd
1 Daemon Hammer
Rhino

Elite
Venerable Dread - 195pts
2x TL Autocannon
Psybolt Ammo

Venerable Dread - 195pts
2x TL Autocannon
Psybolt Ammo

Fast Attack
10 Interceptors - 320pts
7 Halberd
2 Psycannon
1 Master Crafted Daemon Hammer
Psybolt Ammo

Heavy Support
Dreadnought - 135pts
2x TL Autocannon
Psybolt Ammo

Dreadnought - 135pts
2x TL Autocannon
Psybolt Ammo

Dreadnought - 135pts
2x TL Autocannon
Psybolt Ammo

Total 2399pts

I'm stuck on the last 101pts. I think a Xenos Inquisitor would be nice, OR strip the Interceptors and adding a last ven psyrifle dread. Any thoughts?

Add a basic Techmarine, can give bolster defensives to a ruin to give some of your dreds a +3 cover save while shooting. Throw him in with one of your Purifer squads rhinos, because he has a power weapon or power fist attacks and you can stack his Hammerhand on the unit he is in.

In the about 20 games I have played with a Vindicare, he is over rated. You have plenty of Psycannons to deal with high AV.

I say keep the Interceptors. They fill an important role in this list which nothing else can. They can reliably get across the table and into the enemy deployment zone. You don't want to be hamstrung by a simple Eldar list which has Pathfinders in trees on thier back board edge. His 2+ cover save (rerollable with fortune that you can't stop) will make that unit untouchable unless you get a rhino to pass all the way across the board. The Interceptors can shunt 30" and get to the Pathfinders to assault them and get rid of them.

The Parthfinders can also be Grey Knights in ruins with shrounding or anything else that is really tough to shoot off an objective. The Interceptors will fill a role you need to have.

For 101pts you have some options. You could take a brotherhood champion and stick him in a rhino. He can heroic sacrifice an important/expensive enemy character right out of the game.

You could take Inq. Coteaz by himself. He's another hammerhand to cast with a unit and he also has Sanctuary which could save you in a pinch. He lets you reroll the seize roll, but more importantly he can force your opponent to reroll his seize roll which means you won't get surprised by someone who seizes on you in Ard Boyz. Finally Coteaz will let your units shoot any deep strikers who drop down by your transports to melta them. He also lets you shoot Ymgarls who might jump you and it even allows you to deploy towards one flank if your opponent has a huge outflanking genestealer squad because you can shoot them to if they show up on that board edge.

I like having the interceptors for everything you said darth plus I can 30 inch shunt to contest objectives or move them into position to hit side/rear armour with the psycannons. The Halbred upgrades and Psybolt ammo for them is something I'm reconsidering.

I could use some more input before I finish my models please

I still say keep it the way it is and add in Coteaz for his seize the intiative power, sanctuary spell and enemy reserve power.

The cost for your interceptors is wrong. It should be 350pts by my calculations. I would cut down on the halberds in that unit to get it to 320pts (or 315pts if you drop all the halberds).

I would also drop 1 purifier squad for a min-strike squad (5x strikers w/psycannon in rhino). Then you should have enough to bulk up your purifier units to 6-men each (w/extra halberds).

Why the strike squad? 3 reasons - 1) as an objective sitter (or sacrificial unit in KP-games), 2) anti-DS defense and 3) so Crowe can take their ride in objectives games.

Wow, how did miss that? Thanks for the correction. I'm def taking all halberds off the interceptors. I'm going to run a practice game this weekend n see how coteaz does. Also, what do you think of running a mix if 3 rhinos and 3 psybacks? Though I am debating on whether or not to keep the interceptors, I'm expecting a lot of mech next weekend. I'm thinking of dropping the interceptors for a ven dread, adding another purifier with Halberd in each squad and making the rhinos into Razorbacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crowe 150pts
Coteaz 100pts

Troops
5 Purifiers 189pts
1 Hammer
2 Psycannon
2 Halberd
Rhino

5 Purifiers 189pts
1 Hammer
2 Psycannon
2 Halberd
Rhino

5 Purifiers 189pts
1 Hammer
2 Psycannon
2 Halberd
Rhino

5 Purifiers 189pts
1 Hammer
2 Psycannon
2 Halberd
Rhino

5 Purifiers 189pts
1 Hammer
2 Psycannon
2 Halberd
Rhino

5 Purifiers 189pts
1 MC Hammer
2 Psycannon
2 Halberd
Rhino

Elite
Venerable Dread 2x TL Autocannon Psybolt ammo 195 pts

Venerable Dread 2x TL Autocannon Psybolt ammo 195pts

Heavy Support

Dread 2x TL Autocannon Psybolt 135pts

Dread 2x TL Autocannon Psybolt 135pts

Dread 2x TL Autocannon Psybolt 135pts

Fast Attack
10 Interceptors 315
1 MC Hammer
2 Psycannon
7 Swords
Psybolt ammo

Total 2499pts

So got to try this list out against my buddy's BA, and was pleasantly surprised at how well it did. Coteaz didn't get to really do anything but I still believe he's worth running, especially in the traitor scenario I can stick the traitor with coteaz and his unit of purifiers and with sanctuary I can attempt to keep him somewhat safe.

As for the interceptors I was kind of disappointed, but I also forgot to use their psychic ability and he dropped a unit of assault marines and Dante near them and the assault next turn wasn't even fair. I noticed I was having a lil trouble with taking out his dread and baal predator and with 2 of the scenarios being victory points I'm thinking of dropping the interceptors to a 5 man squad and dropping psybolt ammo from them and adding a vindicare assassin, and if I have the points a 6th purifer with sword to a squad just for the traitor scenario. The vindicare can help me take out the high av targets that the dreads were having trouble with and also pick off enemy HQ's for easy points.

I'll have to check point costs when I get home but I should have a few points still after making this change. Any thoughts?

Change your Rhino for Razor w/psybolt ammo its only 10 more and have 36´ 3x Twinlinkek str 6 each. Change 6 you got 18 shots.


Think about.

Look at list I have playing and winning 90% of the games:

I had played a list 1850 with almost like your,

Coteaz
Vindicare
3xwarriors Razor LasPlas
3xwarriors Razor LasPlas
3xwarriors Razor LasPlas
6x Acolyte, 5x Storm Bolters, 1 meltagun, w/Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition
6x Acolyte, 5x Storm Bolters, 1 meltagun, w/Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition
6x Acolyte, 5x Storm Bolters, 1 meltagun, w/Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition
Rifledreads + SL (searchlight)
Rifledreads + SL
Rifledreads + SL
10x Purifiers, 4x Psycannons, MC Daemon Hammer, 5 Halberts with psyboltammo, w/Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition
6x Purifiers, 2x Psycannons, MC Daemon Hammer, 3 Halberts with psyboltammo, w/Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition

Its only 11 veicles, but Vindicare make alot of pressure in the opponet, and help with Landriders oo Thunderwolf cavalary, using Stormshield.


BRAX

This has been a subject of debate for me. Rhinos or Razorbacks? There is a very strong argument for both.

Rhinos are cheap, can fit 10 guys, have 2 firing ports for psycannons, can repair(which coupled with Fortitude makes for a very resilient vehicle), and chances are 1st turn the opponent will try to pop your transports so why put more points in transports when they're most likely going to get popped?

Razorbacks are only slightly more expensive, can fit 6 guys, no firing ports, can't repair, can run heavy weapons that have longer range.

I like both ideas here. Putting Psybacks in causes enemy target issues, and offers slightly longer range and your guys can disembark and continue to fire while your Razorback moves about adding more shots. But Psycannons can do more damage and potentially more shots if the Rhino isn't moving. With small squads it seems crazy to let them get out of their candy coated shell. Plus I only own 3 Heavy Bolter turrets lol. I'd like to get more feedback on the Rhino vs Razorback issue.

This is based on Vanilla Marines:
I used to run Razors, but since the transports job is to deliver the troops to the target I found the hatches on the rhino more effective. With the Razor you limited to 6" if you want to shoot. You get 3 shots (T/L) so your only killing a few boys a turn...not enough. Compared to putting a SternGuard unit in a Rhino, They move up 12" next to 30 Boyz, jump out. Hit with Heavy flamers/combi-flamers and double tap poison, your 30 boys is down to 5 and running. For smaller units just use the HF out the hatch.
I can sit back a fire the Squad heavy weapon or move in close and use meltas or flamers as required. For KP missions I can castle the troops and reserve the Rhinos. When they come on I can keep them far from the fight denying multiple cheap KPs.

Since shifting to Rhinos My Tac Squads have expanded in versatility; 5 guys or 10. Close in death dealer/objective grabbing or ranged LasBack, PlasBack, Missile-Back, MeltaBack.

Stick with the rhinos, razorbacks are paying points for a firepower downgrade. 2 psycannons from access hatch>bolter back. Why give up 4 or 8 psycannon shots for a TL heavy bolter?

Keep the interceptors, they add a speed element you just don't have.

Might drop a vendread for a vindicare to free up some points.

I don't see a need for coteaz if your not going to include henchmen. You have interceptors to warp quake, which is far better than I've been expecting you.

If you have a few leftover points that you're just not sure how to spend there is always the option of more purifiers. 30 bodies can end up being a bit light in an objective based game, and 1 remaining body is all it takes to deny a KP. If you scrap a vendread it might free up enough points to increase 2 squads to 10 man squads.

schadenfreude wrote:Stick with the rhinos, razorbacks are paying points for a firepower downgrade. 2 psycannons from access hatch>bolter back. Why give up 4 or 8 psycannon shots for a TL heavy bolter?

This would be true if it really was a question of 2 psycannons VS 1 heavy bolter. But it's not. GK are not like other marines. They don't hide in their little boxes.

It's 2 psycannons and 1 stormbolter (on the rhino) VS 2 psycannons, 3 stormbolters and a heavy bolter, because GK want to be on the ground, shooting 24" at things with all of their guns once the Dreads start de-meching the enemy.

The moment there are troops within 24", GK should no longer be in their tanks. Move the Razorback 6-12 until you are within 24" of thing that a stormbolter can hurt, get them out (ideally in cover, but w/e, you have 30 marines...), and shoot things.

6 squads worth of storm bolters (3*6=18) will put 12 wounds on t4, which is 4 dead marines, which is pretty good (basically an extra squad dead a turn. The heavy bolters on the razorbacks will kill you another 4 marines a turn, on average, or cause 5 glance/pens on AV11. A S6 razorback is a threat to infantry and AV10-11, whereas a rhino is fairly useless once the squad is out of it (yay, a storm bolter...).

Loot at it like this. You have your rhino with 2 psycannons shooting out of it, and i have my razorback with 5 guys sitting next to it, shooting. Assume both of us moved. We're going to each get 4 psycannon shots, you get 2 storm bolter shots, i get 6, and 3 twin linked heavy bolter shots. We each have 6 of these units. If we all shoot at marines, i'll kill about 15, and you'll kill about 7. If we shoot at AV11, i'll get about 8 pens, you'll get about 5. i'll get 5.5 glances, you'll get 2.6 glances. I can theoretically damage 12 tanks, you can only hurt 6 (since your tanks are useless VS tanks). And, my stuff only costs 60 points more.

Yes, taking your marines out of combat does make them more vulnerable, but it also lets them use the tools they are given, and it also gives the enemy a lot more targets to have to shoot at. If there is a rhino with 5 guys shooting out of it then it is obvious what to shoot at. If there is a razorback with 5 guys near it, you have to choose which one to shoot at. And, since they have a 24" inch range, you GK should not really be that close to the enemy at first, which helps reduce the number of things that can easily kill them. Long range things like missiles that can kill marines are the things you'll be targeting with your razorbacks and psycannons anyway, and cover helps when you can get it.

For 10 points, there really isn't a question as to which is better. Take razorbacks. Give them Psybolt Ammo. Every single time.

Wow jcd186. you got THE POINT.

Just some one that play with tactis understan that.



BRAX

I'm not sure where I fall on this issue, but jcd186 makes a good point. However, also consider your playstyle. Some people just don't feel comfortable going all out. If you're like me, your dice sometimes fizzle out spectacularly at random times, so sometimes you'll get out with guns blazing, and fail to kill more than one figure, no matter how many shots (and yes this happens about every other game-10 GH killing one guardsmen, 4TWC wounding 4 marines, you get the idea).

Sometimes it may serve you better to play it safe, and that's where a Rhino comes in handy. I've had a few games where I've moved up with my Rhinos and purifiers in them while staggering the Rhinos. My opponent moves up and starts combat, so when my turn rolls around I get out of one or two Rhinos and shoot, but one or two more Rhinos get 8 psycannon shots each from the safety of their Rhino for the turn. If they ignore the Rhinos I get 8 more, and those add up. Plus, you'll have a scoring unit that's safe for a few turns and can move, say 12 inches away if next turn is like turn 5 or something. In a game that only ends when the time is up or all units are dead, I'd almost never take Rhinos, but sometimes it's safer to just take the Rhinos and move as a group. If you play them correctly you'll soon find out which your prefer. Just my two cents.

In the current 'Ard Boyz I would DEFINITELY get a Vindicare. You can snipe the traitor in mission 1 and get 6KPs.(He's worth 5, plus the bonus you get for killing him +1). Also I would ditch the interceptors to beef up your Purifier squads.

I wonder would if 3 Rhino 3 Razorback work? I only have 3 heavy bolter turrets and you doubt I can get more in time. Anyway I wanted this list to be more of a gunline list si having the vindicare would be great. As for interceptors their only purpose in the army is to shunt last turn to contest an objective. With as much mech as I am expecting, and this unit only serving its purpose in 1 scenario I think its best to leave the whole unit out. Which gives me the points for vindicare, turn 3 rhinos to psybacks and a few extra purifiers.

Psychological terror it`s all in the game. Vindicare causes that. I had win some games just because my opponet want him out off the game, and usees lot of resosces to kill him. And left open flank for the rest, Coteaz make that too, I realy love see what they do to kill something that is not essencial for the army.

It´s just tell that in the razor have melta, he will put the Land Rider in the othar side of the table, at range of my Lascan, or pury with hammer.

BRAX

jcd386 wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:Stick with the rhinos, razorbacks are paying points for a firepower downgrade. 2 psycannons from access hatch>bolter back. Why give up 4 or 8 psycannon shots for a TL heavy bolter?

This would be true if it really was a question of 2 psycannons VS 1 heavy bolter. But it's not. GK are not like other marines. They don't hide in their little boxes.

It's 2 psycannons and 1 stormbolter (on the rhino) VS 2 psycannons, 3 stormbolters and a heavy bolter, because GK want to be on the ground, shooting 24" at things with all of their guns once the Dreads start de-meching the enemy.

The moment there are troops within 24", GK should no longer be in their tanks. Move the Razorback 6-12 until you are within 24" of thing that a stormbolter can hurt, get them out (ideally in cover, but w/e, you have 30 marines...), and shoot things.

6 squads worth of storm bolters (3*6=18) will put 12 wounds on t4, which is 4 dead marines, which is pretty good (basically an extra squad dead a turn. The heavy bolters on the razorbacks will kill you another 4 marines a turn, on average, or cause 5 glance/pens on AV11. A S6 razorback is a threat to infantry and AV10-11, whereas a rhino is fairly useless once the squad is out of it (yay, a storm bolter...).

Loot at it like this. You have your rhino with 2 psycannons shooting out of it, and i have my razorback with 5 guys sitting next to it, shooting. Assume both of us moved. We're going to each get 4 psycannon shots, you get 2 storm bolter shots, i get 6, and 3 twin linked heavy bolter shots. We each have 6 of these units. If we all shoot at marines, i'll kill about 15, and you'll kill about 7. If we shoot at AV11, i'll get about 8 pens, you'll get about 5. i'll get 5.5 glances, you'll get 2.6 glances. I can theoretically damage 12 tanks, you can only hurt 6 (since your tanks are useless VS tanks). And, my stuff only costs 60 points more.

Yes, taking your marines out of combat does make them more vulnerable, but it also lets them use the tools they are given, and it also gives the enemy a lot more targets to have to shoot at. If there is a rhino with 5 guys shooting out of it then it is obvious what to shoot at. If there is a razorback with 5 guys near it, you have to choose which one to shoot at. And, since they have a 24" inch range, you GK should not really be that close to the enemy at first, which helps reduce the number of things that can easily kill them. Long range things like missiles that can kill marines are the things you'll be targeting with your razorbacks and psycannons anyway, and cover helps when you can get it.

For 10 points, there really isn't a question as to which is better. Take razorbacks. Give them Psybolt Ammo. Every single time.

Depends on the army you are fighting. In some situations purifiers don't need to hide in their boxes, in other situations they would much more safe in their box. In other situations purifiers are safer standing out in the open than they are using their box for cover, case in point IG with a lot of long ranged pie will simply target the razorback with the pie and catch all 5 purifiers along with the razorback. The problem with bolterbacks is they don't have the option to hide in their box, because taking that option would take their psycannons out of play.

While I agree with the notion that purifiers don't have to hide in a box here is the problem I have with purifiers and bolterbacks. Why purchase a box when nobody is going to hide in it, and the troops the box is purchased for outgun the box? You could instead of buying the bolterbacks simply purchase more purifiers and field them in squads of 10. The additional psycannons will outgun the bolterbacks, the armies kill points will fall through the floor as 1KP for 10 purifiers<4 KP for 2 squads of 5 purifiers +2 bolterbacks and the army will have more scoring units as more purifiers=more scoring models. Upping a squad to full strength with an additional 5 purifiers and 2 psycannons cost about 25 points more than a pair of bolterbacks, and pack more firepower against infantry and mech.

If you're going to buy a box use the box. If you're not going to put your guys in a box take advantage of combat squads.

Going on foot is definetly a valid way to play GK, but the razorbacks do still have some advantages, IMO:

6 razorbacks w/ ammo cost 300 points. Those coints can buy us 10 purifiers with 4 psycannons for 280, with 20 points for...whatever else. I guess you could give them psybolt ammo, but that's generally crap, so we'll just say they took 2 hammers and the other 10 points are somewhere else. Not perfect, but what can you do?

Against marines, the 6 razorbacks outshoot the marines as long as the marines do not move. If they do move, the marines win by about 1 dead marine. Since movement is very important in this game, i'd say it might be about even, since maybe you wont move half the time.

Against tanks (AV11), the heavy bolters always get more glances, and beat the marines in pens if the marines move.

Against things that are AV12+, the psycannons are obviously better.

10 marines are deadlier in assault than a razorback :-P

Razorbacks can give cover to marines.

Razorbacks aren't scoring.

6 razorbacks can shoot at 6 targets. 10 marines can shoot at 1-2, depending on combat squads. They do give less kill points, though.

6 razorbacks can hold 6 squads of marines when they need to, until the time is right to jump out and fire. 10 marines can't hold any marines :-P

6 razorbacks lets you move 6-12" on turn 1 and disembark, which places you in midfeild, probably in range of the enemy (this is only if you moved 6" and are totally hugging their board edge, in which case don't get out of the tanks, or move 12" and hit them anyway, lol).

Razorbacks can tank shock.

In general, i like the razorbacks better than just bringing more troops. If i could bring 5 marines OR 1 razorback, then fine, bring the marines. But if its a choice between 10 marines and 6 razorbacks, the marines lose out unless being on foot is the point of my entire list.

You buy the box, use it for a little while, then take the stuff out and hit your enemy in the face with it AND the box they came in :-P


Automatically Appended Next Post:

l0k1 wrote:I wonder would if 3 Rhino 3 Razorback work? I only have 3 heavy bolter turrets and you doubt I can get more in time. Anyway I wanted this list to be more of a gunline list si having the vindicare would be great. As for interceptors their only purpose in the army is to shunt last turn to contest an objective. With as much mech as I am expecting, and this unit only serving its purpose in 1 scenario I think its best to leave the whole unit out. Which gives me the points for vindicare, turn 3 rhinos to psybacks and a few extra purifiers.

I'd take as many razorbacks as you can get your hands on. Rhino's are not "bad," but they do not play to the strengths of the GK troops (stormbolters and 24" range guns that don't always want to be moving around).

I'd probably go with the changes you outlined above, and the best of luck to you at 'Ard Boys (unless you happen to be playing where i am, in which case PLEASE lose horribly to me!)!

Ok here's the new draft

HQ
Crowe 150pts
Coteaz 100pts

Elites
Vindicare Assassin 145pts

Ven Dread 195pts
TL Autocannon
Psybolt ammo

Ven Dread 195pts
TL Autocannon
Psybolt ammo

Troops
6 Purifiers 224pts
2 Psycannon
2 Halberd
1 Hammer
1 Sword
Razorback
Psybolt Ammo
Searchlight

6 Purifiers 224pts
2 Psycannon
2 Halberd
1 Hammer
1 Sword
Razorback
Psybolt Ammo
Searchlight

6 Purifiers 223pts
2 Psycannon
2 Halberd
1 Hammer
1 Sword
Razorback
Psybolt Ammo

6 Purifiers 213pts
2 Psycannon
2 Halberd
1 Hammer
1 Sword
Rhino

6 Purifiers 213pts
2 Psycannon
2 Halberd
1 Hammer
1 Sword
Rhino

6 Purifiers 213pts
2 Psycannon
2 Halberd
1 Hammer
1 Sword
Rhino

Heavy Support
Dread 135pts
2x TL Autocannon
Psybolt ammo

Dread 135pts
2x TL Autocannon
Psybolt Ammo

Dread 135pts
2x TL Autocannon
Psybolt Ammo

2500pts even

Or I can drop Coteaz, the psyback to rhinos, and 1 purifier w/ sword and buy a 5 man squad of interceptors with a psycannon, hammer, 3 swords and 4 more search lights. What do you think?

I'm just going to hang my head and hope I don't see any grey knight armies in my area.

The codex is so damn broken, and when I look at lists like these, then look at my chaos army, I just wonder: how do I defeat that? 20 twin-linked missile launcher shots and there's no way I can get the first strike ever, unless they're foolish and put themselves where my rhino moving 12 and deploying will put my marines within 12" to shoot, meaning I'll always be eating 48 stormbolter shots and 48 psycannon shots before I really get the chance to strike. Not even counting the psybacks or vindicare.

Yeah, the list looks fine. Enjoy your codex. Personally, I think it's always a good idea to include the grenade caddy techmarine, but you've got enough firepower to murder anyone, and then HEY! You're also better in assault, so what's the drawback?

Thanks, from what I can tell though if you can get through the hail of artillery fire and into assault range with my guys then its not as bad as everyone thinks. Yea, I have Hammer Hand and Cleansing Flame, and a couple Halberds but other than that we go at the same time and they take wounds like normal marines. Granted most of my attacks ignore armor but I still have to roll my saves which can fail and seeing as I only have 6 guys per unit, 1 of which always goes last, its not hard to stack wounds on them.

Grey knights are not scary in assault at all actually... My chaos will lose their rhinoes but soon as we get close its scary for the grey knights... if Chaos can get into melta range they can take GK pretty easily... thats if they can get into melta range...

I think people anticipate every unit to have all the special grenades in addition to having all force Halberds, which is a scary thought but to do that would take up 3 elite slots for tech marines plus HQs and that's all they can do is assault so the artillery aspect is just about gone.

Since its the night before ard boyz and I've stopped getting feedback I'm going to stick with my last posted list and I'll post how I did sometime this weekend. Wish me luck and best of luck to everyone else attending ard boyz!